Mersey-Dee the future of the curve formerly known as Halton

[8H]

I posted some of this the other day but it rather got lost in an argument that was just starting on the thread I chose . I think it is an important issue in its own right though so am posting it here again.!

A big problem for the effectiveness of public transport, but for rail travel especially between North Wales, the Wirral and Merseyside has been progressively created by the march of the car mad economy.

Firstly from the late 1960’s onwards, the withdrawal of through trains from Birkenhead via Hooton to any station beyond Chester, and the subsequent reduction in track capacity.

The additional closure of the Cheshire Lines Committee routes into Chester Northgate and the especially silly ( for being quite recent ) abandonment of the potentially speedy link from the Bidston Wrexham line at Hawarden Bridge into central Chester that could have served western Wirral very well have left us where we are today with the M53/A540/A41 and the A55/A483 rampant, but increasingly clogged with traffic.

Through trains to destinations beyond Chester from Liverpool and maybe Wirral too should be the main aim, but improved connectivity should be another principal consideration and the fullest track doubling between Wrexham and Chester for example clearly enhances possibilities.

It is only 30 miles from Wrexham to Liverpool, either via Bidston, or via Hooton, but there are no through services, the best times still take over an hour, many journey times are around 80 minutes, and some are comparable to those back in the 1960's.

Are these the service specifications to achieve the next most important aim of modal shift and get people out of cars?

The Liverpool, Rock Ferry, Hooton, Chester route has an excellent frequency and long hours of operation. However all trains call at all stations, save some that skip Capenhurst. The old track formation was four lines from Birkenhead to just beyond Hooton allowing the Birkenhead Woodside to Paddington trains to go semi fast to Chester taking about 30 minutes, at least 5 minutes faster than they manage today even with electric acceleration.

The Bidston Wrexham all station services are pedestrian too, and despite much improved facilities at Bidston it is still not a great interchange point.

If the Mersey Dee curve ( the curve formerly known as Halton ) now offers restoration of Liverpool Chester through trains, then this route must not become yet another slow all stations trundler.

The present once weekly summer Saturday parliamentary service does Chester to Runcorn in 21 minutes, add another 15 or so to get to Lime Street and you have competitive times against the motor car, and very good journey times indeed from and to Liverpool South Parkway for the airport, Runcorn being just 7 minutes from LSP.

Getting passengers from Wrexham and the North Wales coastal stations into Merseyside quicker or closer to the times achieved on the A55 or A483/M53 should be the aim, and a quicker rail service is the way forward.

Let us assume an approximate direct Chester Runcorn Liverpool Lime Street service time of 35/40 minutes.

Through services extended to Wrexham and Ruabon would take just under and over an hour respectively, immediately competitive with the car journeys.

The journey time advantages to the North Wales coast are not as greatly enhanced, and neither would journeys to Shrewsbury and beyond compared with other routes already available. However slower direct journeys are often popular with passengers who don’t like changes. The three different operators from London to Birmingham serve different markets successfully.

If you don't make the Liverpool Runcorn Chester route semi fast the only option left is to left is to requadruple Rock Ferry to Hooton. Although that would be expensive it could get Liverpool Chester times down to 30 minutes, several minutes quicker than a car.

What do you lot think ??

 

[D1009]

I posted some of this the other day but it rather got lost in an argument that was just starting on the thread I chose . I think it is an important issue in its own right though so am posting it here again.!

A big problem for the effectiveness of public transport, but for rail travel especially between North Wales, the Wirral and Merseyside has been progressively created by the march of the car mad economy.

Firstly from the late 1960’s onwards, the withdrawal of through trains from Birkenhead via Hooton to any station beyond Chester, and the subsequent reduction in track capacity.

The additional closure of the Cheshire Lines Committee routes into Chester Northgate and the especially silly ( for being quite recent ) abandonment of the potentially speedy link from the Bidston Wrexham line at Hawarden Bridge into central Chester that could have served western Wirral very well have left us where we are today with the M53/A540/A41 and the A55/A483 rampant, but increasingly clogged with traffic.

