Merseyrail Guard on Trial

[bailey65]

This was a tragic accident and not really anybodys fault it is just terrible a young girl died.

 

[HH]

Wouldn't he? I wish I could be so certain of that. Remember, Guards are instructed not to put people off trains at unstaffed stations if there could be a risk to their safety, especially young females. It's those words 'duty of care' again.

As you observe, that offence is a railway byelaw that is broken many times, probably as we type - is that acceptable and right?! Do you not think that byelaw exists in part for the safety of the people concerned?

He didn't put her off the train. Does he have to let her on? It probably would have been sensible though.

If the railways don't enforce the bye-laws then the bye-laws might as well not exist. There doesn't seem to be a lot of appetite to enforce them. I've seen BTP ignoring obvious drunks at mainline stations in London.

 

[Clip]

Can you explain yourself here? You aren't making a lot of sense with this.

I am.

Yes she was drunk. But sober people lean on trains all the time and you wouldn't be blaming them if the same happened to them would you?

In fairness her being ****ed was probably what made her get off the train. But I've witnessed many people over the years doing what she done both drunk and sober.

Making the train move was only down to one person and one person only.

 

[Ferret]

He didn't put her off the train. Does he have to let her on? It probably would have been sensible though.

Leaving somebody at an unstaffed station in an inebriated state is no different to putting them off at an unstaffed station in an inebriated state. The effect is the same! Perhaps I should've made that more clear, but that's what I'm getting at - he arguably wouldn't be discharging his duty of care if he just left her behind.

If the railways don't enforce the bye-laws then the bye-laws might as well not exist. There doesn't seem to be a lot of appetite to enforce them. I've seen BTP ignoring obvious drunks at mainline stations in London.

They haven't the resources to effectively enforce it, merely picking and choosing when to enforce this specific byelaw, often as a tool to deal with unruly football fans!
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I am.

Yes she was drunk. But sober people lean on trains all the time and you wouldn't be blaming them if the same happened to them would you?

Hmmmm, are you sure about this?! I don't recall ever seeing a sober person lean on a train when I've been dispatching, and I've been around for quite a few years now!

Making the train move was only down to one person and one person only.

I don't think anyone disputes that fact. That's why McGee is in prison!

I think with all due respect Clip, you're missing a major point - you're not understanding why I'm saying what I'm saying. Look at it like this:

Somebody else somewhere hears about this case, thinks 'that guard went to prison for not doing his job, great - it's fine for me to get smashed and get on the train home cos somebody else is legally responsible for my safety'.

So, he goes out, gets hammered with his mates. He gets on a late train home, and gets off at the wrong stop. He realises his mistake, rushes to get back on and gets his clothing trapped in the closing doors. Alas for him, it's DOO, the driver is unsighted and the train departs, with the inevitable consequences. So, somebody else might get prosecuted and might get 5 years for manslaughter - that doesn't help our poor young man who's no longer with us does it?

What I've been saying is what many other people on many different fora and in the letters pages of newspapers have been saying - and it's said in the hope that people will see beyond the Court case, and understand that it's all well and good correctly prosecuting who negligently fails in his duty, but that doesn't bring the deceased back.

As much as this case has been a wake up call for many train crew of all grades, it should also be a wake up call to *everyone* about what can happen to you when inebriated, albeit as a very extreme example of the absolute worst. Like I say - the only good that can come of it all is that it stops the same horrible fate befalling somebody else. To that end wish, trying to pretend that the guard was solely culpable is not a constructive position to take.

 

[Greenback]

There isn't anything that hasn't already been said, so this thread is going to be locked until the RAIB report comes out.


Update: the report is due out on 27 November