Merseyrail Penalty Fare - No facility to purchase

[Haywain]

To decide if someone should receive a penalty notice or be prosecuted? Yes, of course I do. We have a judicial system for a reason, and as I said the railway shows little ability to use the additional powers it has with any consistency, so it's high time those powers were removed from it.

So you want some sort of outside agency doing ticket checking? Because that’s where it would have to start. And that’s unrealistic.

 

[Starmill]

Those people are often the same ones who will happily take the opportunity not to pay ("pay when challenged"). The question is how you tell the difference.

Of course, it's difficult to tell the difference when you choose not to make a relevant, common ticket available for purchase. If there's doubt about the matter the customer should not be penalised. If you don't want there to be doubt, make sure that the relevant tickets are all on sale. It's really not difficult.

 

[m_m]

Before any criminal prosecution, the railway must consider exactly the same things as the CPS/police - this includes the public interest test and the evidential test. They do not have to go to an outside body, but they do need to show that they have carefully considered whether the prosecution case meets both tests. There has been recent caselaw about this in regards to an 'animal charity' who seemed to have a blanket policy of 'prosecute everyone' - it didn't go well for them when the courts started digging into their decision making process.

Based on the very unscientific approach of 'looking on these forums' I do have an inkling that some TOCs have a blanket approach and, to be honest, if this is true then I hope they get slapped down at court. If this particular TOC does try to take a criminal case then it might expose that they haven't properly considered either of the above tests. On the other hand, they may have considered everything properly, who knows.

Obviously none of this helps in regards to a penalty fare or other process short of prosecution.

In regards to whether some decision can be 'binding' on a Mags court....the answer is only decisions made by a higher court. Magistrates courts are not even bound by the decisions made by other courts, or even the same court on the same day.

 

[some bloke]

The liability to pay a penalty fare and the commission of a bylaw or RoRA offence are entirely separate, and proceedings in relation to one are of no formal relevance relating to the other.

...decisions of administrative decision makers (and magistrates' courts) do not have any precedental value.

"Appeal panel" decisions are not binding on Magistrates

I'm not talking about binding legal precedents - clearly the panel can't set those. The issue is whether the panel's decisions, responses and/or non-responses may be evidence for reasonable doubt.

A passenger might produce a good argument that they acted on the basis of a reasonable inference from one or more of the panel's decisions. Would we be as likely to convict someone on a RoRA charge if they said "I thought it was OK because after I made my case to the panel, it overturned the penalty fare", or "...the panel has overturned penalty fares in the following cases in which the passenger put forward the same grounds"? It might contribute to reasonable doubt.

And that assumes that there even was a decision; the OP says in post 31 that the penalty fare was "dropped" which could mean Miseryrail decided to cancel it when faced with the appeal.

"On appeal" in a report usually means "when the appeal was decided". It isn't immediately obvious to me that the resources allocated involve appeal panels giving details of penalty fare appeals to the train company, and then the company taking time to reassess their position. @L401CJF 's post reads like he's reporting a success, whereas if the company cancelled the penalty fare before the appeal and the time limit, other things being equal it wouldn't be a complete success because they could now prosecute.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Of course, it's difficult to tell the difference when you choose not to make a relevant, common ticket available for purchase. If there's doubt about the matter the customer should not be penalised. If you don't want there to be doubt, make sure that the relevant tickets are all on sale. It's really not difficult.

This.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

This.....

It's long been a problem that PTE tickets were not available at TVMs. It indeed needs fixing. A cynic would suggest Merseyrail wish to sell their poorer-value 10p cheaper day tickets instead, really these need removing from sale entirely, they are as bad as TOCs undercutting each other by 10p on Advances.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

It's long been a problem that PTE tickets were not available at TVMs. It indeed needs fixing. A cynic would suggest Merseyrail wish to sell their poorer-value 10p cheaper day tickets instead, really these need removing from sale entirely, they are as bad as TOCs undercutting each other by 10p on Advances.

