Merseyrail: funding for Headbolt Lane and St James stations

[Bletchleyite]

Really? I thought the whole point of this project is connect 2 lines so there are direct run between Liverpool and Wigan once the line is fully electrified

No, the point of the project is to provide a second Kirkby station to serve more of the housing and provide for new housing developments. It's basically exactly the same idea as Maghull North, give or take a bit of extra juice rail.

Extending to Skem and/or Wigan are separate projects.

 

[domcoop7]

Really? I thought the whole point of this project is connect 2 lines so there are direct run between Liverpool and Wigan once the line is fully electrified

No!! Nice as it would be.
I remember reading in the past (like 20 years ago) a proposal to extend Merseyrail all the way to Wigan and electrify it, but I've never heard it mentioned since, and even if it were a good idea, Skelmersdale puts a kaibosh on that, because the lines from Wigan and Kirkby will run into Skem along side each other (or on the same tracks in the same direction) so there'd be a need for changing ends and reversal at Skem. This would add extra delay and add to the need for more units (which aren't forthcoming).

 

[Uk125]

Thanks guys for the replies..

 

[PR1Berske]

Really? I thought the whole point of this project is connect 2 lines so there are direct run between Liverpool and Wigan once the line is fully electrified

In the grand tradition of British railways (deliberate capitalisation) direct services between A and B are not necessarily the result of spending money on improving connectivity at C.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the grand tradition of British railways (deliberate capitalisation) direct services between A and B are not necessarily the result of spending money on improving connectivity at C.

And in any case there is already a direct Liverpool-Wigan service from Lime St.

 

[Llandudno]

Thanks guys for the replies..

There are plenty of decent places in Liverpool City Centre to pop in for a sneaky pint whilst waiting for your train though, but be careful the biggest negative about the Kirkby - Wigan line is that there are no trains after around 6pm and none at all on Sundays.

Pathetic now so many people work shifts.

 

[Uk125]

Indeed! I could always drive and park at Kirkby station car park if needed to

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are plenty of decent places in Liverpool City Centre to pop in for a sneaky pint whilst waiting for your train though, but be careful the biggest negative about the Kirkby - Wigan line is that there are no trains after around 6pm and none at all on Sundays.

Pathetic now so many people work shifts.

I think there's now a slightly later train but it is still pretty rubbish, given that the similar nearby "one man, dog and bicycle" line, Ormskirk-Preston, has a pretty decent evening service for that kind of line.

I understand the reason for it was that in the evenings there was too much "bricking" and general vandalism around Kirkby (no great surprise there), so like bus companies sometimes do BR pulled the evening service, and even 30 years later it has never come back.

 

[Llandudno]

I think there's now a slightly later train but it is still pretty rubbish, given that the similar nearby "one man, dog and bicycle" line, Ormskirk-Preston, has a pretty decent evening service for that kind of line.

I understand the reason for it was that in the evenings there was too much "bricking" and general vandalism around Kirkby (no great surprise there), so like bus companies sometimes do BR pulled the evening service, and even 30 years later it has never come back.

It’s ridiculous though in 2021 with so many people working shifts, seven day shop opening and a booming leisure industry in Liverpool (covid excepted) that there are no trains after the 1910 departure from Liverpool towards Rainford and Wigan.

Equally crazy for the same reasons that there are no Sunday trains on the Rainford route and on the Ormskirk-Preston route.

Even Blaenau Ffestiniog has an all year round Sunday service now - when it doesn’t rain!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern were working towards the idea of a Sunday service on Ormskirk-Preston, then the service collapsed for various reasons, then COVID iced the cake and put the cherry on top. Hopefully the idea will be revived at some point, as I agree that with Sundays no longer being a day for religion and staying at home, there isn't really any excuse for "no Sunday service" anywhere on the network.

 

[PR1Berske]

And in any case there is already a direct Liverpool-Wigan service from Lime St.

A fair point.

And as for Sunday services, a topic for another thread of course, though I would hope that Headbolt Lane and related works would eventually feed into the relevant bodies re-examining service levels in a post-Covid world and introducing later/Sunday services where possible. Britain grinding to a halt on a Sunday is one of those 'old ways' which might be coming to a new normal close.

 

[notlob.divad]

It’s ridiculous though in 2021 with so many people working shifts, seven day shop opening and a booming leisure industry in Liverpool (covid excepted) that there are no trains after the 1910 departure from Liverpool towards Rainford and Wigan.

What makes it even worse is (from memory) the last bus to Rainford (and Rainford Junction) from St. Helens Bus Station (23:38) is just a little too tight to be reliable from the arrival of the last train (23:32). There is about a 4 minute walk from platform to bus stop if you know exactly which stop you are heading for. Which basically means you need to be stood at the train doors and be first through the ticket barrier to ensure you get it. Despite both nominally being run under Merseytravel PTE, the bus is not held if the train is late.

