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Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

Bletchleyite

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I see where they're coming from, as I would like to plan a trip to do a proper farewell to the 507s and 508s. I've already done so twice, in case it was my last chance to go, but I will happily do it again. Now I can stay overnight again, it is a much more feasible trip and I can do it properly rather than squeeze everything into a 5 hour window. I have no plans to do an overnight trip until my second vaccine has been had though, just not quite comfortable with it yet, so the longer it takes to get the 777s ready the better really!

Even so, I'm happy to wait for an expected date when it's ready. I'm also keen to have the 196s enter service, it's been a long wait, although I understand they're having lots of non-pandemic issues.

End of the day, we've waited this long, we can wait some more :) It's saving me money, so I can't complain!

Obviously we've missed out on farewells to 442s and Pacers due to COVID, which is sad, but as 50x are being retained for a good while yet (at least until the work has been done at Southport to allow for double 777 formations to be used) I don't think there's any danger of that.
 
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Techniquest

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Obviously we've missed out on farewells to 442s and Pacers due to COVID, which is sad, but as 50x are being retained for a good while yet (at least until the work has been done at Southport to allow for double 777 formations to be used) I don't think there's any danger of that.

Indeed. I was fortunate to do my 142 farewell on the Rhymney branch in early December 2020, having done a 'farewell' bash on 142s and 143s in September 2019 so I've technically covered both of the Welsh Pacer classes, just once more recently than the other! Didn't get a chance to do the MML farewell sadly, but I do have the GTi HSTs so it's not all bad.

Good grief, it's been 2 years since the last full-length HST GWR farewell! I just realised that, that's gone fast.

Anyway, back to topic! The work at Southport, this is platform/track related isn't it? I'm very out of touch with what's happening, so much so it was only last Friday (during an epic session of boredom in A&E) that I updated my needs list with 710s, 720s, 745s, Azumas and other stuff!
 

Ribbleman

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There is a programme of works to be carried out between Southport and Hunts Cross and between Liverpool and Chester that will need to be completed before a pair of coupled 777 units can be used on those routes. Many of the changes relate to signal positions but the reversing siding south of Liverpool Central Northern Line platform also requires modification, though this will not involve excavation to lengthen it. At Southport the solution being looked at involves lengthening platforms towards Marks & Spencer but does not require trains to appear on the ground floor of the shop! Until Network Rail has carried out the programme, expected to be during 2023, 14 x Class 507 sets will be retained after all the 53 x Class 777 are in service to allow longer formations to run on those routes at busy times.
 

yorkie

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Just a gentle reminder this thread is about Merseyrail Class 777

The forum has plenty of spare capacity for threads to discuss any other topic (such as farewell trips on the trains they are replacing) ;)
 

Techniquest

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There is a programme of works to be carried out between Southport and Hunts Cross and between Liverpool and Chester that will need to be completed before a pair of coupled 777 units can be used on those routes. Many of the changes relate to signal positions but the reversing siding south of Liverpool Central Northern Line platform also requires modification, though this will not involve excavation to lengthen it. At Southport the solution being looked at involves lengthening platforms towards Marks & Spencer but does not require trains to appear on the ground floor of the shop! Until Network Rail has carried out the programme, expected to be during 2023, 14 x Class 507 sets will be retained after all the 53 x Class 777 are in service to allow longer formations to run on those routes at busy times.

Thanks for that, a very handy post which has genned me up quite well on the situation :D
 

507020

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I used to love Twitter, but I stopped using it (save for sharing photos with a couple of people) last summer. Good heavens, that's almost a year ago! I don't remember exactly why I got fed up of it, but I do have a lot more time to do things of interest now.

I also banished Facebook and Instagram from my daily use some months ago, one of the best things I've ever done. So I get where you're coming from, I shouldn't need to go to social media to get the information I might need on something. Fine if they're keeping people genned up, that's good, but if they can't be bothered to post an update on their website's specific page for it that's just weird. It doesn't have to be often, but a regular update would be nice, a once a month sort of thing.
I agree social media and what it has become used for is incredibly damaging to society, but using a specific app which otherwise should be banished to have an intelligent conversation with a specific person about something pertinent does not constitute ‘use of social media’ if you ask me.

