Merseyrail customer issued £20 Penalty Fare due to there being no facility to print the ticket

[Bletchleyite]

@Bletchleyite . Can you collect tickets from Aughton Park, if not, where's the nearest to the journey origin station that you can?

Nearest physically would be the Northern TVM at Burscough Jn. Car ownership in the area is near 100% so some may well actually do that.

I did manage to get one journey to come up as e-ticket. Will have another play tomorrow.

Edit: it seems I now can get e-tickets for through journeys from Merseyrail onto other TOCs that offer e-tickets (e.g. Avanti), but not for internal Merseyrail journeys. This definitely wasn't the case yesterday, and indeed only became the case when I removed such a ticket from my basket. Someone hasn't been tweaking things, have they?

With Merseyrail not having scanners on their gatelines this sort of makes sense - staff can verify a small number for through journeys but less so everybody, and nobody buys Merseyrail internal tickets in advance as there's nothing to be gained by so doing.

Trainline could do with sorting this out too and then most of these issues would go away.

 

[nedchester]

All that money spent on new trains, platform upgrades and none on setting up TVMs, people are like water they'll take the easiest route, make it easier and simple to use when travelling on Merseyrail, more will use it, make it harder they'll go somewhere and complain to the media as we have seen.


Did you have any issues going through Merseyrail barrier ?

No barrier used so no issue but Northern cancelled the train from Chester to Warrington BQ so a delay repay claim is due (free ticket!)

 

[Vespa]

No barrier used so no issue but Northern cancelled the train from Chester to Warrington BQ so a delay repay claim is due (free ticket!)

Glad you can take things in your stride as I do

It would take somebody very robust and with confident legal knowledge to take on Merseyrail in the courts and create a case law with the media all over it.

Merseyrail do need their heads knocking and sort out their lack of consistency.

Merseyrail TVMs selling tickets even if it's just a rover ticket which is technically simple and straightforward to issue would reduce the number of PF being issued.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail TVMs selling tickets even if it's just a rover ticket which is technically simple and straightforward to issue would reduce the number of PF being issued.

There is a booking office at every Merseyrail station open for the full period of service. There isn't really any excuse, for a local journey, not to have a ticket.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Merseyrail TVMs selling tickets even if it's just a rover ticket

Very few Merseyrail stations have TVMs. They do all however have staffed ticket offices. On the odd occasion when the staff member is absent, there is usually a sign advising passengers to pay at destination, and that RPIs have been informed. The OP in this thread bought a ticket from an online seller, which required collection from a TVM. Neither Merseyrail ticket offices nor the few Merseyrail TVMs which exist support TOD collection.

 

[Foxcover]

The only reason I'd prefer to book my (local) Merseyrail journeys online, rather than at the staffed ticket office, is the service accuracy.

Yet again last night (Sunday) a family member had to correct Lime St underground ticket office who hadn't applied any discount for a 16-17 saver railcard presented for a simple journey to Hamilton Square, and they had to look it up when she insisted. Fourth or fifth time it's happened at either Lime St or Hamilton Square in probably as many weeks, and each time customer services have said they would follow up with the station managers. That's why I just want to buy it online.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I can't persuade even LNER's web site to sell an e-ticket for Lime Street to Hamilton Square apart from for collection, but of course there are non-Merseyrail TVMs at Lime Street from which a ticket could be collected. This also highlights the well known issue with Merseyrail that they do not sell off-peak return tickets, so the ticket from Lime Street to Hamilton Square has to be an Anytime Return. Holders of railcards can often obtain lower fares by booking off-peak returns to just beyond the MerseyRail network and stopping short. For example, Liverpool to Southport, with 16-17 saver railcard off-peak return can be done for £2.75 by booking to Meols Cop, compared to £3.65 if booked to Southport.

 

[DeRobeck]

There is a booking office at every Merseyrail station open for the full period of service. There isn't really any excuse, for a local journey, not to have a ticket.

My local Merseyrail station, Bache, doesn't have a booking office, just a single TVM. Neither does Capenhurst. I think they may be the only two on the network.

 

[185143]

My local Merseyrail station, Bache, doesn't have a booking office, just a single TVM. Neither does Capenhurst. I think they may be the only two on the network.

There's a TVM at Southport, Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool Central at least. Pretty certain there at least used to be one at Hamilton Square and there might be one at Ormskirk too.

