Merseyrail most punctual' rail network in UK for second year running

[Fawkes Cat]

It's not their own statistic. It is not just what they are claiming.

And I didn't intend to suggest otherwise. But I haven't managed to find the source - and I'd hoped to compare the 90% success that one failed journey a week would represent to the norm in that source. I suspect that quite a lot of TOCs fall (on the figures that Merseyrail is using) below 90% - which would mean that at 90% Merseyrail were still pretty good in comparison.

 

[Djgr]

Who is up playing Northern? Nobody I have seen on here.

Try putting out a comment about how Northern were poor at something and there will be three responses saying that it was not Northern's fault, it was Network Rail, it was TPE, the Government's, the weather, the media, Uncle Tom Cobley's

 

[Djgr]

And I didn't intend to suggest otherwise. But I haven't managed to find the source - and I'd hoped to compare the 90% success that one failed journey a week would represent to the norm in that source. I suspect that quite a lot of TOCs fall (on the figures that Merseyrail is using) below 90% - which would mean that at 90% Merseyrail were still pretty good in comparison.

Well the news article says Office of Road and Rail and so I would be surprised if it is not accessible from their website

 

[Meerkat]

Try putting out a comment about how Northern were poor at something and there will be three responses saying that it was not Northern's fault, it was Network Rail, it was TPE, the Government's, the weather, the media, Uncle Tom Cobley's

So people are cynical about excessively negative claims and about possibly excessive positive claims - seems pretty consistent to me

 

[Djgr]

So people are cynical about excessively negative claims and about possibly excessive positive claims - seems pretty consistent to me

Except as far as I can see the negative claims are not excessive but true and fair and the "possible" (with no evidence to back up using this qualifier) positive claims also appear true and fair and not excessive.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Well the news article says Office of Road and Rail and so I would be surprised if it is not accessible from their website

It might well be, but I'm not managing to find it, so I'll have to make do with the figures that I've got.

 

[razor89]

It might well be, but I'm not managing to find it, so I'll have to make do with the figures that I've got.

As far as I can tell, the figures you've got for punctuality/ reliability do not represent actual operational performance, but represent passengers opinions of said performance.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

As far as I can tell, the figures you've got for punctuality/ reliability do not represent actual operational performance, but represent passengers opinions of said performance.

Fair point. But I've explained the comment I wanted to make in post #91 above, so if someone wants to verify Merseyrail's figures, I think it is probably up to them to go and find the evidence.

 

[razor89]

http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/ME/monthly

Here's Merseyrails monthly PPM stats for the last 4 years or so, the last year they've been achieving 97% pretty consistently.

 

[Djgr]

Fair point. But I've explained the comment I wanted to make in post #91 above, so if someone wants to verify Merseyrail's figures, I think it is probably up to them to go and find the evidence.

As I said above these are NOT Merseyrail's figures. They are official centrally produced statistics. Can we just accept this and move on, please.

 

[bramling]

The credit is for being the most punctual operator 2nd year running, which I consider is worthy of praise.

Maybe it's my paranoia but I am starting to think this continual upplaying of Northern and downplaying Merseyrail reflects inbuilt regional prejudices.

I don't think it's fair to compare Northern and Merseyrail, they're two completely separate and different operations.

Merseyrail has the luxury of a largely self-contained network focussed on a small and specific geographical area, running a homogenous fleet of trains, the majority of the network controlled from one modern signalling centre with (AIUI) TOC and electrical control co-located with the signallers. Despite all this, aspects of Merseyrail aren't easy to operate - for example having to reverse 8tph on the through platforms at Liverpool Central, having a loop at one end of Wirral Line trips so no turnround time, or having single-track stubs at several termini. This simply doesn't compare with many others TOCs - the only one which comes close is possibly LTS. In fact Merseyrail shares more in common with London Underground.

 

[Eccles1983]

Merseyrail is just a big tram network.

You cannot compare it to any normal rail company. It doesn't have any conflicts at junctions or anywhere.

