Merseyrail Expansion

[Bletchleyite]

I thought Rainford Junction was the old name for the station, although I'm sure there is still signage stating the old name on the Rainford Bypass.

The station was Rainford Junction when there was a station in Rainford village as well. It's been just Rainford for as long as I remember it.

I can remember which sign you mean, but I think it is intended, in keeping with how road signs are formatted, to mean "Rainford Junction where there is a station", not "Rainford Junction station". Indeed here it is:

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The white border means "via a minor road", it doesn't signify that everything in the box is one thing - see the other one with three places in it.

 

[frodshamfella]

Extending the Merseyrail service that currently terminates at Hunt's Cross at least as far as Gateacre (with an intermediate halt) seems a relatively straightforward scheme that is wholly within the Liverpool City Region (so no cross-boundary issues). This re-opening was originally envisaged in the 1970s but somehow was shelved and subsequently overlooked. The line wouldn't need electrification now that battery class 777 emus are available.

Gateacre was where it was meant to go to as per the original plan of Merseyrail. It's densely populated , would be very useful.

 

[Djgr]

I thought Rainford Junction was the old name for the station, although I'm sure there is still signage stating the old name on the Rainford Bypass.

It was, although I was always told that the community around the station regarded themselves as a separate community to Rainford. What is true is that most of the population of Rainford is quite a distance from the railway station.

Gateacre was where it was meant to go to as per the original plan of Merseyrail. It's densely populated , would be very useful.

And this is where the transpennine footpath now runs, although perhaps this is not a problem?

 

[frodshamfella]

It was, although I was always told that the community around the station regarded themselves as a separate community to Rainford. What is true is that most of the population of Rainford is quite a distance from the railway station.


And this is where the transpennine footpath now runs, although perhaps this is not a problem?

It maybe ok, and could fit both, I dont know the footpath myself.

 

[Djgr]

It maybe ok, and could fit both, I dont know the footpath myself.

Starts in Southport, ends in Hornsea, about a dozen miles north of Hull. A fair amount of old railway lines, as well as some rather grim bits of post-industrial decay.

 

[frodshamfella]

The station was Rainford Junction when there was a station in Rainford village as well. It's been just Rainford for as long as I remember it.

I can remember which sign you mean, but I think it is intended, in keeping with how road signs are formatted, to mean "Rainford Junction where there is a station", not "Rainford Junction station". Indeed here it is:

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.com

The white border means "via a minor road", it doesn't signify that everything in the box is one thing - see the other one with three places in it.

Yes indeed that's the sign. I have friends there who still call the station Rainford Junction, although they never use and drive to St Helens to get to Liverpool. They say Rainford Stations service is pretty rubbish.

 

[AlastairFraser]

YES. One hundred times yes.
Merseyrail is only good for people living in the north of Liverpool or along the river. (I won't speak for the Wirral since I don't live there.) Anywhere else, it's useless. The suburbs are incredibly disconnected not only from Town, but from themselves. Its intercity service is good for Southport northward (north bias again) but for some reason Wigan eastward and Warrington southward (kind of) are excluded despite being similar distances.

Electrifying the Lime Street to Bank Quay (lower) route via Fiddler's Ferry is perhaps the most obvious addition to Merseyrail and it's shocking people talk about it like it's pie-in-the-sky stuff. The line via Speke and Sefton Park are sorely missing services, and the tracks and half of the OLE are already in place!! The Loop Line via Gateacre is the second most obvious, since a "main line" loop connecting most of the city and bringing services to the currently car-dependant suburbs is a HUGE deal. Statistics of rail usage per borough (?) show this without a shadow of a doubt. Source: LCR's 2023 Long Term Rail Strategy.

It makes a lot of sense, but it does require some more significant rebuilding, so I'd put it down as priority no. 5 on the top ten list of Merseyrail extensions.

My top 4 above that are (in descending order) -
1) Ellesmere Port to Helsby - easy to extend, improves connectivity between Cheshire and the Wirral/Liverpool, and it effectively restores service to Ince and Elton, a station serving several thousand residents already with the potential for a lot more housing and commercial development nearby.

