Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Mordac]

A small number will have batteries for off 3rd rail running and Merseryrail have confirmed already that testing of this mode will take place on the Ormskirk to Preston line.

All units have small batteries for depot shunting etc anyway.

Class 777 are also easily convertible to facilitate pantographs for overhead running.

These features and options were factored in from the beginning to make expansion on the network easier to do in the future.

How will they get the unit round the blocks at Ormskirk? Will it have to be dragged all the way around via the WCML?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see why this is the plan for testing because there are spare paths on the branch - the present hourly service has the two units passing on the WCML, so the test unit and the service unit could pass at Rufford. This may or may not require work to be done on the loop for it to be used as such as it hasn't been in years, I can't remember.

 

[prod_pep]

How long did it take between their arrival and completion of testing/ driver training?

507001 was the first to be delivered on 29/09/78 and it entered public service on 01/11/78, although its first working with passengers aboard was the Royal Special (with 507002) on 25/10/78. Less than a month between delivery and carrying passengers with 250 miles of testing in between. Worth noting that 002 was delivered after 001 but was still able to be used on the Royal Special. Things take a great deal longer these days!

All the 508s were originally used on the Southern Region but the first units (508042 and 508043) left the Southern in 1981. Quite a number were used in service on Merseyside with their original numbers; I know 508003 and 508014 were two more.

People have the 508s down as the Wirral Line's replacement stock but the first arrivals from the South were in fact for the Northern Line and were not introduced to Wirral services for several years (summer 1984 IIRC). 508134 - 143 were originally based at Hall Road, not Birkenhead North, replacing a handful of Class 503s which had been temporarily cascaded from the Wirral Line for use on the Kirkby - Garston service.

Originally, 38 Class 507s had been ordered and this is reflected in the carriage numbering gaps (64400-04 are missing) and the order may have been scaled back because it was always anticipated that the 508s would transfer north to cover the shortfall.

Excellent photos by the way, The Sel.

 

[S&CLER]

I can see why this is the plan for testing because there are spare paths on the branch - the present hourly service has the two units passing on the WCML, so the test unit and the service unit could pass at Rufford. This may or may not require work to be done on the loop for it to be used as such as it hasn't been in years, I can't remember.

I would have thought there were more spare paths between Ellesmere Port and Helsby, as well as easier access from the rest of the Merseyrail system. But it's great news anyway.

 

[TheSel]

... Excellent photos by the way, The Sel.

Many Thanks.

Ditto for the additional gen. Interesting reference to Hall Road shed - visible behind the shot of 508040 at the platform, and now demolished for new housing.

 

[73001]

I would have thought there were more spare paths between Ellesmere Port and Helsby, as well as easier access from the rest of the Merseyrail system. But it's great news anyway.

I suppose it's only 20 mins from Ormskirk to Kirkdale if anything happens and it needs dragging back. It's a long way back with complicated reversals and tunnel running from E/port. If the buffers are removed at Ormskirk, is normal operation permitted during the day? i.e. can the two daytime services meet head-on without any special permissions?

 

[M28361M]

I would have thought there were more spare paths between Ellesmere Port and Helsby, as well as easier access from the rest of the Merseyrail system. But it's great news anyway.

Agreed, there are no buffer stops in the way at Ellesmere Port, dedicated platforms at Helsby where trains can reverse without getting in the way of the "main line", and very few other trains (three Northern services per day and the occasional freight, and that's it).

What might count against the Ellesmere Port line is that it is quite remote from a depot in the event of problems?

 

[Bertie the bus]

I can see why this is the plan for testing because there are spare paths on the branch - the present hourly service has the two units passing on the WCML, so the test unit and the service unit could pass at Rufford. This may or may not require work to be done on the loop for it to be used as such as it hasn't been in years, I can't remember.

The passing loop at Rufford is used. There is a Network Rail test train down the branch a couple of times a year and the service train passes that at Rufford. The is also an MPV RHTT in the autumn which passes service trains there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The passing loop at Rufford is used. There is a Network Rail test train down the branch a couple of times a year and the service train passes that at Rufford. The is also an MPV RHTT in the autumn which passes service trains there.

Cool, I may well have been thinking of Llanrwst.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose it's only 20 mins from Ormskirk to Kirkdale if anything happens and it needs dragging back. It's a long way back with complicated reversals and tunnel running from E/port. If the buffers are removed at Ormskirk, is normal operation permitted during the day? i.e. can the two daytime services meet head-on without any special permissions?

It'd take more than removing buffers, the tracks are not quite lined up any more. You'd need to relay the Preston side line and possibly make platform adjustments.

 

[73001]

It'd take more than removing buffers, the tracks are not quite lined up any more. You'd need to relay the Preston side line and possibly make platform adjustments.

Thanks... I didnt realise it was 2 separated lines now and it's not clear on Google maps. Seems an odd choice then. You'd think the Bootle branch might be a cheaper option then and it's only round the corner.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks... I didnt realise it was 2 separated lines now and it's not clear on Google maps. Seems an odd choice then. You'd think the Bootle branch might be a cheaper option then and it's only round the corner.

FWIW they have been separate for at least 25 years. (That makes me feel old! )

There used to be a connection on the other side, but that's long gone.

 

[73001]

FWIW they have been separate for at least 25 years. (That makes me feel old! )

There used to be a connection on the other side, but that's long gone.