 

[Vespa]

Very few Merseyrail stations have TVMs. They do all however have staffed ticket offices. On the odd occasion when the staff member is absent, there is usually a sign advising passengers to pay at destination, and that RPIs have been informed. The OP in this thread bought a ticket from an online seller, which required collection from a TVM. Neither Merseyrail ticket offices nor the few Merseyrail TVMs which exist support TOD collection.

As I said before there should be one in every station in order to be able to collect online tickets, when the queue is too long, staff is incompetetent, ticket office is closed or when you want to collect it the night before your journey in the morning.

As you said "Pay at destination RPI informed" it seems that doesn't work for some who got a Penalty Fare regardless.

Simply put TVMs makes it more convenient for passengers and reduces any possibility of Penalty Fares being charged leaving an aggrieved passenger and more bad PR for the TOC who will trot out the usual BS

"Lessons will be learned, will speak to the staff concerned and improve our training etc etc"

 

[Fawkes Cat]

My local Merseyrail station, Bache, doesn't have a booking office, just a single TVM. Neither does Capenhurst. I think they may be the only two on the network.

There's a TVM at Southport, Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool Central at least. Pretty certain there at least used to be one at Hamilton Square and there might be one at Ormskirk too.

Some misunderstanding here I think: I'm reading 'the only two' in @DeRobeck 's message as referring back to 'doesn't have a booking office' rather than 'just a single TVM'.

 

[DeRobeck]

Some misunderstanding here I think: I'm reading 'the only two' in @DeRobeck 's message as referring back to 'doesn't have a booking office' rather than 'just a single TVM'.

That's correct - I should have been clearer.

 

[stuart100100]

I think Little Sutton and Overpool don't have ticket offices either, and Ellesmere Port is only open part time in the week and closed at weekends

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tried a couple more examples with e-tickets - Aughton Park to Preston is a no. All a bit of a mess. Could Merseyrail at least sort out e-tickets to all destinations off their network?

Their day tickets are a bit of a barrier to them on their own network, I suppose. Though they could do their own app that could issue them to your phone (the website already does). It's not like, unless the RPIs are out, there would be any ticket check on the Merseyrail section of that anyway!

 

[Haywain]

This definitely wasn't the case yesterday, and indeed only became the case when I removed such a ticket from my basket.

If you had a ticket in your basket that could not be fulfilled to eTicket, it would not then be possible to add an eTicket to the transaction. All tickets have to be able to be fulfilled to the same fulfilment method. I don't think anybody would see a mix of ToD and eTicket in one transaction as a good idea.

Tried a couple more examples with e-tickets - Aughton Park to Preston is a no. All a bit of a mess. Could Merseyrail at least sort out e-tickets to all destinations off their network?

That is priced by Northern, so Merseyrail can't sort it out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you had a ticket in your basket that could not be fulfilled to eTicket, it would not then be possible to add an eTicket to the transaction. All tickets have to be able to be fulfilled to the same fulfilment method. I don't think anybody would see a mix of ToD and eTicket in one transaction as a good idea.

The thing I had in my basket was another Aughton Park to London Euston ticket, though.

That is priced by Northern, so Merseyrail can't sort it out.

Presumably, though, Northern don't allow e-ticket on that flow at Merseyrail's request, as they do offer it on Ormskirk-Preston (the same journey but for one stop). Northern allow e-tickets for all their "internal" flows so why else would they not allow it for that one?

 

[Haywain]

The thing I had in my basket was another Aughton Park to London Euston ticket, though.

But was it an eTicket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But was it an eTicket?

So, when I tried Aughton Park to Euston yesterday, it wouldn't offer as an e-ticket, only as pick-up. I accidentally left that in my basket.

When I tried again today in response to another post, I couldn't get it to offer an e-ticket again. But when I removed the previous one from the basket, it did.

Could have been a glitch, I suppose.

 

[Haywain]

So, when I tried Aughton Park to Euston yesterday, it wouldn't offer as an e-ticket, only as pick-up. I accidentally left that in my basket.

When I tried again today in response to another post, I couldn't get it to offer an e-ticket again. But when I removed the previous one from the basket, it did.

Could have been a glitch, I suppose.

No, that's things working as they should - to some extent, at least. With that non-eTicket in your basket you would not be offered anything else as an eTicket to go into the same basket but once you'd got rid of it you would be. That doesn't help to understand why it wasn't offered as an eTicket to start with but that's another matter.

 

[Skie]

Presumably, though, Northern don't allow e-ticket on that flow at Merseyrail's request, as they do offer it on Ormskirk-Preston (the same journey but for one stop). Northern allow e-tickets for all their "internal" flows so why else would they not allow it for that one?