2) Kirkby to Wigan/Skem - reinstates a direct train into Liverpool for a lot of people, after a gap of decades, as well as better and more reliable service from Wigan's suburbs into Wigan, and a potential park and ride upgrade of Upholland could take a lot of traffic off the M58 (congestion is generally not a problem on the road itself currently, but it is at the western terminus, Switch Island, where the M58, M57, A59, A5036 and A5758 intersect - a further rebuild to accommodate even higher traffic levels at Switch Island would be even more expensive but will have to be done at some point without alternative travel options to reduce traffic volumes.)

3) Bidston to Wrexham - a massive opportunity to connect a lot of the towns and villages of west Wirral to the rest of the peninsula and Liverpool, plus much better transport links for the somewhat deprived areas of Wrexham and Flintshire. Lower priority because funding will likely have to be secured from the Welsh government and it's a long extension which will need to be on battery, OR you'll have to fit some of the 777s with the OHLE equipment in place of a battery and find funding to wire an isolated island from Bidston to Wrexham.

4.) Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge (and potentially later Preston). Probably a joint scheme between Lancs CC and LCR. 1 new bay needed at Burscough Bridge for this plan, but improves connectivity between a large swathe of Lancs/eastern Liverpool and Southport, plus makes commuting or leisure trips from the growing town of Burscough into Liverpool much easier.

Rebuild both the northern and southern Burscough Curves for this plan - the southern curve is for Merseyrail and ends in the new bay provided on the south side of the station. The northern curve will enable direct Preston to Southport service operated by Northern, stopping at Burscough Bridge as an interchange for Ormskirk and Liverpool, but also restoring the well-used direct link between Preston and Southport on the railway (currently only catered for by the 2/X2 bus service, which is usually very busy, but susceptible to the heavy traffic on the A59/A565).

 

[urban]

Extending the Merseyrail service that currently terminates at Hunt's Cross at least as far as Gateacre (with an intermediate halt) seems a relatively straightforward scheme that is wholly within the Liverpool City Region (so no cross-boundary issues). This re-opening was originally envisaged in the 1970s but somehow was shelved and subsequently overlooked. The line wouldn't need electrification now that battery class 777 emus are available.

Gateacre and the surrounding area is poorly served by buses and they take 50+ minutes to the city centre in peak hours. A reopened station would certainly be well used.

 

[frodshamfella]

It makes a lot of sense, but it does require some more significant rebuilding, so I'd put it down as priority no. 5 on the top ten list of Merseyrail extensions.

My top 4 above that are (in descending order) -
1) Ellesmere Port to Helsby - easy to extend, improves connectivity between Cheshire and the Wirral/Liverpool, and it effectively restores service to Ince and Elton, a station serving several thousand residents already with the potential for a lot more housing and commercial development nearby.

2) Kirkby to Wigan/Skem - reinstates a direct train into Liverpool for a lot of people, after a gap of decades, as well as better and more reliable service from Wigan's suburbs into Wigan, and a potential park and ride upgrade of Upholland could take a lot of traffic off the M58 (congestion is generally not a problem on the road itself currently, but it is at the western terminus, Switch Island, where the M58, M57, A59, A5036 and A5758 intersect - a further rebuild to accommodate even higher traffic levels at Switch Island would be even more expensive but will have to be done at some point without alternative travel options to reduce traffic volumes.)

3) Bidston to Wrexham - a massive opportunity to connect a lot of the towns and villages of west Wirral to the rest of the peninsula and Liverpool, plus much better transport links for the somewhat deprived areas of Wrexham and Flintshire. Lower priority because funding will likely have to be secured from the Welsh government and it's a long extension which will need to be on battery, OR you'll have to fit some of the 777s with the OHLE equipment in place of a battery and find funding to wire an isolated island from Bidston to Wrexham.

4.) Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge (and potentially later Preston). Probably a joint scheme between Lancs CC and LCR. 1 new bay needed at Burscough Bridge for this plan, but improves connectivity between a large swathe of Lancs/eastern Liverpool and Southport, plus makes commuting or leisure trips from the growing town of Burscough into Liverpool much easier.