Through trains to destinations beyond Chester from Liverpool and maybe Wirral too should be the main aim, but improved connectivity should be another principal consideration and the fullest track doubling between Wrexham and Chester for example clearly enhances possibilities.

It is only 30 miles from Wrexham to Liverpool, either via Bidston, or via Hooton, but there are no through services, the best times still take over an hour, many journey times are around 80 minutes, and some are comparable to those back in the 1960's.

Are these the service specifications to achieve the next most important aim of modal shift and get people out of cars?

The Liverpool, Rock Ferry, Hooton, Chester route has an excellent frequency and long hours of operation. However all trains call at all stations, save some that skip Capenhurst. The old track formation was four lines from Birkenhead to just beyond Hooton allowing the Birkenhead Woodside to Paddington trains to go semi fast to Chester taking about 30 minutes, at least 5 minutes faster than they manage today even with electric acceleration.

The Bidston Wrexham all station services are pedestrian too, and despite much improved facilities at Bidston it is still not a great interchange point.

If the Mersey Dee curve ( the curve formerly known as Halton ) now offers restoration of Liverpool Chester through trains, then this route must not become yet another slow all stations trundler.

The present once weekly summer Saturday parliamentary service does Chester to Runcorn in 21 minutes, add another 15 or so to get to Lime Street and you have competitive times against the motor car, and very good journey times indeed from and to Liverpool South Parkway for the airport, Runcorn being just 7 minutes from LSP.

Getting passengers from Wrexham and the North Wales coastal stations into Merseyside quicker or closer to the times achieved on the A55 or A483/M53 should be the aim, and a quicker rail service is the way forward.

Let us assume an approximate direct Chester Runcorn Liverpool Lime Street service time of 35/40 minutes.

Through services extended to Wrexham and Ruabon would take just under and over an hour respectively, immediately competitive with the car journeys.

The journey time advantages to the North Wales coast are not as greatly enhanced, and neither would journeys to Shrewsbury and beyond compared with other routes already available. However slower direct journeys are often popular with passengers who don’t like changes. The three different operators from London to Birmingham serve different markets successfully.

If you don't make the Liverpool Runcorn Chester route semi fast the only option left is to left is to requadruple Rock Ferry to Hooton. Although that would be expensive it could get Liverpool Chester times down to 30 minutes, several minutes quicker than a car.

What do you lot think ??

I agree with much of what you say, and it gets down to the basics of what the modern railway is for? Should it improve the lot of short distance or medium/long distance travellers? The former seems to have been winning in terms of reviatlising old infrastructure recently, but as I grew up in Wallasey and used to use the Birkenhead Woodside to Paddington trains to go trainspotting at Chester, I would love to see fast trains returned to that route, but I fear it's a bit fanciful.

 

[merlodlliw]

The Welsh Government Ministers reply to "Staying On Track In North Wales" last week was very positive about the curve,A statement to come out next month(so I understand) will be equally positive, this is also from a WG quango recommending the curve for North Wales trains to the Minister.

 

[8H]

That's positive and interesting from Wales, it's really good to know that the relevant authorities and Network Rail have spotted the opportunity to get a job done.

My real hope though is that the capacity of the track and the speed of journeys they actually specify for a new service will be sufficient to achieve modal shift from the car.

An all stations 690 minute timing Liverpool Chester as per 1960's and 70's would be a rotten consequence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That should have read 60 minutes of course not 690 !! AArrgghh!!

 

[merlodlliw]

Should have added all four Welsh Political shades are very much in favor of North Wales/Liverpool trains via the curve. Im pleased to note the wording better West/East services was also part of the "One Wales" Statement, made a few years ago by another WG Minister.

 

[cle]

I could see a slower Wrexham service and a faster one to Holyhead/Bangor. Potential between Liverpool and North Wales must be massive. Runcorn could also add another connection option for London trains, especially on HS2 (if better timed than a Crewe connection).

 

[OxtedL]

Well, where do we want prospective Halton Curve services to call between Chester and Lime Street?

Certainly everyone expects Runcorn - there's not a lot that doesn't call there currently. We'd also surely expect Liverpool South Parkway. It offers lots of connectivity for South Liverpool, Merseyrail, the Airport, Widnes and perhaps some other places.