There needs to be some absolute rule though that if a passenger cannot buy the ticket they want before boarding, then they can buy on board or at destination, and must not be penalised for it, if that is open to abuse its up to the TOC's to make sure all tickets are available from the TVM or have a staffed office that can supply the full range.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There needs to be some absolute rule though that if a passenger cannot buy the ticket they want before boarding, then they can buy on board or at destination, and must not be penalised for it, if that is open to abuse its up to the TOC's to make sure all tickets are available from the TVM or have a staffed office that can supply the full range.

TfL's TVMs issue Oyster including the actual cards. So there's no reason other than "can't be bothered"/"cost" that Merseyrail couldn't have them issue their smartcard.

 

[lyndhurst25]

TfL's TVMs issue Oyster including the actual cards. So there's no reason other than "can't be bothered"/"cost" that Merseyrail couldn't have them issue their smartcard.

If the cost of enabling smartcard writers on the TVMs is an issue, Saveaways can simply be issued on standard credit card sized ticket stock instead (if you buy one form the booking office at a City Line station in Merseyside then that is what you get), it is just MerseyRail’s decision not to do so. The cynic inside me thinks that this is done to make the Saveaway more hassle to buy than the Merseyrail Daysaver.

 

[Starmill]

It's long been a problem that PTE tickets were not available at TVMs.

These used to be available from Merseyrail ticket machines though. It's only because they wanted to issue them on smartcards that it changed.

 

[Watershed]

Before any criminal prosecution, the railway must consider exactly the same things as the CPS/police - this includes the public interest test and the evidential test. They do not have to go to an outside body, but they do need to show that they have carefully considered whether the prosecution case meets both tests. There has been recent caselaw about this in regards to an 'animal charity' who seemed to have a blanket policy of 'prosecute everyone' - it didn't go well for them when the courts started digging into their decision making process.

I'd love this to be the case but I don't think it is. The evidential test sort of exists by virtue of a poorly considered prosecution potentially giving rise to civil or criminal liability - e.g. for malicious prosecution. But there is no public interest test for private prosecutions and indeed that is one of the biggest problems I see with the way things are currently set up.

There are plenty of mechanisms TOCs can use to pursue people who don't have a valid ticket, such as Anytime fares under the NRCoT, Penalty Fares, and ultimately the County Court - yet they routinely choose to use an obscure Byelaw that was never intended to be used in this manner. How can that possibly be in the public interest?

 

[L401CJF]

If the cost of enabling smartcard writers on the TVMs is an issue, Saveaways can simply be issued on standard credit card sized ticket stock instead (if you buy one form the booking office at a City Line station in Merseyside then that is what you get), it is just MerseyRail’s decision not to do so. The cynic inside me thinks that this is done to make the Saveaway more hassle to buy than the Merseyrail Daysaver.

Youre not wrong, I have asked for Saveaways at offices in the past and been issued a ME only daysaver.

The saveaway can even be issued on bogroll tickets from Conductors with the barcodes on. Bet theyre not easily accepted at gatelines or on board buses!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

There are plenty of mechanisms TOCs can use to pursue people who don't have a valid ticket, (...) yet they routinely choose to use an obscure Byelaw that was never intended to be used in this manner. How can that possibly be in the public interest?

What other purpose do you suggest was behind the creation of byelaw 18 other than the deterrence of travel without a valid ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The saveaway can even be issued on bogroll tickets from Conductors with the barcodes on. Bet theyre not easily accepted at gatelines or on board buses!

Greater Manchester's version can be issued on all sorts, e.g. tram tickets, bogroll, CCST and bus tickets. It does cause odd acceptance problems, but it does show it's possible.

 

[Watershed]

What other purpose do you suggest was behind the creation of byelaw 18 other than the deterrence of travel without a valid ticket?

It's all down to when the the current Byelaws were made in 2005 - the vast majority were just straight-up lifted from the previous (ex-BR) Byelaws, and that includes Byelaw 18.