Through running from Liverpool to Rainford and on to Skelmersdale, must be one of the biggest 'wins' available on the network.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Britain grinding to a halt on a Sunday is one of those 'old ways' which might be coming to a new normal close.

Depends which way you look at it. Some people welcome a day to spend with their families, doing whatever they choose. Expecting a load of people to give up their leisure time to serve you on your leisure time could be seen as hypocritical. I have spent 42 years of shift and weekend work for the industry, and have learnt to value my time off sometimes midweek, but that doesn't necessarily apply in all households.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What makes it even worse is (from memory) the last bus to Rainford (and Rainford Junction) from St. Helens Bus Station (23:38) is just a little too tight to be reliable from the arrival of the last train (23:32). There is about a 4 minute walk from platform to bus stop if you know exactly which stop you are heading for. Which basically means you need to be stood at the train doors and be first through the ticket barrier to ensure you get it. Despite both nominally being run under Merseytravel PTE, the bus is not held if the train is late.

I'm actually slightly surprised it's that late given how small Rainford/Rainford Jn are, but not planning the bus to meet the train when it is likely to be used in that way is nuts. If it's a tendered route it would be entirely within the PTE's power to do that.

 

[notlob.divad]

Some people welcome a day to spend with their families, doing whatever they choose.

But in Modern Britain, not everyone wants that to be a Sunday. A significant proportion would prefer Friday or Saturday to be their 'day of rest' whilst a majority would probably want a day, but probably are not that fussed if it was Monday or even a Wednesday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But in Modern Britain, not everyone wants that to be a Sunday. A significant proportion would prefer Friday or Saturday to be their 'day of rest' whilst a majority would probably want a day, but probably are not that fussed if it was Monday or even a Wednesday.

Exactly. Sunday is arbitrary, coming from a religion that isn't even anywhere near observed by the majority any more. So far as I'm concerned, there are just two weekend days and they aren't really to me any different from each other in practice apart from some bizarre, archaic rules on public transport operation and shops (and not even shops in Scotland, despite that being more religious than England - in Scotland 24 hour supermarkets close only for Christmas (and Easter Sunday?), otherwise they'd not need door locks). For those who prefer fixed days off, there are plenty of jobs that are still done Monday-Friday, 9am-5:30pm, including on the railway.

 

[PR1Berske]

Depends which way you look at it. Some people welcome a day to spend with their families, doing whatever they choose. Expecting a load of people to give up their leisure time to serve you on your leisure time could be seen as hypocritical. I have spent 42 years of shift and weekend work for the industry, and have learnt to value my time off sometimes midweek, but that doesn't necessarily apply in all households.

I get that argument, I really do. Until we have fully automated driver-less trains (and hint, we never will) then expecting people to come into work to allow the rest of us not to have a day at work is a challenge to be tackled. BUT, we do have to explore Sunday as the widely accepted 'day of rest' and wonder if this can be sustained.

 

[Phillipimo]

Plans for Headbolt Lane station are out. 2 platforms for Meryseyrail, 1 platform for Northern.

Headbolt Lane Station Proposals

Learn more about how the new station will look.

headboltlane.commonplace.is

 

[bramling]

Exactly. Sunday is arbitrary, coming from a religion that isn't even anywhere near observed by the majority any more. So far as I'm concerned, there are just two weekend days and they aren't really to me any different from each other in practice apart from some bizarre, archaic rules on public transport operation and shops (and not even shops in Scotland, despite that being more religious than England - in Scotland 24 hour supermarkets close only for Christmas (and Easter Sunday?), otherwise they'd not need door locks). For those who prefer fixed days off, there are plenty of jobs that are still done Monday-Friday, 9am-5:30pm, including on the railway.

Reality is a majority of people want weekends off, no doubt to spend time with their children. It’s all very well talking about how Sunday is no longer the day of rest and all that, but whichever way one looks at it a lot of people have children, and therefore are going to want weekends off.

One can argue about the rights or wrongs of this until blue in the face, but it’s not going to change the fact that people take on jobs, including ones clearly advertised as requiring to work weekends, and then want to minimise working them.

 

[adrock1976]

Is this a first phase of a project for Merseyrail/Merseyside PTE to eventually take over the line to Wigan Wallgate/Skelmersdale New Town extension?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Is this a first phase of a project for Merseyrail/Merseyside PTE to eventually take over the line to Wigan Wallgate/Skelmersdale New Town extension?