Ormskirk to Preston won't offer one to me, but Ormskirk to Leeds will even though it goes via Preston or Merseyrail land via Lime Street.

Bizarre!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ormskirk to Preston won't offer one to me, but Ormskirk to Leeds will even though it goes via Preston or Merseyrail land via Lime Street.

Bizarre!

Weird. I have definitely had an Ormskirk to Preston e-ticket before.

 

[SickyNicky]

Ormskirk to Preston is available as an m-ticket but not an e-ticket. Here's the data:

<F r="01000" o="2281" d="2753" i="I">
<T t="SDR">
<FF u="991231" f="181016" p="181016" k="05Q4" fm="2" />
</T>
<T t="FL1">
<FF u="991231" f="210531" p="210531" k="08UQ" fm="1" s="100000" />
</T>
<T t="SDS">
<FF u="991231" f="181016" p="181016" k="05Q5" fm="2" />
</T>
<T t="CDR">
<FF u="991231" f="181016" p="181016" k="05P8" fm="2" />
</T>
<T t="7DS">
<FF u="991231" f="191009" p="191010" k="05P7" fm="1" s="100000" />
</T>
</F>

fm 2 is m-ticket. fm 1 is smartcard. TOD is allowed by default.

 

[option]

There is no minimum age for being issued with a Penalty Fare.

Unfortunately I have limited sympathy with claims that "I didn't know I couldn't collect my ticket". Trainline and other booking websites clearly indicate that a ticket cannot be collected at Merseyrail stations, for example:

View attachment 105497

Now, to be fair, it doesn't explicitly say "you must collect your ticket before you travel". But this is surely a matter of common sense - otherwise, what are you collecting the ticket for? - and in any case the NRCoT, Byelaws and Penalty Fares Regulations require that you hold a ticket before boarding, if ticketing facilities are available.

For Penalty Fares to be issued, the Regulations require that:


So unless passengers are alleging that Merseyrail don't provide signage complying with the Regulations, they will both be aware that they cannot pick up their ticket at their departure station, as well as that they must have a ticket before boarding the train.

It's certainly a sharp and very customer unfriendly policy by Merseyrail, but as far as I can tell, this is a matter of people not bothering to read warnings and signage.

but that graphic, as you've pointed out, does not say "you must have a printed ticket"

As for warnings & signage, there is simply far far too much of it, so most of it gets ignored due to 'information overload'


In the real world, people are buying tickets for lots of different things online, & they get the ticket emailed to them.
That ticket, viewable on their phone, is valid.

Presumably Merseyrail management go to the actual theatre booking office, in advance, & buy paper tickets?

I fail to see how it's "unfair" to tell people that you cannot collect your ticket at your departure station and must select a station with a participating machine instead.

If people don't read that warning, that's on them. It's not as if it's hidden in the small print somewhere.

To continue using this forum, you must only access it via a PC in a library 5miles from your home

I quite agree, Merseyrail have no excuse for not participating in the ToD system.

But that doesn't change the fact that people can't complain it's "unfair" they can't collect their ticket at their local station, if they have been warned of this before they buy their ticket - any more than they can complain that petrol is £1.50 a litre after they've filled their tank up.

But people no longer collect tickets for anything

IATA (airlines) had moved to 100% e-ticketing in 2008
Chiltern have had mobile tickets since 2007 https://www.theregister.com/2007/10/22/secure_tickets/

Seriously, what year is it in Liverpool???

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seriously, what year is it in Liverpool???

I think I'm allowed to say it as it's my city of birth, but Liverpool very often is a few years behind the rest of the world. Still much more of a cash culture than down South, for example, and don't even let me get started on the classic industrial relations issues which carry a very 1970s attitude.

 

[Watershed]

but that graphic, as you've pointed out, does not say "you must have a printed ticket"

Again, it would be better if it did - but surely it is a matter of common sense that if you're asked how you want to collect your ticket, it's because you need it before you travel. Not because it's some sort of paperweight to collect once you've made it to your destination!

As for warnings & signage, there is simply far far too much of it, so most of it gets ignored due to 'information overload'

There is indeed often too much unnecessary signage. But if the Penalty Fare signage is not 'readily visible' prior to boarding, Penalty Fares cannot be issued. If people decide not to observe 'readily visible' signage, that's their own fault. Just as you couldn't complain "the no smoking sign was hidden amongst many other signs!".