 

[frodshamfella]

It doesn’t make sense to switch lines that are run from the other end and both ends are outside Merseyside!
But yes to Skelmersdale, Warrington and Wigan via St Helens, Warrington from Lime St and Central.
But this all needs wiring if the batteries have been canned....

According to last nights press Merseyrail are talking of potential expansion using battery ops.

 

[S&CLER]

I don't think it's fair to compare Northern and Merseyrail, they're two completely separate and different operations.

Merseyrail has the luxury of a largely self-contained network focussed on a small and specific geographical area, running a homogenous fleet of trains, the majority of the network controlled from one modern signalling centre with (AIUI) TOC and electrical control co-located with the signallers. Despite all this, aspects of Merseyrail aren't easy to operate - for example having to reverse 8tph on the through platforms at Liverpool Central, having a loop at one end of Wirral Line trips so no turnround time, or having single-track stubs at several termini. This simply doesn't compare with many others TOCs - the only one which comes close is possibly LTS. In fact Merseyrail shares more in common with London Underground.

I agree with everything you say, and would add the capacity benefits of a uniform stopping pattern, but I'd just point out that in pre-nationalisation days the Mersey Railway ran a 5-minute peak frequency to Rock Ferry, plus through trains to West Kirby and New Brighton, and some Birkenhead Park terminators, so reversing rather more than 8 tph. They all used the reversing siding, as far as I can tell, because the ability to start outbound trains from both platforms didn't come about until 1985 or 1986, a few years after the Loop and Link opened.

One of the advantages of the Loop and Link scheme was that it did away with the differential in frequency between the Ormskirk (20 mins) and Southport (15 mins) lines, which was operationally awkward once the Link opened and used to make connections at Sandhills hit and miss.

Moderator note: to discuss potential ideas for future operations, please use the following thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...e-segregation-and-possible-extensions.199546/

 

[Saperstein]

Merseyrail is just a big tram network.

You cannot compare it to any normal rail company. It doesn't have any conflicts at junctions or anywhere.

Have to disagree there. It’s not a “tram network” it is Heavy Rail. It cannot run out in the open streets like trams can and the units in use are certainly not trams!

Imagine for instance a Class 507/8 pulling up at a tram stop in Nottingham, you’d need a step ladder to board!*

Granted it’s a self contained network, but I think it does pretty well though for the most part though I wish some of their trains were a bit longer at times!

They do share some stations with other operators and even platforms. I have been on a TfW service from North Wales before now and been sat at a red signal just outside Chester waiting for a Merseyrail EMU to depart towards Liverpool so we could be platformed.

So there can be some conflicts.

Saperstein.

*Of course it would be impossible anyway, although both use 750v DC the trams use a pantograph and OHLE as apposed to Third Rail and Pickup shoes for obvious reasons!

I was just making the point about how different the two systems are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is not a tram network - if nothing else it is heavy, not light rail. It's an S-Bahn, or if you prefer a British comparison it's very similar to the "shallow" Tube, particularly the Metropolitan Line.

 

[yorkie]

Merseyrail is just a big tram network.

You cannot compare it to any normal rail company. It doesn't have any conflicts at junctions or anywhere.

Not true. Are you familiar with the track layout at Hunts Cross, for example?

 

[C J Snarzell]

Merseyrail is a TOC just like Northern or TPE, to compare it as a light rail service like the Manchester Metrolink is lunacy.

As I said in a previous post it would be great to expand Merseyrail further out of the Merseyside zone and connect it with towns like Wigan, Warrington and even Preston but it is unlikely to happen in the immediate future.

CJ

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has many similarities to Metrolink, but it isn't the same.

 

[yorkie]

As I said in a previous post it would be great to expand Merseyrail...

If anyone wishes to discuss these suggestions, we have a dedicated thread in the appropriate forum section at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...e-segregation-and-possible-extensions.199546/

 

[London Trains]

Merseyrail is just a big tram network.

You cannot compare it to any normal rail company. It doesn't have any conflicts at junctions or anywhere.

