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Merseyrail Guard on Trial

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the sniper

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However another thing to be addressed is if it was train of newer standards we mightn't be in this situation as the guard would have had a window to look out of as all new stock seems to have a window to open at the local door located in the cab, on units like the 507 / 508s (and the mk3 mus with the exception of the 150/1s) once you close the door the view is horrendous 158s being particularly bad. It's the.one plus.point of working a 14x and having large windows throughout. The main reason seemingly is the guards massive balls up and the state of the girl but there's other tiny factors in the picture

I don't sign 507s or 508s, or know them very well at all, but the picture on the articles seems to show that the Guard did have his head out of the cab window.
 
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bb21

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Again. I'm struggling to find the legislation that backs up this assertion, be it consent or supervision. You use the word 'legally'. Could you provide a link to the piece of legislation where this is stated?

http://www.drinkaware.co.uk/children-and-alcohol/parents/the-law

Fair enough. It would appear that it is not illegal with respect to the alcohol part. I seem to have read US legislation rather than UK legislation. Maybe it should be illegal however that is for another day.

This has no impact on the points I was trying to make. My argument still stands since she took illegal substances therefore she still broke the law.
 

hello

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i have not read all of this thread, so what i say may have already been mentioned, but why cannot people these days take responsibility for their own actions, in this case the deceased (it was an accident), and if someone is to blame, should it not be her friends that were with her getting blindingly drunk, that she was in such a state that she had to lean against a train, could her friends not also have stopped her from doing that. this country has got completly ridiculous. IT WAS AN ACCIDENT these things happen
 

michael769

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Was catching up on the thread about the derailment at Inverkeilor. If caught do you think that the culprits would get 5 years?

Nobody died there so doubtful unless they have a record of violent crime.
 

12CSVT

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Should there be a RA code to the driver to pull away slowly and be ready to stop?

Being a dispatcher for many years myself, I agree there should be a means of cancelling a CD (Close Doors) or RA (Right Away) signal in an emergency - and maybe even a means for platform dispatchers to put the signal itself back to danger from the CD / RA control panel (again only in emergencies).

Is there a bye-law dealing with intoxication on railway premises? And how often is it used?

As well as the bye-law there is also the criminal law of being 'drunk and incapable'.
 

Pumbaa

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I don't think it's been mentioned yet but McGee was a Driver/Guard, ie one of Merseyrails mixed grade men. In this instance a guard trained to be a driver on occasion rather than the other way round.

I doubt it has any effect on the judgement but one would think he'd be more aware of the risks of the railway, working at both ends of the train.

There has already been a change since the incident - drivers acting as guards have been dropped (or so I am led to believe). Guards trained as drivers remain.
 

tanglung

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I don't think it's been mentioned yet but McGee was a Driver/Guard, ie one of Merseyrails mixed grade men. In this instance a guard trained to be a driver on occasion rather than the other way round.
Don't know where you got that from but you are wrong.He was a guard and guard only,never been a driver.

I doubt it has any effect on the judgement but one would think he'd be more aware of the risks of the railway, working at both ends of the train.
see above.

There has already been a change since the incident - drivers acting as guards have been dropped
someone is giving you duff information.
 

bnm

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This has no impact on the points I was trying to make. My argument still stands since she took illegal substances therefore she still broke the law.

Interestingly, although somewhat irrelevant, Christopher McGee received a police caution in 2009 for possession of nine cannabis plants. No evidence he is/was a user of course, but even adults with a very safety critical job to do can make what appears to be foolish choices.
 

Clip

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Nice to see the media are omitting some facts from this when reporting...

Real XS (formerly Rock Radio) fail to mention that the girl was 3 times over the drink drive limit and on illegal drugs. Since it's news team is split with Real Radio and Smooth Radio I'd say it's a fair guess that those stations are using the exact same reports.