Yes, I remember the through line too (also old!). I had just assumed the track that remained went straight through the remaining platform. I suppose it would be easier than Kirkby - isn't that a giant concrete block between the two?!
I look forward to it venturing out onto the Kirkby line anyway, I live about 2 mins away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I remember the through line too (also old!). I had just assumed the track that remained went straight through the remaining platform. I suppose it would be easier than Kirkby - isn't that a giant concrete block between the two?!

Indeed it is yes.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that thread is a Traction & Rolling Stock discussion to discuss Merseyrail Class 777s.

If anyone wishes to discuss infrastructure changes that are happening please create a new thread in the Infrastructure & Stations area; for speculation regarding changes that may or may not happen, please create a new thread in the Speculative Ideas section. As always, feel free to use an existing alternative thread if there is one.

 

[Elecman]

Yes, I remember the through line too (also old!). I had just assumed the track that remained went straight through the remaining platform. I suppose it would be easier than Kirkby - isn't that a giant concrete block between the two?!
I look forward to it venturing out onto the Kirkby line anyway, I live about 2 mins away.

Certainly is a great lump of concrete at Kirkby, Not sure that was considered necessary there but not at Ormskirk

 

[Kite159]

Certainly is a great lump of concrete at Kirkby, Not sure that was considered necessary there but not at Ormskirk

The lump of concrete at Kirkby is part of the footpath to lead underneath the bridge to the Northern platform, also where there is a gate which I assume gets locked up once the last Northern service departs (whereas at Ormskirk the Northern platform isn't locked up:

Spoiler

For comparison, Ormskirk:

Spoiler

----------

Back on topic, where it will be sad to see the PEPs gone, I can't wait to try out the new stock when it eventually enters service, although I still think the door reduction will cause issues during peak time. I presume the doors won't automatically open so at least on cold winter days you don't get cold air rushing in at some of the quieter stations

 

[Gareth]

There's the same amount of doors. Each unit will have 1-2-2-1 compared to 2-2-2. Yes, the new units are longer but not by much. There's an extra car but each car will be shorter. This is to allow the train to articulate more, which will come in handy on tight curves, particularly round the loop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's the same amount of doors. Each unit will have 1-2-2-1 compared to 2-2-2. Yes, the new units are longer but not by much. There's an extra car but each car will be shorter. This is to allow the train to articulate more, which will come in handy on tight curves, particularly round the loop.

Yes, I wonder if the new units will reduce the long-running rail/wheel wear issues on the Loop?

 

[Gareth]

That's the idea. One can only hope.

Also, I recall the wheels have a larger turn radius, with the loop in mind.

 

[D365]

Yes, I wonder if the new units will reduce the long-running rail/wheel wear issues on the Loop?

I believe that was one of the primary motives for picking a Stadler articulated design.

 

[Skie]

I wonder if they’ll limit the performance of the new units until the new timetable rolls out? They already have regular complaints of services arriving and then departing early, god knows how they’ll regulate the service if the new units are significantly faster.

 

[Grumpy Git]

That's the idea. One can only hope.

Also, I recall the wheels have a larger turn radius, with the loop in mind.

You mean a smaller turn radius? The smaller the turn radius, the tighter the turn.

 

[L+Y]

A small number will have batteries for off 3rd rail running and Merseryrail have confirmed already that testing of this mode will take place on the Ormskirk to Preston line.

That's great news- do you have a source for it? I've not seen this information elsewhere, but hopefully that's just my own ignorance!

FWIW they have been separate for at least 25 years. (That makes me feel old! )

There used to be a connection on the other side, but that's long gone.

The lines were severed at Ormskirk in June 1970, a few weeks after the last through passenger trains (freight ran right up until the final severing at the end of June). The avoiding line saw some limited use into the early 1970s, though I've not heard of any train using it after 1973- does anybody know different? Think the loop was disconnected in about 1987.

Sorry to risk going off topic!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The guards agreement is STILL not finalised. Theres STILL no agreement for driver training.
Any imminent test runs will be done by driver managers, overnight and just on the Kirkby line.

Surely the trains are under Stadler/Rosco control until they are accepted by Merseyrail, which could be ages yet (it says "summer" somewhere for driver training).
It took many months for Northern to accept their first trains from CAF, which had been running around with CAF crew and test personnel.
The Kirkdale depot is also now under Stadler control. I don't know if that means they are responsible for maintaining the legacy fleet.

 

[Geeves]

Stumbled on this earlier

They sure do look familar!

Coming soon to an underground station near you.

 

[notadriver]

I wonder if they’ll limit the performance of the new units until the new timetable rolls out? They already have regular complaints of services arriving and then departing early, god knows how they’ll regulate the service if the new units are significantly faster.

Trains of differing performance operate on other NR lines - isn’t it just down to the driver to regulate their train ?

 

[Skie]

Trains of differing performance operate on other NR lines - isn’t it just down to the driver to regulate their train ?

You’d think so, but it’s definitely been done before, with new units power knobbled until a timetable change (can’t remember where).

Should really be up to the guard to not allow a departure before the scheduled time, but who knows what the dispatch arrangements will be come their introduction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You’d think so, but it’s definitely been done before, with new units power knobbled until a timetable change (can’t remember where).

Should really be up to the guard to not allow a departure before the scheduled time, but who knows what the dispatch arrangements will be come their introduction.

Even if it's DOO the driver presumably has a watch and a diagram.

 

[LPJOHN]

Spotted at Kirkdale depot