Rebuild both the northern and southern Burscough Curves for this plan - the southern curve is for Merseyrail and ends in the new bay provided on the south side of the station. The northern curve will enable direct Preston to Southport service operated by Northern, stopping at Burscough Bridge as an interchange for Ormskirk and Liverpool, but also restoring the well-used direct link between Preston and Southport on the railway (currently only catered for by the 2/X2 bus service, which is usually very busy, but susceptible to the heavy traffic on the A59/A565).

Makes a lot of sense for Merseyrail to take over these and offer a regular service, which Northern does not (.Borderlands line being TFW ).. These ideas really just reestablish what was once there in the past.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Makes a lot of sense for Merseyrail to take over these and offer a regular service, which Northern does not (.Borderlands line being TFW ).. These ideas really just reestablish what was once there in the past.

Indeed (excluding some minor changes with Burscough and Skem).

 

[daodao]

@AlastairFraser

All of your suggestions are wholly or in part outwith the Liverpool City Region, and would require the active support (including financial) of one or more external local authorities, who are likely to have other priorities, as @Xenophon PCDGS has repeatedly pointed out. In the case of the Wrexham-Bidston line, the Welsh Government (Llywodraeth Cymru) and Transport for Wales (Trafnidiaeth Cymru) would also need to be involved.

There is a possible case for extending Merseyrail services beyond Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate. Although extending the service into Skelmersdale itself has been considered, in July 2022 the DfT rejected the Strategic Outline Business Case for it and suggested that better bus links with the Kirkby–Wigan rail line would be a cheaper way of improving connectivity for Skelmersdale. The latter has now been done by introducing Stagecoach bus route 319 from Skelmersdale to Kirkby (calling at Headbolt Lane) with a half-hourly service Mon-Sat daytime (hourly evenings and Sundays/bank holidays).

It is better for Merseyrail to focus on projects within Merseyside, such as the Baltic station and re-extending the service currently terminating at Hunt's Cross to Gateacre. Increasing the service to Hunt's Cross and extending it to Speke Airport might become worthwhile if passenger numbers there increase significantly, but they were only 4,193,623 in 2023. More battery emus will be essential for further extensions due to the de facto prohibition on additional surface 3rd rail electrification.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Gateacre was where it was meant to go to as per the original plan of Merseyrail. It's densely populated , would be very useful.

For those not well versed as others, what were the reasons that affected the original plan of Merseyrail that you state above.

Although extending the service into Skelmersdale itself has been considered, in July 2022 the DfT rejected the Strategic Outline Business Case for it and suggested that better bus links with the Kirkby–Wigan rail line would be a cheaper way of improving connectivity for Skelmersdale. The latter has now been done by introducing Stagecoach bus route 319 from Skelmersdale to Kirkby (calling at Headbolt Lane) with a half-hourly service Mon-Sat daytime (hourly evenings and Sundays/bank holidays).

Thank you for pointing out the past and present history that relates to an aspirational Skelmersdale project. A reading of some of the postings about that matter would suggest to me that some of those thread contributors who have made postings on this particular thread were unaware of any of those points you make so clearly above.

 

[mr_jrt]

Random question for someone with essentially zero knowledge of the area...

This talk of (re)extending from Hunts Cross to Gateacre...Gateacre doesn't look to be that far from Broad Green on a map. Wouldn't extending a bit further north to terminate there be better? Or honestly, just running buses from Gateacre to Broad Green. Sending passengers south via Hunts Cross on a stopping service feels very much like taking the long way round to get to the city centre? Unless it's part of something more strategic, what's the point of such a short extension?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Random question for someone with essentially zero knowledge of the area...

This talk of (re)extending from Hunts Cross to Gateacre...Gateacre doesn't look to be that far from Broad Green on a map.

It's miles away. Most Merseyrail stations (like Tube stations) are reached on foot, so you have a catchment of no more than about a kilometre radius. Plus the "City Lines" have a massively inferior service to Merseyrail proper.

Broad Green is basically irrelevant - direct buses are what presently takes the non-car traffic.

Wouldn't extending a bit further north to terminate there be better? Or honestly, just running buses from Gateacre to Broad Green. Sending passengers south via Hunts Cross on a stopping service feels very much like taking the long way round to get to the city centre? Unless it's part of something more strategic, what's the point of such a short extension?