David Powell is responsible for the fleet replacement, not updating the website.
The thing is, you don't* need information on when 777s will enter traffic. As you are an enthusiast you might want that information, but you don't need it, because the train service is operating using 507/508s.

Thus, they have no obligation to provide it, and as I've outlined they could only be disadvantaged if they did, e.g. they say by Dec 2021 and it's actually Feb 2022 they look stupid unnecessarily.
In fact, as the 777 fleet is publicly owned, being directly bought outright from Stadler by Merseytravel and therefore paid for partly out of council tax in the Liverpool City Region, the procurement is publicly accountable and thus they are obliged to provide information to the residents of the boroughs of Sefton, Wirral, Liverpool, Knowsley, St Helens and Halton, who paid for them (perhaps also West Lancashire and Cheshire West and Chester where they will also run) but not to enthusiasts in other parts of the country, although frequent updates made to people in the relevant areas should theoretically be visible to people elsewhere.

Level boarding is also dependent on lifts being installed at Hillside and other stations that are still not accessible.

There is a programme of works to be carried out between Southport and Hunts Cross and between Liverpool and Chester that will need to be completed before a pair of coupled 777 units can be used on those routes. Many of the changes relate to signal positions but the reversing siding south of Liverpool Central Northern Line platform also requires modification, though this will not involve excavation to lengthen it. At Southport the solution being looked at involves lengthening platforms towards Marks & Spencer but does not require trains to appear on the ground floor of the shop! Until Network Rail has carried out the programme, expected to be during 2023, 14 x Class 507 sets will be retained after all the 53 x Class 777 are in service to allow longer formations to run on those routes at busy times.
This appears to be highly accurate, as you mentioned the Headbolt Lane unit 777053 which was not part of the original order. I’ve seen the number 14 x 507s to be retained quoted before so this sums it up nicely. It should be noted that only 507s are to be retained, no 508s as they are in worse condition. I wonder if any 507s will ever run to Headbolt Lane, or if the Kirkby line will be run entirely by 8 car 777s from the start. The extension may be battery operated yet.

It has now come to light that Network Rail will no longer exist by 2023, so Great British Railways had better carry out these works as intended, or there will be problems. At any points on the network where there is a disused section of platform behind a fence, will the fence be moved back 10 metres and part of the platform refurbished and reopened, or will only the signals be moved, leaving the cab doors beyond the end of the platform at both ends of the train?

The underground stations have still not received the platform height standardisation for the sliding step and neither has Southport. I can see them re-excavating the cut and cover tunnel at Central and building 4 platforms to reduce overcrowding.
 
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Bletchleyite

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The reason the passenger doors are where they are on the end vehicles is to allow the back to hang off short platforms. Were it not for this they would have 2 pairs in each vehicle.
 

Skie

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The underground stations have still not received the platform height standardisation for the sliding step and neither has Southport. I can see them re-excavating the cut and cover tunnel at Central and building 4 platforms to reduce overcrowding.

The underground station refurbs also addressed platform heights, getting them to the Network Rail standard height though they werent too far off anyway. Given Merseyrail has stations approaching 175 years old it was the older stations most in need of standardising.
 

507020

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The reason the passenger doors are where they are on the end vehicles is to allow the back to hang off short platforms. Were it not for this they would have 2 pairs in each vehicle.
Yes but is this the desired solution everywhere or will some platforms eventually be lengthened to allow the cab doors to be on the platform?
The underground station refurbs also addressed platform heights, getting them to the Network Rail standard height though they werent too far off anyway. Given Merseyrail has stations approaching 175 years old it was the older stations most in need of standardising.
Are those the refurbs that took place before the order was placed with Stadler? If the height there is correct I will be impressed. I expect Maghull North is both long enough for an 8 car 777 and the correct platform height for the sliding step, having only been built after the order was placed and the specification was known.

Southport has definitely had no work done to it, except exploration to see what the trackbed was filled in with when the platforms were shortened in the 1970s. At the far end of platform 1 the gap increases significantly. By far the worst I’ve seen is at Northwich, where there is something like a 14 inch step up onto a 150. Burscough Junction isn’t much better.
 