Apart from Hunts Cross, and places it shares platforms with other TOCs such as Chester, Southport and Ellesmere Port.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Apart from Hunts Cross, and places it shares platforms with other TOCs such as Chester, Southport, Ormskirk, Kirkby and Ellesmere Port.

Let's not overstate it either way. There are conflicts with other TOCs at Chester and Hunt's Cross: in terms of rails, nothing meets at Kirkby or Ormskirk, and in practice nothing meets at Southport. Despite living in the Merseyrail area for 23 years, I've never been to Ellesmere Port station so can't comment about that. For the avoidance of doubt, yes, platforms may be shared - but not rails.

So not entirely isolated - but apart from a couple of places, without day to day interaction with other TOCs' trains.

 

[Saperstein]

Let's not overstate it either way. There are conflicts with other TOCs at Chester and Hunt's Cross: in terms of rails, nothing meets at Kirkby or Ormskirk, and in practice nothing meets at Southport. Despite living in the Merseyrail area for 23 years, I've never been to Ellesmere Port station so can't comment about that. For the avoidance of doubt, yes, platforms may be shared - but not rails.

So not entirely isolated - but apart from a couple of places, without day to day interaction with other TOCs' trains.

But it could still spell problems for the rest of the NR network.

Say for instance a 507/8 failed just after departure from Bidston fouling the junction to the Borderlands line. That’s the TfW service to from/Wrexham caped at Upton? Or would they cape it further back?

Similar if they broke down and blocked the Manchester-bound platform at Hunts X.

Having said that even though two out of three platforms are electrified, I’ve only seen one in use (bay platform).

And then there’s Chester and of course as you said Ellesmere Port.

I’ve only been once and they used the one platform 1?

Not sure how it works there, are both electrified? do Northern use both?

Can’t remember TBH.

But plenty of places Merseyrail interacts with other TOC’s and either could cause problems for the other.

Not just breakdowns of course but even pax activating Passcoms etc.

Saperstein.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Say for instance a 507/8 failed just after departure from Bidston fouling the junction to the Borderlands line.

Forgot about Bidston. Thanks.

 

[Djgr]

In today's Liverpool Echo there is an article that makes the points that I have been making. It asserts that the reason Liverpudlians are so fed up with Northern is that they can compare and contrast it with Merseyrail.

The article also highlights the benefits that arise from services being managed locally, rather than from the other side of the country.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/northern-rails-demise-shows-scousers-17671877

 

[TheSel]

Just a few observations about the points (no pun intended!) made above:

Likelihood of blocking Manchester bound (platform 2) at Hunts Cross is negligible, as Merseyrail only use platform 2 there in their own emergency situation, e.g. if a Merseyrail unit fails in [their own] platform 3. This is why enthusiasts' trips, such as the one run a couple of weeks ago to raise funds for Alder Hey hospital invariably try to schedule a platform 2 turnback to appeal to 'micro-track spotters'.

Yes, it's possible that a unit could fail just west of Bidston, and thus affect TfW. Equally, a TfW DMU could fail at, or just either side of Bidston (a few run to the headshunt on the Birkenhead side, to avoid occupying a platform) and thus affect Merseyrail.

Another track conflict which has not been mentioned (that I can see) is the complex layout just north of Sandhills, seen in the background of the shot below. The southbound Southport line (right) crosses the northbound Ormskirk and Kirkby line (on which the unit is travelling) at a diamond. With four trains an hour on each line in each direction (plus some ECS), careful pathing is required.



No - Platform 2 at Ellesmere Port is not electrified. See pic below.



Electrified Platform 3 at Southport does, (BUT ONLY VERY RARELY) get used to accommodate Northern DMUs. See below.


This, however, was an extremely unusual circumstance. 6 October 2018. A 'Northern Strike' day led to platforms 4, 5 and 6 being occupied with empty stock. The (from memory) two-hourly skeleton service provided between Wigan and Southport was thus scheduled into platform 3. The day coincided with the 'Liverpool Giants' festival in Liverpool, hence the additional crowd-control measures on the Platform 1 / 2 island. (With grateful thanks to the guys who let me past to get this rare shot!)