Are you confusing Childwall for Gateacre? Gateacre is nearer Hunts Cross than Broad Green (fractionally).

 

[mr_jrt]

I don't think I'm confused? Gateacre appears to be in the middle of Broad Green and Hunts Cross:


If frequency on the City lines is an issue, then presumably addressing that in addition to extending north would make sense?

In veeery loose measurements, I make it about 14km from Gateacre to the city centre via Hunt's Cross and Central, and 8.6km to Lime St. via Broad Green...which to be fair, is less of the difference than I thought it would be...but still notable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think I'm confused? Gateacre appears to be in the middle of Broad Green and Hunts Cross:
View attachment 168318

Yes, that's correct.

If frequency on the City lines is an issue, then presumably addressing that in addition to extending north would make sense?

It isn't possible to address it significantly without building Northern Powerhouse Rail to remove the fast trains from the route. It has the same problems as the line south of Birmingham.

In veeery loose measurements, I make it about 14km from Gateacre to the city centre via Hunt's Cross and Central, and 8.6km to Lime St. via Broad Green...which to be fair, is less of the difference than I thought it would be...but still notable.

Though this is likely to be offset by (a) the frequency and simplicity of Merseyrail, and (b) the fact that the Northern Line offers you a choice of two stations in the city centre rather than one. See also London - people will choose the Tube over Thameslink or other local rail because Thameslink etc confuses them.

It might not be super-time-efficient, but then neither is 35 minutes for a 10 mile journey from Ormskirk to Liverpool. But if you did open to Gateacre, you can be sure it would be VERY well used.

 

[Tremzinho]

@AlastairFraser

Increasing the service to Hunt's Cross and extending it to Speke Airport might become worthwhile if passenger numbers there increase significantly, but they were only 4,193,623 in 2023. More battery emus will be essential for further extensions due to the de facto prohibition on additional surface 3rd rail electrification.

An extension to Speke wouldn't just be about the airport though. 15,000 people live in the Speke estate, which is very isolated from the rest of the city, and takes almost an hour to reach the city centre by bus.

Most of Speke is a former council estate, with some of the lowest car ownership levels in the country, but more recently there has also been a lot of new private sector housing built in the area. A station serving Speke and the airport would quickly become one of the busiest stations on the Merseyrail network.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

An extension to Speke wouldn't just be about the airport though. 15,000 people live in the Speke estate, which is very isolated from the rest of the city, and takes almost an hour to reach the city centre by bus.

Most of Speke is a former council estate, with some of the lowest car ownership levels in the country, but more recently there has also been a lot of new private sector housing built in the area. A station serving Speke and the airport would quickly become one of the busiest stations on the Merseyrail network.

Is Speke well served with bus routes that cater for shorter local journeys that are well used by local residents as well as the longer commute ones? I am told that bus transportation in the Liverpool area is seen as a most essential part of the public transport provision.

It seems to me that Merseyrail afficionados look upon bus travel with a "Melson's blind eye" and not of the actual reality of people using buses for short intermediate local journeys. Rail is all well and good for end to end commuter journeys into the city centre, but bus services serve a totally different wherewithal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems to me that Merseyrail afficionados look upon bus travel with a "Melson's blind eye" and not of the actual reality of people using buses for short intermediate local journeys. Rail is all well and good for end to end commuter journeys into the city centre, but bus services serve a totally different wherewithal.

Thus spake someone who has never used Merseyrail. It's very well used for intermediate journeys as well as to/from the city centre, just like Metrolink is (the two systems just being two ways of achieving the same end).

 

[mr_jrt]

It isn't possible to address it significantly without building Northern Powerhouse Rail to remove the fast trains from the route. It has the same problems as the line south of Birmingham.

I've just remembered this is the crazy bottleneck where the M62 slip road impinges on the former 4-track formation. Would removing that slip road (who needs to come off that close to the start of the motorway anyway?), or relocating it slightly east and restoring the four-track section between Roby and Edge Hill help?

 

[frodshamfella]

For those not well versed as others, what were the reasons that affected the original plan of Merseyrail that you state above.