Skie

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Yes but is this the desired solution everywhere or will some platforms eventually be lengthened to allow the cab doors to be on the platform?
No, there is no point.

Are those the refurbs that took place before the order was placed with Stadler? If the height there is correct I will be impressed. I expect Maghull North is both long enough for an 8 car 777 and the correct platform height for the sliding step, having only been built after the order was placed and the specification was known.
NR have a target/standard height for platforms and the trains were ordered based on a floor level at that standard height. Simples.
 

MattRat

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Short video on YouTube released today by Modern Railways.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like final checks before driver training. How long does driver training usually take for news trains, roughly? Form there, we can guess a rough timeline.
 

Bob figgis

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So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like final checks before driver training. How long does driver training usually take for news trains, roughly? Form there, we can guess a rough timeline.
The guy at the end of the video talks about mileage accumulation taking place for the first four units, once 1500 (fault free I presume) miles are run, he does say Merseyrail will be “accepting them”. Which should be happening over the “next month or so”. Then onto driver training and I have no clue as to how long that will take. Will they pass out all crews before entering them into service or will it be a piece meal exercise. Probably a finger in the air job and see which way the wind blows.
 

MattRat

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The guy at the end of the video talks about mileage accumulation taking place for the first four units, once 1500 (fault free I presume) miles are run, he does say Merseyrail will be “accepting them”. Which should be happening over the “next month or so”. Then onto driver training and I have no clue as to how long that will take. Will they pass out all crews before entering them into service or will it be a piece meal exercise. Probably a finger in the air job and see which way the wind blows.
It's just I'm sure I've heard it said somewhere driver training usually takes about 6 months. That would be 7 months total minimum. Add in Christmas holidays and it would look like late January/early February 2022. That would be another year without them, but oh well, better safe than sorry.
 

Ribbleman

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The guy at the end of the video talks about mileage accumulation taking place for the first four units, once 1500 (fault free I presume) miles are run, he does say Merseyrail will be “accepting them”. Which should be happening over the “next month or so”. Then onto driver training and I have no clue as to how long that will take. Will they pass out all crews before entering them into service or will it be a piece meal exercise. Probably a finger in the air job and see which way the wind blows.
I was told that Merseyrail will want about 8 units accepted and some crews trained before putting 3 into service to cover the Kirkby line. 3 more will be used for training other crews whilst there will be 2 sets spare. Then build up usage from there as more sets are accepted and crews trained. However, the last I heard there was no agreement sorted out between management and unions as to the specific duties of the second crew member.

It's just I'm sure I've heard it said somewhere driver training usually takes about 6 months. That would be 7 months total minimum. Add in Christmas holidays and it would look like late January/early February 2022. That would be another year without them, but oh well, better safe than sorry.
6 months might be right for someone new to the role of train driver. For existing drivers it will be a far shorter period.
 

MattRat

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6 months might be right for someone new to the role of train driver. For existing drivers it will be a far shorter period.
That's probably how I heard about the number, with someone talking about new driver training. Do you know the rough time for drivers 'simply' switching trains?
 

Skie

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That's probably how I heard about the number, with someone talking about new driver training. Do you know the rough time for drivers 'simply' switching trains?
It depends on the existing units vs the new ones. For virtually identical units it’s days for conversion training, for entirely new trains it’ll be many weeks. 6 months is far too long though.
 

MattRat

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It depends on the existing units vs the new ones. For virtually identical units it’s days for conversion training, for entirely new trains it’ll be many weeks. 6 months is far too long though.
Let's say 8 weeks for a nice round 3 months total. That puts us in September :)

I do hope this guess it at least close.
 

