Merseyrail overcharging Aintree racegoers?

[M28361M]

Saw an interesting post on Twitter this morning: [Link to original tweet]

@Merseytravel what a disgrace moorfields station separate office £5 return Aintree in normal office £4 appalling scam!!!!!

It appears that people going to Aintree are being directed to a separate ticket queue where they are sold a "special" £5 day ticket (the normal fare from Liverpool is £3.75 single, £4.05 return).

Doesn't seem like much in the grand scheme of things but take that extra 95p, multiply it by the numbers of people over the 3 days, and it would be a nice little earner for Merseyrail. However, I would have thought they are on quite dodgy ground with regard to the obligation to sell the cheapest and most appropriate ticket?

 

[MikeWh]

Is it any different to all of the hotels around Liverpool undoubtedly adding extra to their normal charges and the pubs sticking an extra pound or 2 onto their prices?

It is if it's still possible to get the normal priced tickets by other means. Online? TOD? Another Merseyrail station?

 

[OwlMan]

Apart from one tweet (with little details) is there any evidence for this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the same Merseyrail who are halving the service to Aughton Park and Town Green and fob me off on Twitter when I suggest the information on their website about this is a bit lacking give a typically useless and arrogant reply.

FWIW, in retrospect I think I'm going to travel to Burscough Bridge via Wigan instead and get picked up - best stay well away from Merseyrail on National day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW this:

Hi Michael, really sorry to hear this. If you wish to make a formal complaint with regards this, you can do so here: http://bit.ly/2qvTDJO ^LB

...is precisely the same fob-off I got from precisely the same Twitterer. It basically says "we are right, now go away". A horribly arrogant TOC, and not the first time - we have not forgotten the Giants debacle.

A person who would rather have a formal complaint logged against them than actually answer a simple question.

 

[The_Train]

It is if it's still possible to get the normal priced tickets by other means. Online? TOD? Another Merseyrail station?

Is that based on some sort of regulations TOCs are supposed to follow with regards to ticketing prices? Apologies, but I'm very much in the learning stages when it comes to ticketing and to me this just seems like opportunist price increases based on having a captive audience. Happens all the time in many lines of business

 

[tony_mac]

Is that based on some sort of regulations TOCs are supposed to follow with regards to ticketing prices?

Yes, there are all sort of regulations regarding pricing, for all sorts of reasons - not least because of the many millions of pounds of taxpayer's money they receive to provide the services...

 

[The_Train]

Yes, there are all sort of regulations regarding pricing, for all sorts of reasons - not least because of the many millions of pounds of taxpayer's money they receive to provide the services...

Ah yeah that makes sense and makes this different to those private companies that take advantage of major events

 

[Bertie the bus]

This is the same Merseyrail who are halving the service to Aughton Park and Town Green and fob me off on Twitter when I suggest the information on their website about this is a bit lacking give a typically useless and arrogant reply.

FWIW, in retrospect I think I'm going to travel to Burscough Bridge via Wigan instead and get picked up - best stay well away from Merseyrail on National day.

What response were you expecting? 'No, you’re right. Your specific journey is far more important than trying to maintain a workable timetable on Grand National weekend so we’ll reinstate the stops.' That sort of thing?

 

[Haywain]

who are halving the service to Aughton Park and Town Green ... the information on their website about this is a bit lacking

It's a half-hourly service all day at both stations, with times on the website. What were you expecting?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a half-hourly service all day at both stations, with times on the website. What were you expecting?

The website doesn't show the times from Ormskirk or from Liverpool Central, only departures from AP and TG. I Tweeted them asking that they feed back to the web team that this fairly key piece of information was missing (I got them from RTT in the end), and got a rather rude brush-off from a Twitterer who had very evidently not read my Tweet properly, so I pushed the point again. I got yet another fob-off, which was symbolic of the arrogance over the Giants thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What response were you expecting? 'No, you’re right. Your specific journey is far more important than trying to maintain a workable timetable on Grand National weekend so we’ll reinstate the stops.' That sort of thing?

1. An apology for it being necessary to do this and an explanation why (though I already know, this is basic customer service).
2. The times from Liverpool Central and Ormskirk I wanted (as the Ormskirk line is pure clockface, both of those could be summed up in a single sentence).
3. An apology for the missing information on the website, and a reply that it would be fed to the Web team for it to be added.