Thank you for pointing out the past and present history that relates to an aspirational Skelmersdale project. A reading of some of the postings about that matter would suggest to me that some of those thread contributors who have made postings on this particular thread were unaware of any of those points you make so clearly above.

Someone else may well be able to answer your Gateacre question better than me, I didn't live in the NW back then. What I understand was there was a delay getting the 3rd rail Merseyrail service to Hunts Cross, and then Gateacre just sadly didn't happen. Probably all down to money I imagine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've just remembered this is the crazy bottleneck where the M62 slip road impinges on the former 4-track formation. Would removing that slip road (who needs to come off that close to the start of the motorway anyway?), or relocating it slightly east and restoring the four-track section between Roby and Edge Hill help?

Where are you proposing the extra two trains per hour go? Huyton turnbacks?

Merseyrail has the capacity (the Hunts X line is quite quiet but has Southport frequencies and train lengths, or will have once it switches back) - why not use it?

Someone else may well be able to answer your Gateacre question better than me, I didn't live in the NW back then. What I understand was there was a delay getting the 3rd rail Merseyrail service to Hunts Cross, and then Gateacre just sadly didn't happen. Probably all down to money I imagine.

I suspect it indeed was just money, though plonking a signalling equipment building over the end of the bay was just stupidity to be honest, made it a whole lot harder to reinstate it later.

 

[frodshamfella]

@AlastairFraser

All of your suggestions are wholly or in part outwith the Liverpool City Region, and would require the active support (including financial) of one or more external local authorities, who are likely to have other priorities, as @Xenophon PCDGS has repeatedly pointed out. In the case of the Wrexham-Bidston line, the Welsh Government (Llywodraeth Cymru) and Transport for Wales (Trafnidiaeth Cymru) would also need to be involved.

There is a possible case for extending Merseyrail services beyond Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate. Although extending the service into Skelmersdale itself has been considered, in July 2022 the DfT rejected the Strategic Outline Business Case for it and suggested that better bus links with the Kirkby–Wigan rail line would be a cheaper way of improving connectivity for Skelmersdale. The latter has now been done by introducing Stagecoach bus route 319 from Skelmersdale to Kirkby (calling at Headbolt Lane) with a half-hourly service Mon-Sat daytime (hourly evenings and Sundays/bank holidays).

It is better for Merseyrail to focus on projects within Merseyside, such as the Baltic station and re-extending the service currently terminating at Hunt's Cross to Gateacre. Increasing the service to Hunt's Cross and extending it to Speke Airport might become worthwhile if passenger numbers there increase significantly, but they were only 4,193,623 in 2023. More battery emus will be essential for further extensions due to the de facto prohibition on additional surface 3rd rail electrification.

Liverpool John Lennon is growing fast and Likely to be 5M or more this year.A rail link is very sensible , not least to give Speke township a station of its own.

Is Speke well served with bus routes that cater for shorter local journeys that are well used by local residents as well as the longer commute ones? I am told that bus transportation in the Liverpool area is seen as a most essential part of the public transport provision.

It seems to me that Merseyrail afficionados look upon bus travel with a "Melson's blind eye" and not of the actual reality of people using buses for short intermediate local journeys. Rail is all well and good for end to end commuter journeys into the city centre, but bus services serve a totally different wherewithal.

But as stated already, Speke to the city by bus is extremely slow due to traffic.

I've just attached the plans looked at by the city region



Talking about the Hunts Cross line, I can see it making sense operating to Halewood, Hough Green and Widnes ( all in LCR ) and if you are at Widnes you may as well terminate at Warrington Central, it would be more useful for passengers. I don't think going to Manchester is a good idea at all with all the issues there of hold ups.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Talking about the Hunts Cross line, I can see it making sense operating to Halewood, Hough Green and Widnes ( all in LCR ) and if you are at Widnes you may as well terminate at Warrington Central, it would be more useful for passengers. I don't think going to Manchester is a good idea at all with all the issues there of hold ups.

When did Widnes become part of the LCR? I thought it was in the administered area of Halton Borough Council, with all county level services supplied by Cheshire West and Chester County Council.