I can't give chapter and verse, but from what I understand from this thread (and other similar ones on this forum) the aim is to extend Merseyrail to Skem, with a junction from the current formation somewhere in the Rainford area: it follows that the Wigan service would be cut back to Rainford, but my understanding is that the Wigan service would also be extended to Skem. I don't think that any formal plans have been made, but our consensus seems to be that essentially there would be 2 adjacent single-track lines from Rainford to Skem, one of which would head west at Rainford to Kirkby and Liverpool (and so be operated by Merseyrail), and the other would head east towards Wigan and Manchester (and so be operated by Northern). I'm not quite sure what would happen to a passenger wanting to travel from (say) Kirkby to Wigan - would they have to go up to Skem, change and come back again down the branch, or would they be able to change at Rainford?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't give chapter and verse, but from what I understand from this thread (and other similar ones on this forum) the aim is to extend Merseyrail to Skem, with a junction from the current formation somewhere in the Rainford area: it follows that the Wigan service would be cut back to Rainford, but my understanding is that the Wigan service would also be extended to Skem. I don't think that any formal plans have been made, but our consensus seems to be that essentially there would be 2 adjacent single-track lines from Rainford to Skem, one of which would head west at Rainford to Kirkby and Liverpool (and so be operated by Merseyrail), and the other would head east towards Wigan and Manchester (and so be operated by Northern). I'm not quite sure what would happen to a passenger wanting to travel from (say) Kirkby to Wigan - would they have to go up to Skem, change and come back again down the branch, or would they be able to change at Rainford?

The line isn't planned to leave the formation at Rainford itself, but a bit further along to account for the fact that the centre of today's Skem is a couple of miles further east than the original Blaguegate station. This being the case, yes, they'd have to go into Skem and change as there would be no station at the junction. The only other possibility is that Merseyrail runs to Wigan alternating with Skem, I suppose, but that would have the downside of not offering a Skem-Wigan service, which is a considerable demand.

 

[snowball]

I think the plan is for the Skem branch, if and when authorised and funded, to run due north from a new triangular junction east of Rainford and go under the M58 by the same bridge where Whiteledge Road now goes. I see no reason why the road should not remain, as the bridge looks to have been designed to allow it to be dualled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the plan is for the Skem branch, if and when authorised and funded, to run due north from a new triangular junction east of Rainford and go under the M58 by the same bridge where Whiteledge Road now goes. I see no reason why the road should not remain, as the bridge looks to have been designed to allow it to be dualled.

Yes, that is my understanding. Skem will hopefully be an island platform interchange, making this even smoother than it is now, if a few minutes slower to head into Skem and back out.

 

[Trainer2]

From speaking to the DBS shunter who works the Kirkby freight depot train -

the Skem extension (if it ever happens, he gives it 10% likelihood) will not be a Merseyrail extension and was told NR consultants had considered coming into Skem from the Wigan to Southport line as the area between was predominantly good terrain farm land.
He also mentioned NR are doing some freight improvement safety works around the points leading to the rail freight waste sidings which explains why all the trees have gone from the fence line around the siding gates.

 

[snowball]

From speaking to the DBS shunter who works the Kirkby freight depot train -

the Skem extension (if it ever happens, he gives it 10% likelihood) will not be a Merseyrail extension and was told NR consultants had considered coming into Skem from the Wigan to Southport line as the area between was predominantly good terrain farm land.

That's contrary to everything we've heard before. I wouldn't attach too much weight to his information.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's contrary to everything we've heard before. I wouldn't attach too much weight to his information.

Indeed not. 90% of the point is providing a service to Liverpool, which connecting it to that route would not achieve.

There's a clear run in from east of Rainford and a bridge for it to go under at the west edge of Pimbo, possibly replacing the road. From the north there is no obvious route that wouldn't take out a chunk of housing or Tawd Vale Scout Camp.

 

[Trainer2]

Hi,
I can only relay what he told me.
One item to consider, Mersey region authority geographically does not cover Skelmersdale, I’m not sure a Liverpool link to Skem is a priority for the Mersey region.
From Skelmersale perspective, a link to Wigan is more beneficial as it put you on the WCML (Walgate is close enough!).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

From Skelmersale perspective, a link to Wigan is more beneficial as it put you on the WCML (Walgate is close enough!).

That rather depends on whether the traveller from Skem is looking to go for an intercity journey or is commuting to work. If they work in Liverpool (and I have no idea how many people from Skelmersdale do) then a link to Liverpool will be better than one to Wigan.

And anyway, as I understand it (see my post #291 above) the aim is for trains to run to both Liverpool and Wigan.

 

[frodshamfella]

That rather depends on whether the traveller from Skem is looking to go for an intercity journey or is commuting to work. If they work in Liverpool (and I have no idea how many people from Skelmersdale do) then a link to Liverpool will be better than one to Wigan.

And anyway, as I understand it (see my post #291 above) the aim is for trains to run to both Liverpool and Wigan.

I believe the bus service from Skelmersdale to Liverpool is painfully slow as well. A train would really make a difference for commuters.