 

[S&CLER]

Just a few observations about the points (no pun intended!) made above:

Likelihood of blocking Manchester bound (platform 2) at Hunts Cross is negligible, as Merseyrail only use platform 2 there in their own emergency situation, e.g. if a Merseyrail unit fails in [their own] platform 3. This is why enthusiasts' trips, such as the one run a couple of weeks ago to raise funds for Alder Hey hospital invariably try to schedule a platform 2 turnback to appeal to 'micro-track spotters'.

Yes, it's possible that a unit could fail just west of Bidston, and thus affect TfW. Equally, a TfW DMU could fail at, or just either side of Bidston (a few run to the headshunt on the Birkenhead side, to avoid occupying a platform) and thus affect Merseyrail.

Another track conflict which has not been mentioned (that I can see) is the complex layout just north of Sandhills, seen in the background of the shot below. The southbound Southport line (right) crosses the northbound Ormskirk and Kirkby line (on which the unit is travelling) at a diamond. With four trains an hour on each line in each direction (plus some ECS), careful pathing is required.

View attachment 73411

No - Platform 2 at Ellesmere Port is not electrified. See pic below.

View attachment 73409

Electrified Platform 3 at Southport does, (BUT ONLY VERY RARELY) get used to accommodate Northern DMUs. See below.

View attachment 73410
This, however, was an extremely unusual circumstance. 6 October 2018. A 'Northern Strike' day led to platforms 4, 5 and 6 being occupied with empty stock. The (from memory) two-hourly skeleton service provided between Wigan and Southport was thus scheduled into platform 3. The day coincided with the 'Liverpool Giants' festival in Liverpool, hence the additional crowd-control measures on the Platform 1 / 2 island. (With grateful thanks to the guys who let me past to get this rare shot!)

Many thanks for the picture of Ellesmere Port. It illustrates the point I just made on the parallel thread about Merseyrail expansion, concerning the bay that was built for interchange but never used, because there were no funds for the necessary track alterations.

 

[Djgr]

Many thanks for the picture of Ellesmere Port. It illustrates the point I just made on the parallel thread about Merseyrail expansion, concerning the bay that was built for interchange but never used, because there were no funds for the necessary track alterations.

I certainly believe an Ellesmere Port to Manchester commuter service would be a hit, particularly if it didn't run as a stopper. There would be quite a demand from Wirral commuters wishing to avoid the M56/Princess Parkway but park up at Ellesmere Port instead.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If we cast our minds back a decade or so, remember when the joint venture of Serco and Nederlandse Spoorwegen (this was before they spun their overseas arm off as Abellio) won both the Merseyrail and Northern franchises? On Merseyrail the "M-to-go" concept was launched at a number of stations, a scheme adapted from practice in the Netherlands. On Northern, the only Dutch concept that was tried out was the cycle hub at Leeds, which was a dismal failure leading to a white elephant that has only recently returned to use.

Much is made of the "zero growth" aspect of that Northern franchise, but clearly once NS separated their UK operations into Abellio the impetus for innovation was lost. History will judge that period as one of missed opportunities, IMO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we cast our minds back a decade or so, remember when the joint venture of Serco and Nederlandse Spoorwegen (this was before they spun their overseas arm off as Abellio) won both the Merseyrail and Northern franchises? On Merseyrail the "M-to-go" concept was launched at a number of stations, a scheme adapted from practice in the Netherlands. On Northern, the only Dutch concept that was tried out was the cycle hub at Leeds, which was a dismal failure leading to a white elephant that has only recently returned to use.

M-to-go is interesting but I'm not really convinced by it - it seems to do the jobs of being a ticket office and a convenience store both not exceptionally well. I think somewhere like Liverpool Central I'd be better served by a bank of TVMs (or even better implementing TfL style contactless) and a quality convenience store like a M&S Food...though that said there's a Sainsbury's Local straight outside!

That said, it might do well at some of the quieter stations where there isn't any kind of shopping facility nearby - those being the stations where they haven't done it. Maghull probably works, though - it's a very sprawling town with the centre a long way from either station.