But where the equivalent of Byelaw 18 previously just meant you could be removed from the railway with reasonable force, or have to provide your name and address, a very small change in the drafting meant it was no longer included in the list of Byelaws (as Byelaw 17 still is) which it's an offence to breach, but for which offence there is no penalty.

It is very unclear why this change occurred and there is speculation that it is simply an error or oversight.

 

[island]

Before any criminal prosecution, the railway must consider exactly the same things as the CPS/police - this includes the public interest test and the evidential test. They do not have to go to an outside body, but they do need to show that they have carefully considered whether the prosecution case meets both tests.

No, they don't.

 

[WesternLancer]

Youre not wrong, I have asked for Saveaways at offices in the past and been issued a ME only daysaver.

The saveaway can even be issued on bogroll tickets from Conductors with the barcodes on. Bet theyre not easily accepted at gatelines or on board buses!

So what is the reason for not offering this (Saveaway) ticket at all points of sale? Is it that a commission goes to the bus operators from the sale and they are reluctant to facilitate that or something. It would clearly seem like a ticket plenty of people would want to have for a days use.

I think I had one once many years ago on a visit to Liverpool (10 years) and in those days it was scratch off card - think I got it from tourist info place a short walk from Lime Street.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think genuinely Merseyrail is not bothered about Capenhurst, Bache, Little Sutton and Overpool. They are the quietest stations and so get the bare minimum - if anything they get more than they got in BR days when it was local tickets only, cash only, written on an XS pad in biro. It also wasn't that long ago that Saveaways weren't valid to them anyway (or Town Green/Aughton Park/Ormskirk) so people probably aren't conditioned to use them.

They are sold at the booking offices at all other stations.

 

[L401CJF]

So what is the reason for not offering this (Saveaway) ticket at all points of sale? Is it that a commission goes to the bus operators from the sale and they are reluctant to facilitate that or something. It would clearly seem like a ticket plenty of people would want to have for a days use.

I think I had one once many years ago on a visit to Liverpool (10 years) and in those days it was scratch off card - think I got it from tourist info place a short walk from Lime Street.

The whole thing is a joke. The intention was all PTE products - Saveaway, Solo,Trio and Railpass could be loaded onto the ITSO cards. Near 10 years later and its only recently become possible to load the Railpass onto them. Trio still not available. Solo was to be rolled out on them to topup onboard buses, around 4 years ago this was rolled out for one morning, due to a technical issue was axed the same day, and never came back since. Paper issue one day Solo (bus only) is available onboard buses. Other periods are available at paypoint and bus stations.

Considering in Manchester the system 1 day passes for bus tram train can be sold on a bus, tram etc shows how easy it is to do, but Merseytravel just seem incapable.

GMs "igo" card for ID for child fare is a brilliant scheme too and works well from my experience, unlike Merseytravel who dont care about revenue lost from sale of Child fare passes to any age.

 

[WesternLancer]

The whole thing is a joke. The intention was all PTE products - Saveaway, Solo,Trio and Railpass could be loaded onto the ITSO cards. Near 10 years later and its only recently become possible to load the Railpass onto them. Trio still not available. Solo was to be rolled out on them to topup onboard buses, around 4 years ago this was rolled out for one morning, due to a technical issue was axed the same day, and never came back since. Paper issue one day Solo (bus only) is available onboard buses. Other periods are available at paypoint and bus stations.

Considering in Manchester the system 1 day passes for bus tram train can be sold on a bus, tram etc shows how easy it is to do, but Merseytravel just seem incapable.

GMs "igo" card for ID for child fare is a brilliant scheme too and works well from my experience, unlike Merseytravel who dont care about revenue lost from sale of Child fare passes to any age.

Sounds woeful - you would think the PTEs across different areas could have worked together to commission one software system that would have done for all of them and worked everywhere....

 

[m_m]

No, they don't.