...is what I would have expected.

Instead I got a rude fob-off and a link to the journey planner (journey planners are not how you use a simple clockface network like Merseyrail), and finally a link to make a formal complaint.

If there is one thing that makes me very, very angry in a customer service setting, and certain to escalate things far further than would otherwise have happened, it's people who simply do not read what you send and send a standard response, which implied I was too thick to know how to use a journey planner. It is basic courtesy to read and respond to the question that was asked (even if it is with an apology and explanation as to why the request cannot be met) rather than sending standard responses.

 

[Haywain]

2. The times from Liverpool Central and Ormskirk I wanted (as the Ormskirk line is pure clockface, both of those could be summed up in a single sentence).

It says this:

Ormskirk line timetable changes

• Trains travelling from Liverpool towards Ormskirk will depart 8 minutes earlier than usual until 20:00.
• Trains travelling from Ormskirk towards Liverpool will depart 2 minutes earlier until 20:00.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It says this:

Where does that say which ones call at Aughton Park?

But even for other stations that information is lazy - giving the actual minutes past each hour would be the correct way to give that information.

 

[M28361M]

Further information...

Passed through Moorfields this afternoon on my way home from work. The "extra" ticket window (opposite the MtoGo), which I haven't seen used since the Lime Street closure last year, had a makeshift sign over it "AINTREE TICKETS £5". It was closed with the shutters down (presumably it was in use during the morning rush) so I don't know how the ticket selling arrangements would have worked.

I also saw some discarded tickets like this one. A Rail Rover for "ME NRTH LINE EVT" issued at "MR PAC", printed on April 1st for travel today.


I believe that is this ticket on BRFares.

I expect to be passing through Moorfields again on Saturday morning. If I do I will see what the arrangements are.

 

[mmh]

A special ticket at a price making it easier to sell lots of them very quickly seems quite sensible to me. No messing around with change, it can all be done with notes.

 

[Elecman]

I might be wrong but if that’s a Rover doesn’t it allow multiple journeys between the valid Stations not just 1 return journey?

 

[mmh]

I expected the card argument. It doesn't work here, it's an enormous race meeting, the opposite of the cashless society. People without a wad of notes for their day out will be massively in the minority.

 

[6Gman]

A special ticket at a price making it easier to sell lots of them very quickly seems quite sensible to me. No messing around with change, it can all be done with notes.

If it was £4.70 they'd need a hell of a lot of silver as a float!

The Rover element will also allow (I assume) return from Old Roan (which cleverclogs like I use to avoid queueing at Aintree post-racing) and nipping back into Liverpool during the day. Which some people do.

 

[M28361M]

If the £5 ticket is being offered as an additional option to passengers wanting flexibility (although I'm sceptical that many people going from Liverpool to Aintree will want to do the extra trips that a Rover would allow) then I think that is fine. Even then, though, an Area C Day Saver at £4 is cheaper.

However, if the ticket offices are simply saying £5 for a ticket to Aintree, take it or leave it, and not offering the normal single/return tickets, then I don't think that should be allowed.

The tweet I quoted in my first post, and the sign I saw at Moorfields, would imply that only the £5 ticket is being offered, but I am not 100% sure on this point. If anyone can clarify, that would be helpful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it was £4.70 they'd need a hell of a lot of silver as a float!

The Rover element will also allow (I assume) return from Old Roan (which cleverclogs like I use to avoid queueing at Aintree post-racing) and nipping back into Liverpool during the day. Which some people do.

Charge 4.00 to those presenting a race ticket, then. Just need a stack of quids. The extra income will be huge with the passenger numbers.

A civilised country would put a levy on the races tickets and make it free.

Just yet another cynical scheme by an outrageously arrogant TOC. They need hauling through the coals for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I expected the card argument. It doesn't work here, it's an enormous race meeting, the opposite of the cashless society. People without a wad of notes for their day out will be massively in the minority.

People without a card will be massively in the minority, too. Cash will be for betting and the bar.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I might be wrong but if that’s a Rover doesn’t it allow multiple journeys between the valid Stations not just 1 return journey?

So does the £4.70 all zones day ticket. Which has more validity than this one.

Edit: no it doesn't, sorry, it's £5.30 now. However an Anytime Day Return to Old Roan is 4.30.