Phil

And? Along with people stating she was 'Mind bendingly drunk'. you do understand that she was not driving a car dont you? And the drink drive limit is so low to deter people from drinking at all before they get in a car and drive. Its a pint of weak beer for gods sake. I can bet many of you have gone out and drank around 5 maybe 7 pints of a good strength ale or lager which would generally put you up to the same sort of levels as she was and yet you see no harm in yourselves doing this!!

And for those who claim she was 'Mind bendingly drunk' - well she managed to leave the train perfectly well and didnt fall over onto the platform iirc and turned round and walked back to the train doors.

As long as Merseyrail can evidence they have provided the training to the employee, it removes the liability of the company for any trained employee making a error such as this case. My company keeps highly documented evidence of training we have undertaken.

And as the report from the post before has pointed out -
The judge reminded McGee that he had been repeatedly trained and instructed in matters of safety and must have known anyone falling between the platform and train was likely to be killed.

So for all those who wanted to 'hang' Merseyrail management are you now going to retract your crass statements given that they have provided evidence that they do constantly retrain their staff? Or, which I think will be more likely, you wont.


The railway is a dangerous place and it is up to us, the staff, first and foremost to keep passengers safe from the dangers it presents, and when we fall down in our duties things like this can happen. We all know people get drunk and may be under the influence of illegal drugs and it does not matter if they are 16 or 61 under the influence of anything we have a position of responsibility and most of us know that.
Others who dont and seem to want to protect their hobby from any sort of comments or judgements of wrongdoings - even though proven in a court of law - should do well to understand that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Being a dispatcher for many years myself, I agree there should be a means of cancelling a CD (Close Doors) or RA (Right Away) signal in an emergency - and maybe even a means for platform dispatchers to put the signal itself back to danger from the CD / RA control panel (again only in emergencies).
.


do you not make the CD/RA flash then? Sure I remember the WAGN guys doing that at The Cross to stop him from moving off.
 

A-driver

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I don't understand what you are all talking about by telling the driver to pull away slowly? If its not clear then it's not clear. And if you get dragged under a train like that then you are dead-be it a train doing 5mph or 50mph. And with trains like the Mersey fleet and similar trains (313/455) etc with a camshaft you can't start off smoothly-there will be a jolt no matter how slowly you open up.

I'm not going to comment on this specific instance for various reasons (although I am very concerned that the guard was found guilty-infact very upset it ever went to court like this at all) but there is no grey area in dispatch which needs the driver to pull out slowly-if you are not 100% sure it's clear then don't give the RA. No one has ever been sacked or sent to prison for delaying trains. I will sit at stations as long as I need to to be sure it's clear enough to run out a full speed-not creep out as I'm not sure if its clear. If platforms are too crowded then you refuse to give the RA, ring control and get something done about it.
 

snail

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this country has got completly ridiculous. IT WAS AN ACCIDENT these things happen
Yes it was an accident. Everyone agrees that, including the judge. But it was an avoidable accident - read what the judge said when sentencing. I also suggest you read the rest of the thread before jumping in and rubbishing the Legal system.
 

hello

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Yes it was an accident. Everyone agrees that, including the judge. But it was an avoidable accident - read what the judge said when sentencing. I also suggest you read the rest of the thread before jumping in and rubbishing the Legal system.

avoidable by not leaning up against the train
 

185

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I don't think it's been mentioned yet but McGee was a Driver/Guard, ie one of Merseyrails mixed grade men. In this instance a guard trained to be a driver on occasion rather than the other way round.

I doubt it has any effect on the judgement but one would think he'd be more aware of the risks of the railway, working at both ends of the train.

There has already been a change since the incident - drivers acting as guards have been dropped (or so I am led to believe). Guards trained as drivers remain.

That's been doing the rounds for some time now. Guards are guards, drivers are drivers. Chris McGee has never been a driver.