This leaves Frodsham, Helsby, and the stations between South Parkway and Lime Street.

One (indeed, probably both) of those first two will want a call, as this corner of Cheshire has poor rail connections to Liverpool. They're likely to get these calls if Cheshire West contributes any money to the scheme.

The stations north of South Parkway will almost certainly need to be skipped I would by now have thought, as the business case for the link will be sensitive to a fast journey from Chester and points further afield.

So that's Chester, Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn, South Parkway, Lime Street.

Is that too much for the OP, or about acceptable?

The other question is whether we eventually get a new station on the curve, but with the current rush to get it done with other work in 2016 there's no immediate likelihood of this.

 

[fowler9]

Well, where do we want prospective Halton Curve services to call between Chester and Lime Street?

Certainly everyone expects Runcorn - there's not a lot that doesn't call there currently. We'd also surely expect Liverpool South Parkway. It offers lots of connectivity for South Liverpool, Merseyrail, the Airport, Widnes and perhaps some other places.

This leaves Frodsham, Helsby, and the stations between South Parkway and Lime Street.

One (indeed, probably both) of those first two will want a call, as this corner of Cheshire has poor rail connections to Liverpool. They're likely to get these calls if Cheshire West contributes any money to the scheme.

The stations north of South Parkway will almost certainly need to be skipped I would by now have thought, as the business case for the link will be sensitive to a fast journey from Chester and points further afield.

So that's Chester, Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn, South Parkway, Lime Street.

Is that too much for the OP, or about acceptable?

The other question is whether we eventually get a new station on the curve, but with the current rush to get it done with other work in 2016 there's no immediate likelihood of this.

I am guessing this service would be put on the slow lines through South Liverpool. A lot of the LM services already use the slow lines to avoid blocking the junction at South Parkway for the CLC route.

 

[8H]

Well they do have to stop somewhere I agree!

Runcorn and LSP are indeed a must.

There are other ways of connecting Helsby and Frodsham to Liverpool however, although slower, through better links via Ellesmere Port.

I think the Liverpool Chester end to end journey time is the critical point and if it is a car beater, it will be very successful.

 

[merlodlliw]

Well they do have to stop somewhere I agree!

Runcorn and LSP are indeed a must.

There are other ways of connecting Helsby and Frodsham to Liverpool however, although slower, through better links via Ellesmere Port.

I think the Liverpool Chester end to end journey time is the critical point and if it is a car beater, it will be very successful.

The Ellesmere Port to Helsby link, is a problem area,its Northerns & no one seems interested to take it on with more passenger(I have not seen Mersey show any interest,the only likely candidate) for some reason E Port to Helsby is part of Northerns franchise committment,like an Island.

 

[8H]

Yes you are right, it's a bit like Liverpool Ormskirk services compared to Ormskirk to Preston, only worse!

Better linking for South Wirral and Ellesmere Port to Warrington seems worth doing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So that's Chester, Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn, South Parkway, Lime Street.

Sounds like a 50-minute run with those stops - slower than the ME electric service (45 minutes, 4tph).
Helsby and Frodsham stops would cripple it as a through service.
You can't avoid the crawl over the long curve between Frodsham and Runcorn (approach controlled at both ends), and any fast/slow shenanigans around Speke and Wavertree will slow it further.
Might be different if it is an EMU service (off the back of possible Warrington-Chester electrification).

But I agree the politics is likely to deliver an unattractive stopping service.
Didn't Halton want a new station on the curve?

 

[Buttsy]

Sounds like a 50-minute run with those stops - slower than the ME electric service (45 minutes, 4tph).
Helsby and Frodsham stops would cripple it as a through service.
You can't avoid the crawl over the long curve between Frodsham and Runcorn (approach controlled at both ends), and any fast/slow shenanigans around Speke and Wavertree will slow it further.
Might be different if it is an EMU service (off the back of possible Warrington-Chester electrification).

But I agree the politics is likely to deliver an unattractive stopping service.
Didn't Halton want a new station on the curve?

Wouldn't the various works that are going into the Halton curve going to speed things up a little with getting onto and off of the curve?