In the real world, people are buying tickets for lots of different things online, & they get the ticket emailed to them.
That ticket, viewable on their phone, is valid.

Presumably Merseyrail management go to the actual theatre booking office, in advance, & buy paper tickets?

And here it is made abundantly clear you must collect your ticket from a ticket machine. Not very customer friendly but it's quite clear.

To continue using this forum, you must only access it via a PC in a library 5miles from your home

The forum would be entitled to set such a condition. It wouldn't be very 'customer' friendly and as much as I might say "that's unfair, I demand to access it from my home PC", it wouldn't change a thing.

But people no longer collect tickets for anything

IATA (airlines) had moved to 100% e-ticketing in 2008
Chiltern have had mobile tickets since 2007 https://www.theregister.com/2007/10/22/secure_tickets/

Seriously, what year is it in Liverpool???

They do for railway tickets. E-tickets have taken over a significant proportion of the market but not everyone wants one. Merseyrail are of course decades behind the times on this, but that would hardly be the first time - their trains are more than 4 decades old!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So unless passengers are alleging that Merseyrail don't provide signage complying with the Regulations, they will both be aware that they cannot pick up their ticket at their departure station, as well as that they must have a ticket before boarding the train.

It's certainly a sharp and very customer unfriendly policy by Merseyrail, but as far as I can tell, this is a matter of people not bothering to read warnings and signage.

I am finding it a tad difficult to make a connection with the emboldened section of the first paragraph with the emboldened section of the second paragraph above.

 

[Watershed]

I am finding it a tad difficult to make a connection with the emboldened section of the first paragraph with the emboldened section of the second paragraph above.

Perhaps I can rephrase. Without a credible allegation of non-compliant signage, one can only conclude that people have failed to heed the signs warning that you must have a ticket before travelling.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Again, it would be better if it did - but surely it is a matter of common sense that if you're asked how you want to collect your ticket, it's because you need it before you travel. Not because it's some sort of paperweight to collect once you've made it to your destination!

That may seem obvious to me or you, but if you are someone who isn't used to travelling by rail, or maybe is used to travelling but only on m/e-tickets, maybe you would think its an option rather than a necessity. As in you can travel based on the confirmation email but if you don't want to risk your phone dying etc then you can optionally collect a paper ticket. Given pretty much every other industry basically works on etickets / confirmation emails these days, you can absolutely understand someone thinking that maybe a physical ticket isn't specifically needed to travel.

 

[Watershed]

That may seem obvious to me or you, but if you are someone who isn't used to travelling by rail, or maybe is used to travelling but only on m/e-tickets, maybe you would think its an option rather than a necessity. As in you can travel based on the confirmation email but if you don't want to risk your phone dying etc then you can optionally collect a paper ticket. Given pretty much every other industry basically works on etickets / confirmation emails these days, you can absolutely understand someone thinking that maybe a physical ticket isn't specifically needed to travel.

Anyone travelling under such a mistaken assumption would have to fail to read, and fail to comply with:

• their booking site's terms - which will include a term requiring you to collect your ticket before travel, for example Trainline's condition 4.2says:
  • Once you’ve booked, we’ll get your tickets to you as soon as possible, and always before your train, coach or bus departs.
  • ...
  • Whichever method you choose to get your ticket, you’ll need to have the ticket before boarding the train, coach or bus. For some services, it may be that collection at the station is the only possible option so you will need to leave enough time to collect your ticket before boarding your train. If you don’t show a valid ticket when asked, you’ll be responsible for paying your full fare again as well as a penalty fare
• the National Rail Conditions of Travel - which will be linked to during the booking process, and whiich state (para. 6.1):
  • You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one
• the 'readily visible' Penalty Fare signage displayed before they reached the platform.

And, in the case of a Merseyrail operated station as here, they would also have to walk past a booking office that's open.

Whilst ignorance of the law isn't a defence, I can appreciate that not everyone will read the first two documents - after all, who ever really reads the small print.

But failure to heed the latter two clues that - who knew - you actually need a ticket on you before boarding? Sorry, that's on them.

 

[John Luxton]

My local Merseyrail station, Bache, doesn't have a booking office, just a single TVM. Neither does Capenhurst. I think they may be the only two on the network.

Ellesmere Port booking office has limited opening times I think it is something like 06:30 to 14:15. I only noticed this when I used the station a couple of months ago and noticed that there was a notice on the door giving opening times. Are there others with limited opening? There is a TVM on the Liverpool bound platform.