This 'mixed grade' BS has probably come from some berk who has told a spotter that he is 'mostly a guard but drives trains too' which is utterly lies. Even under BR, there were no multi graded traincrew.

snail said:
Yes it was an accident. Everyone agrees that, including the judge. But it was an avoidable accident - read what the judge said when sentencing. I also suggest you read the rest of the thread before jumping in and rubbishing the Legal system.

Judge omitted to mention 1) her friends 2) her holier than thou mother 3) her drug dealer and ultimately 4) her

....could have also prevented the accident.
 

Pumbaa

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Don't know where you got that from but you are wrong.He was a guard and guard only,never been a driver.

see above.

someone is giving you duff information.

My apologies if that is the case - I was led to believe that is so but happy to be proved wrong by those with more knowledge :)
 

Kneedown

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This 'mixed grade' BS has probably come from some berk who has told a spotter that he is 'mostly a guard but drives trains too' which is utterly lies. Even under BR, there were no multi graded traincrew..

Not strictly true.
After 88 us Secondmen became Trainmen D's and were trained to perform Guards duties. Even after becoming a Driver we still had to act as a Guard on occasion at Toton, when no "real" Guards were available. Mostly on weekend ballast jobs, nice and snug in a brake van with a roaring fire going.
 

RichmondCommu

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i have not read all of this thread, so what i say may have already been mentioned, but why cannot people these days take responsibility for their own actions, in this case the deceased (it was an accident), and if someone is to blame, should it not be her friends that were with her getting blindingly drunk, that she was in such a state that she had to lean against a train, could her friends not also have stopped her from doing that. this country has got completly ridiculous. IT WAS AN ACCIDENT these things happen

What you have chosen to post is nothing short of disgraceful. Try telling that to the parents who have lost their daughter. There is only one person to blame for all of this and that is the guard.

Teenagers get drunk, period, end of. All the guard had to do was to not let the train depart. In doing so he caused the death of that poor girl. How dare you blame this on her mates.
 

Clip

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Judge omitted to mention 1) her friends 2) her holier than thou mother 3) her drug dealer and ultimately 4) her

....could have also prevented the accident.

But they were not on trial here.. In case you missed that salient point.
 

bb21

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There is only one person to blame for all of this and that is the guard.

I'm afraid I cannot agree with this statement.

The guard is undoubtedly responsible, however he is not the only person who played a part in this accident. There are others (such as those who supplied the girl with illegal substances, who may well be her friends) whose actions also played a big part in this girl's death.
 

A-driver

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What you have chosen to post is nothing short of disgraceful. Try telling that to the parents who have lost their daughter. There is only one person to blame for all of this and that is the guard.

Teenagers get drunk, period, end of. All the guard had to do was to not let the train depart. In doing so he caused the death of that poor girl. How dare you blame this on her mates.

Not wanting to inflame things but I couldn't disagree with you more. She was certainly part to blame. And the guard certainly was not 100% to blame.

As I said before I am not going to make specific comments on this as I find it in very bad taste that this thread is going the way it is.

A girl has been killed by a train here. A guard has paid a very severe price for his involvement and I hope he will appeal but that's my personal opinion. The court has ruled what it has ruled and I see no reason why people on here feel the need to argue this out so much. We are, after all, talking about real people's lives here.
 

bb21

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I have separated out discussions regarding self-determination and the human rights legislations here. Please try and keep this thread on topic.
 

the sniper

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Teenagers get drunk, period, end of.

I think this is the notion that winds people up. The (false) idea that all teenagers get extremely drunk and high on drugs, so these people obviously shouldn't have to worry about their own well being as that is everybody else's responsibility (excluding their parents, family & friends of course). That is their right.

Is this something that parents of frequently drunk teenagers tell themselves to make themselves feel better, to desolve themselves of any responsibility should anything (god forbid) go wrong? Maybe if parents took a bit more responsibility, Town and City centres on Friday and Saturday nights wouldn't be so awash with drunk kids lying in the streets unconscious, being carted off to packed Hospitals or babysitted by the Police for being D&I.