I would suggest that the service only need stops at Frodsham, (Halton), Runcorn & Liverpool South Parkway

 

[merlodlliw]

LNW-GW Joint;
would the Halton system look like the Saltney work,link here then scroll down for the picture with this text http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1403e.htm

Text & picture in North Wales Rail newsboard dated 31st March.

and much progress was made over the weekend, as this view shows. The new junction, completely relaid, takes the form of a new turnout to a line which briefly runs parallel to the Holyhead route before turning off to become the new 'up' line towards Wrexham, passing the crossover which will be used by trains from Wrexham after briefly joining the 'down' coast line at the former junction site, in the distance in this picture. All tracks have been designed for 50 mph running.

This type of junction layout, which can also be seen in the remodelled layout at Cheadle Hulme where the Manchester to Crewe and Macclesfield lines diverge, makes us of stanadrd parts, and avoids the use of the traditional, but hard-to-maintain, 'diamond crossing' at a double track junction.

Sorry I can not just link the picture,too technical for me, I presume this system is cheaper to install besides maintain.

 

[Gareth]

So that's Chester, Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn, South Parkway, Lime Street.

I think one of the RUSs suggested exactly this on an hourly frequency. LNW-GW Joint is right that this would be no quicker and probably a bit slower than the Merseyrail service but this only really applies if you want to get from Chester to central Liverpool and vice-versa. A Halton Curve service would improve links between South Liverpool, Runcorn, North Cheshire and Chester. It could also be the precursor for reopening Ditton.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

LNW-GW Joint;
would the Halton system look like the Saltney work,link here then scroll down for the picture with this text http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1403e.htm
Sorry I can not just link the picture,too technical for me, I presume this system is cheaper to install besides maintain.

There's plenty of elbow room at Saltney and Rossett, but none at either end of the Halton Curve.
One end is straight off the Weaver viaduct onto a steep embankment, and the other is in a cutting on a curve in the WCML with an adverse cant.
Plus restrictive signalling (speed differential, probably not allowed to stand on the viaduct etc).
The Runcorn end would be not unlike Golborne Junction.

 

[OxtedL]

Sounds like a 50-minute run with those stops - slower than the ME electric service (45 minutes, 4tph).

Indeed - I think even with just a stop at Runcorn you'd be lucky to get it down below 40 minutes, looking at current timings.

Here I think we can see the reason the link hasn't yet happened been opened - it's easy to forget that via Runcorn is a good 10 miles further to Liverpool than the Merseyrail route, being about 27 miles compared to 17.

Chester West favoured a through service to Wrexham (at least they did in some previous iteration of the proposals). What can be run as a direct service could perhaps be key to any business case.

 

[Gareth]

But like I said, such a service isn't just about going between Chester and central Liverpool. An hourly diesel service is never going to compete with a quarter hourly electric service. However, if you live in South Liverpool, or you want to get there from Chester, then it suddenly becomes a lot easier, as does access to the airport.

It also helps Runcorn as a rail head, and therefore services into an out of Liverpool southbound. It gives options for places like Frodsham & Helsby that may not be possible from Chester. Same with Liverpool South Parkway. A passenger from this area may want to go to Aigburth or Hunts Cross or any other South Liverpool suburb. Change at South Parkway for Merseyrail, or the bus for any particular 'burb not on the network. If you're from that part of Liverpool and want to get to North Wales, then it can be worth getting this service to Chester, rather than travelling northwards, and therefore away from North Wales, into Liverpool city centre and then back out again on the Merseyrail.

I could see such a service being a logical extension of the existing Blackpool-Liverpool South Parkway service as run by Northern Rail.

 

[merlodlliw]

I recall the "Liverpool Club" as it was known in Rhyl, the then timings were ex Lime Street 1625 arrive Rhyl 1750 then on to Afon Wen, this was late 50s.I don't recall the stops other than Chester. This was followed into Rhyl by the "Manchester Club" ex Manchester 1630 into Rhyl 1800,stops were Warrington/Chester/Prestatyn/Rhyl & on to Llandudno.

Just memories now.