507020

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It depends on the existing units vs the new ones. For virtually identical units it’s days for conversion training, for entirely new trains it’ll be many weeks. 6 months is far too long though.
Does it make a difference how long the driver has been driving a single type of unit. Some Merseyrail drivers could potentially have been driving 507 this for over 40 years, which might make it a bit harder. (In practice anyone who is been a driver that long will likely retire on the introduction of such a different fleet)
Let's say 8 weeks for a nice round 3 months total. That puts us in September :)

I do hope this guess it at least close.
You’re so optimistic about them being introduced on time. I hope it is around September. That seems quite reasonable now. Let’s hope the unions agree.
Merseyrail will want about 8 units accepted and some crews trained before putting 3 into service to cover the Kirkby line. 3 more will be used for training other crews whilst there will be 2 sets spare.
Will that 3 sets mean only 4 car services run to Kirkby? Once the 777s are cleared for the Kirkby line will Kirkby services be entirely operated by 777s from that point onwards or will it still see 507s? When more units are accepted will the first 8 car services run to Kirkby? I don’t suppose an 8 car set will fit into the platform at Kirkby, so will we have to wait for Headbolt Lane to open?
 

L401CJF

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I'd be cautious about any time frame estimates. There's still no union agreement for any driver training...
Does anybody know were we are up to regarding the dispute over guards?

Last I heard they had reached an agreement but apparently not?
 

InOban

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It depends on the existing units vs the new ones. For virtually identical units it’s days for conversion training, for entirely new trains it’ll be many weeks. 6 months is far too long though.
I remember a poster who drives in the Netherlands said, AIR, that for brand new trains training lasted a week!
 

jamesst

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Does anybody know were we are up to regarding the dispute over guards?

Last I heard they had reached an agreement but apparently not?

The final agreement has yet to be agreed and signed by Merseytravel. And thats from before Covid.
Aslef won't talk regarding anything for the drivers until the guards have settled.
 

Ribbleman

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Does it make a difference how long the driver has been driving a single type of unit. Some Merseyrail drivers could potentially have been driving 507 this for over 40 years, which might make it a bit harder. (In practice anyone who is been a driver that long will likely retire on the introduction of such a different fleet)

You’re so optimistic about them being introduced on time. I hope it is around September. That seems quite reasonable now. Let’s hope the unions agree.

Will that 3 sets mean only 4 car services run to Kirkby? Once the 777s are cleared for the Kirkby line will Kirkby services be entirely operated by 777s from that point onwards or will it still see 507s? When more units are accepted will the first 8 car services run to Kirkby? I don’t suppose an 8 car set will fit into the platform at Kirkby, so will we have to wait for Headbolt Lane to open?
Assuming that Covid has not and will not change matters and that agreement is reached with the unions, the plan is to convert the Kirkby line first, followed by Ormskirk and then make a start on Wirral Line services before finishing with Southport-Hunts Cross. Post-Covid will inevitably mean an examination of passenger loadings on each route but the expectation is that the majority of 8-car workings will be Southport-Hunts Cross and Liverpool-Chester. This is all confirmed in the June Modern Railways article. That is not to say that there will not be any 8-car workings on the other lines but with the increased passenger capacity that a single 777 has over that of a 507/508, it should suffice for those routes for most of the time. This is on the basis that frequencies will return to every 15 minutes.
 

507020

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Assuming that Covid has not and will not change matters and that agreement is reached with the unions, the plan is to convert the Kirkby line first, followed by Ormskirk and then make a start on Wirral Line services before finishing with Southport-Hunts Cross. Post-Covid will inevitably mean an examination of passenger loadings on each route but the expectation is that the majority of 8-car workings will be Southport-Hunts Cross and Liverpool-Chester. This is all confirmed in the June Modern Railways article. That is not to say that there will not be any 8-car workings on the other lines but with the increased passenger capacity that a single 777 has over that of a 507/508, it should suffice for those routes for most of the time. This is on the basis that frequencies will return to every 15 minutes.
If lines are converted does this mean all services on a line will be operated entirely by 777s from that point onwards or will we see a mixed fleet on the same line at some point? If Ormskirk/Kirkby services are 777s and Southport/Hunts Cross aren’t then we will see both running through the core section in the tunnel won’t we?
 

jamesst

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If lines are converted does this mean all services on a line will be operated entirely by 777s from that point onwards or will we see a mixed fleet on the same line at some point? If Ormskirk/Kirkby services are 777s and Southport/Hunts Cross aren’t then we will see both running through the core section in the tunnel won’t we?

Yep
 

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