I fully appreciate that some teenagers can not be controlled, but too many parents don't even seem to try to stop their kids getting like this.
 

RichmondCommu

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This 'mixed grade' BS has probably come from some berk who has told a spotter that he is 'mostly a guard but drives trains too' which is utterly lies. Even under BR, there were no multi graded traincrew.

Judge omitted to mention 1) her friends 2) her holier than thou mother 3) her drug dealer and ultimately 4) her

....could have also prevented the accident.

Talking of berks..... The only person to blame for this tragic incident is the guard. How you could even attempt to pin the blame on a grieving monther is beyond me. I'm sorry, but at some stage you have to stop protecting your 'own'.
 

90019

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Talking of berks..... The only person to blame for this tragic incident is the guard. How you could even attempt to pin the blame on a grieving monther is beyond me. I'm sorry, but at some stage you have to stop protecting your 'own'.

Where the mother involved appears to be of the opinion that a 16 year old going out to get drunk and take class B drugs is normal and acceptable behaviour, I find it pretty easy to lay some of the blame with her.
 

RichmondCommu

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I'm afraid I cannot agree with this statement.

The guard is undoubtedly responsible, however he is not the only person who played a part in this accident. There are others (such as those who supplied the girl with illegal substances, who may well be her friends) whose actions also played a big part in this girl's death.

Absolutely not. If the guard had prevented the train from departing, the fact that this poor young lady was drunk / under the infulence of drugs would have not mattered a jot. You cannot for one moment compare this tragedy to the Leah Betts case, or indeed any others of that nature.
 

bb21

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Absolutely not. If the guard had prevented the train from departing, the fact that this poor young lady was drunk / under the infulence of drugs would have not mattered a jot. You cannot for one moment compare this tragedy to the Leah Betts case, or indeed any others of that nature.

Why not? If she was not drugged up then the outcome could have been very different. In that case if the guard mistakenly gave the all clear, she could very well have moved out of the way in time.
 

RichmondCommu

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A girl has been killed by a train here. A guard has paid a very severe price for his involvement and I hope he will appeal but that's my personal opinion. The court has ruled what it has ruled and I see no reason why people on here feel the need to argue this out so much. We are, after all, talking about real people's lives here.

Exactly, and one life has been lost, before the poor girl even had a proper chance to find out what life was all about. Five years is nothing compared to someone who has gone forever.
 

A-driver

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Don't feed the troll. Rise above it and leave him to it. He is just trying to provoke a reaction.
 

Temple Meads

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Talking of berks..... The only person to blame for this tragic incident is the guard. How you could even attempt to pin the blame on a grieving monther is beyond me. I'm sorry, but at some stage you have to stop protecting your 'own'.

That isn't exactly true, the guard is the primary cause of the actual accident that caused her death, but there are other factors, if she hadn't been seriously inebriated then she probably would have had the sense not to lean on the train, so she is partly (and I stress the word partly) responsible for not knowing when to stop, her parents are partly (again stressing "partly") responsible by allowing her out, and whoever supplied her with drink and drugs is also partly to blame.

Overall this is a horrible incident that has affected a lot of lives, not least that of her mother, who (and certain individuals have forgotten this) has lost her daughter to an avoidable accident.

Lets have some respect for all concerned please.

PS: I'm digressing here but I'm 16 and I've never been told my my mother not to take drugs or get drunk, and strangely I've never got bladdered or taken illegal drugs, and I also know when to stop..
 

RichmondCommu

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Why not? If she was not drugged up then the outcome could have been very different. In that case if the guard mistakenly gave the all clear, she could very well have moved out of the way in time.

Not matter what state the poor girl was in, he shouldn't have given the all clear! The guard had no idea what that girl had been up to that evening. All he cared about was getting the train away. Safety of customers should have been his priority, something which he sadly and regrettably ignored.
 
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