 

[cle]

Isn't the idea to open this up as a regional service, rather than a stopping one? It shouldn't stop between Runcorn and Chester - the other stops can be served another way.

If both Wrexham and the Coast are deserving of services, we could either see splitting at Chester or multiple frequencies.

In the latter's case, Frodsham could be served by a Wrexham service. But I prefer extending Merseyrail to Helsby and Frodsham.

 

[The Planner]

I wouldn't expect anything more than a single track chord at around 40mph to be fair.

 

[pablo]

I wouldn't expect anything more than a single track chord at around 40mph to be fair.

That would be pathetic. It used to have dual track; four points and two diamond crossings. Why is everything so difficult to do nowadays

 

[cle]

I'd say the demand would be more Bicester than Todmorden personally, and could be strategically quite interesting, with lots of potential options but we'll see... no doubt the cheapest option will be taken.

 

[merlodlliw]

That would be pathetic. It used to have dual track; four points and two diamond crossings. Why is everything so difficult to do nowadays

I agree, see my earlier thread about cheaper crossings,but this is NR with its single market, like the Saltney/Rossett redouble just up the road,sufficient for the extra Cardiff service says NR Wales Head Honcho,forgetting the biggest market is North next door.
I presume the Curve will be dual track, if not play hell plus that's something the politicians wont have thought about.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wouldn't expect anything more than a single track chord at around 40mph to be fair.

Your a fair person Planner,whats your reason for this, why not faster.

 

[Gareth]

I think the key is to get it up and running. If it's successful (and I believe it should be) it'll justify further services down the line; improving service generating more demand and all that.

 

[OxtedL]

The curve is 1.7 miles - if it is 40mph then even with very slow turnouts at both ends we're talking probably no more than 5 minutes to travel its length.

Until you hit more than two trains an hour that ought not to present massive timetabling problems, so double tracking looks a bit extravagant.

 

[The Planner]

Oxted is correct, why does it need to be twin track? What sort of train spec are you expecting that is going to need that sort of infrastructure? Given its length and the likelihood of the approach control the chances of actually achieving much more is slim anyway. There is only finite money for these schemes and it is about getting the best value whilst delivering what it needs to. Nothing is gold plated anymore.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I agree, see my earlier thread about cheaper crossings,but this is NR with its single market, like the Saltney/Rossett redouble just up the road,sufficient for the extra Cardiff service says NR Wales Head Honcho,forgetting the biggest market is North next door.
I presume the Curve will be dual track, if not play hell plus that's something the politicians wont have thought about.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Your a fair person Planner,whats your reason for this, why not faster.

I suspect the Cambrian and HOW have sucked up anything that the Welsh Govt will give before the new franchise in 2018. There won't be any Additional north to south trains and if some sources are to be believed Gerald will lose its first dinner and become the Manchester club train. The curve will be one for the new franchise.

 

[Bevan Price]

I recall the "Liverpool Club" as it was known in Rhyl, the then timings were ex Lime Street 1625 arrive Rhyl 1750 then on to Afon Wen, this was late 50s.I don't recall the stops other than Chester. This was followed into Rhyl by the "Manchester Club" ex Manchester 1630 into Rhyl 1800,stops were Warrington/Chester/Prestatyn/Rhyl & on to Llandudno.

Just memories now.

Summer 1961.
Lime St. 16:25
Chester 17:11
then Prestatyn, Rhyl, Abergele, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Jn, Deganwy & Llandudno (arr. 18:32)
Afonwen portion detached at Llandudno Jn., (arr. 18:18, dep. 18:42) calling Bangor, Caernarvon**, and stations to Afonwen (except Llanwnda), arr. 20:23, and forming last train of the day to Afonwen.
** - As then shown in timetable; now spelt Caernarfon.

In the reverse direction was a 07:40 Llandudno to Liverpool Lime St, Chester dep. 09:20, calling at Helsby, Frodsham & Runcorn (09:49), arriving Lime St. at 10:16.

 

[Soyyo]

Excellent post and very interesting thread.

My personal wish would be for Liverpool to Llandudno stopping at LSP Runcorn Chester and along the coast. What do more knowledgable members think of this ever happening?