 

[Djgr]

For those not well versed as others, what were the reasons that affected the original plan of Merseyrail that you state above.

My memory is as follows.

The Liverpool Central (High Level) to Gateacre line closed during the construction of the Liverpool Link/Loop, in part to facilitate its construction. It was always intended that this would reopen-and it did-first to Garston and then to Hunts Cross.

However, by then, the political climate had changed and Maggie was imposing her managed decline on the city. This led to a collapse in infrastructure investment and the Hunts Cross to Gateacre reopening was lost in the process.

When did Widnes become part of the LCR? I thought it was in the administered area of Halton Borough Council, with all county level services supplied by Cheshire West and Chester County Council.

Halton joined 2014. It is also a unitary authority and so won't get much from anything Cheshire-esque.

As a slightly different point, I think all "Cheshire" areas north of the river have proved problematic in being meaningfully part of that county. For example, Warrington is also unitary.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway built the North Mersey Branch Line that connected Seaforth and Litherland to the Aintree area, wth two stations built at Ford and at Linacre Road. After passenger services were withdrawn it served freight services. What is the current condition of the trackbed there and could it be used as a useful part of any Merseyrail expansion?

Thus spake someone who has never used Merseyrail.

Next Friday will be the third death anniversary of my wife, who was always keen on visiting the Lady Lever Gallery at Port Sunlight. Quite a number of visits were made to it by us in my post-retirement period by taking the train from our local area to Liverpool Lime Street railway station, then making our way to the low-level part of that station on a train to Port Sunlight railway station, which is well placed for the visits to that area. Do those journeys count as being on Merseyrail?

 

[mr_jrt]

Where are you proposing the extra two trains per hour go? Huyton turnbacks?

I don't know the area well enough to comment beyond a cursory glance at the obvious and what I've stumbled across over the years.

I'd be inclined to suggest something like the proposal to branch off from Central to Edge Hill via University, popping up on the northern side of the formation at Edge Hill, then running over the northernmost two lines and taking over the local service on the route to Wigan via St Helens Central, freeing up capacity at Lime St.

Almost certainly over-simplistic, but something to start with, I guess.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite a number of visits were made to it by us in my post-retirement period by taking the train from our local area to Liverpool Lime Street railway station, then making our way to the low-level part of that station on a train to Port Sunlight railway station, which is well placed for the visits to that area. Do those journeys count as being on Merseyrail?

Then you'll have observed that Merseyrail is like a bus service - people use it for all sorts of journeys, not just to/from Liverpool, and generally rail is favoured where it provides for a given journey, demonstrated by the relatively weak bus services that parallel it.

 

[frodshamfella]

When did Widnes become part of the LCR? I thought it was in the administered area of Halton Borough Council, with all county level services supplied by Cheshire West and Chester County Council.

Widnes is in Halton. Halton is within LCR.

 

[Tremzinho]

Is Speke well served with bus routes that cater for shorter local journeys that are well used by local residents as well as the longer commute ones? I am told that bus transportation in the Liverpool area is seen as a most essential part of the public transport provision.

It seems to me that Merseyrail afficionados look upon bus travel with a "Melson's blind eye" and not of the actual reality of people using buses for short intermediate local journeys. Rail is all well and good for end to end commuter journeys into the city centre, but bus services serve a totally different wherewithal.

Most of Liverpool is either not served by rail or poorly served by Northern, so bus certainly makes up the main public transport provision in the city. On the parts of the city served by Merseyrail, it is well used, even by people taking short journeys and children travelling to and from school.

Speke is reasonably well served by bus routes, but it's almost an hour's journey to cover 9 miles. Quite a lot of people do catch the bus to Liverpool South Parkway and switch to Merseyrail, but this means paying two fares unless you have a concessionary travel card. A Trio season ticket is also more expensive than buying a rail only or a bus only season ticket. This discourages multimodal travel at the moment.

It would be interesting to see figures on how passengers have switched between Merseyrail and bus since the £2 fare cap. Before the cap, a return ticket on many short routes within Liverpool were cheaper by train than by bus. I suspect the new £3 cap will switch some people back, unless Mayor Steve Rotheram decides to follow Andy Burnham and keeps it at £2.