They absolutely do.

It is no coincidence that the cross country policy (page 9 and 10) is almost exactly the same as the CPS wording -

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/media/1496/xctl-115-prosecutions-policy-issue-3-nov-2016.pdf

If they don't have the evidence and/or the prosecution is not in the public interest, the TOCs can't (or at least shouldn't) prosecute.

 

[Djgr]

I think genuinely Merseyrail is not bothered about Capenhurst, Bache, Little Sutton and Overpool. They are the quietest stations and so get the bare minimum - if anything they get more than they got in BR days when it was local tickets only, cash only, written on an XS pad in biro. It also wasn't that long ago that Saveaways weren't valid to them anyway (or Town Green/Aughton Park/Ormskirk) so people probably aren't conditioned to use them.

They are sold at the booking offices at all other stations.

Like so many problems on the railways it's to do with so many separate organisations with different objectives all being involved.

That said I'm not sure if everyone had their time again that Ellesmere Port would be electrified as a branch. Whilst Merseyrail to Chester appears a stunning and evergrowing success, the Port branch languishes.

 

[Watershed]

It is no coincidence that the cross country policy (page 9 and 10) is almost exactly the same as the CPS wording -

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/media/1496/xctl-115-prosecutions-policy-issue-3-nov-2016.pdf

That may well be their stated policy - though we have seen enough unmeritorious prosecutions by XC (or TIL on their behalf) to demonstrate that this is clearly not applied in practice.

And even if it were the case, the fact that they choose to adopt that policy doesn't make it the law. In the same way that they could choose to have a policy of never prosecuting people - but that wouldn't mean that there are no crimes being committed.

If they don't have the evidence and/or the prosecution is not in the public interest, the TOCs can't (or at least shouldn't) prosecute.

You have rather unhelpfully mixed up different issues there.

If a prosecutor doesn't have enough evidence to justify a prosecution, they in theory aren't allowed to bring a prosecution. But if they nevertheless do, the available recourse is so limited and difficult to obtain that "can't" is effectively more of a "shouldn't" here.

If the prosecution isn't in the public interest, then morally private prosecutors shouldn't bring a prosecution. But you have absolutely no recourse if they do - beyond asking the CPS or Court to intervene, both of which are exceptionally unlikely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That said I'm not sure if everyone had their time again that Ellesmere Port would be electrified as a branch. Whilst Merseyrail to Chester appears a stunning and evergrowing success, the Port branch languishes.

Agreed. 4tph to Chester, with Ellesmere Port-Helsby a DMU shuttle with plans to move to battery by now, probably would have been better for everyone.

 

[L401CJF]

After a lot of chase up emails trying to get an official method of dealing with this from Merseyrail, they have finally got back to me.

As suggested by another poster a few pages back, they advise to buy a Merseyrail Daysaver from the TVM and exchange it for a Saveaway at whichever staffed station is most convenient.

They state

Rather than purchase a single ticket which may well be extra than a Saveaway, customers can purchase a Merseyrail day saver from the TVM and then exchange for a Saveaway at any staffed station, with both a day saver and Saveaway being off peak tickets the day saver will be a few pence cheaper than the Saveaway. We don’t expect our customers to travel to say Hooton, then resume their journeys but rather to exchange tickets en route when convenient to them.

They also say they are looking to improve availability of these tickets, presumably via online purchase on the Metrocard site.

Hopefully station staff are able to do the exchange hassle free, and I hope this thread has provided some help for those like myself who have to use the unstaffed stations.

 

[Starmill]

Hopefully station staff are able to do the exchange hassle free

I would be very surprised if that were the case!

 

[Kite159]

I would be very surprised if that were the case!

Agreed, some ticket offices will be fine with it, others will go "sorry can't be done here" as it will be too much like hard work.

A solution will be to have the all area Saveaway ticket available to purchase from TVMs. No hassles with having to buy the more restricted Merseyrail only product and hope the ticket office can change it.