 

[6Gman]

If the £5 ticket is being offered as an additional option to passengers wanting flexibility (although I'm sceptical that many people going from Liverpool to Aintree will want to do the extra trips that a Rover would allow) then I think that is fine. Even then, though, an Area C Day Saver at £4 is cheaper.

However, if the ticket offices are simply saying £5 for a ticket to Aintree, take it or leave it, and not offering the normal single/return tickets, then I don't think that should be allowed.

The tweet I quoted in my first post, and the sign I saw at Moorfields, would imply that only the £5 ticket is being offered, but I am not 100% sure on this point. If anyone can clarify, that would be helpful.

I often visit the National meeting (not for the horses) and have always been able to obtain the full range of tickets.

But I'll check on Saturday.

 

[Llandudno]

TfGM also operate a similar wheeze at the Etihad Stadium on Metrolink.

Recently attended a MCFC match, I walked from Piccadilly Station to the ground, about 25 minutes walk. After the match as it was raining heavily I decided to catch the tram back. No access given to ticket machines so had to buy an event ticket for £4 just to go three stops! Approx twice the normal fare!

Had to queue for 30 minutes to get on a packed tram, won’t bother in future!

 

[mmh]

Charge 4.00 to those presenting a race ticket, then. Just need a stack of quids. The extra income will be huge with the passenger numbers.

A civilised country would put a levy on the races tickets and make it free.

Just yet another cynical scheme by an outrageously arrogant TOC. They need hauling through the coals for it.

With the five quid tickets:

Group of four are in the queue, see the five quid sign. Twenty quid, I'll get them. Pay me later or buy me a drink. One of four people get to the counter. "Four to Aintree please"; "Twenty pounds please"; one person hands over cash and is given pre-printed tickets.

Other people seem to be suggesting:

Sign says 4.70 return or 4.05 or 4.00 with a ticket. Group of four have no idea what the fare is so have an elaborate discussion at the counter, including one or more of them paying separately, digging out tickets to get their 30p, 95p or pound discount and waiting for the tickets to be printed and waiting for card transactions or change.

Hmm.

 

[infobleep]

With the five quid tickets:

Group of four are in the queue, see the five quid sign. Twenty quid, I'll get them. Pay me later or buy me a drink. One of four people get to the counter. "Four to Aintree please"; "Twenty pounds please"; one person hands over cash and is given pre-printed tickets.

Other people seem to be suggesting:

Sign says 4.70 return or 4.05 or 4.00 with a ticket. Group of four have no idea what the fare is so have an elaborate discussion at the counter, including one or more of them paying separately, digging out tickets to get their 30p, 95p or pound discount and waiting for the tickets to be printed and waiting for card transactions or change.

Hmm.

Someone has a mobile with Apple, Android or Samsung Pay. They tap the card reader for the ticket costs and move on once handed said tickets.

Someone else comes up and has to rummage in their bag to find their purse to pull out their cash. Yes I'm aware someone might need to do that for their card too.

The point is just because it's a cashless transaction, it doesn't mean it will automatically be slower. Be maybe faster.

 

[paddington]

Paying £5 with notes when the price is known in advance, even if change (in notes) is given, is always going to be faster than using card. As long as the ticket sellers have eyes and two hands.

The people who would start rummaging around for cash when they get to the front of the queue, would also not have their card / device ready if they didn't want to use cash.

Contactless transactions take 2-3 seconds for the card machine to get ready and then to process. If you pay with a £5 note the transaction is complete as soon as the ticket seller can see that you have a fiver ready to give to them. If they can see you have a tenner or twenty, they can get your change before actually accepting the payment, the only thing that might slow this down is if someone wanted to pay in coins or we had a counterfeit banknote problem.

 

[Silverdale]

Setting fares according to how quickly tickets can be issued is an interesting idea.

 

[sprunt]

With the five quid tickets:

Group of four are in the queue, see the five quid sign. Twenty quid, I'll get them. Pay me later or buy me a drink. One of four people get to the counter. "Four to Aintree please"; "Twenty pounds please"; one person hands over cash and is given pre-printed tickets.

Other people seem to be suggesting:

...that the railway doesn't rip people off by selling them* a ticket that costs more than the ticket they actually need. Is that really an outrageous expectation?

*Where "them" is non-regular train users, who aren't aware that there's a valid cheaper ticket for their journey, and are almost certainly not expecting to be conned like this.