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Merseytravel PTE and a Greater Manchester Train Card combinations

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Wirral

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Is it possible to travel from Liverpool to Manchester with a Merseytravel PTE and a Greater Manchester Train Card, looking at the Maps of both they look to meet between Newton Le Willows and Patricroft.

The Merseytravel PTE is £1037, the Greater Manchester Train Card is £906 whilst an annual season ticket is £2888 from Liverpool. The added benefit of the Merseytravel card is the travel to and from Lime Street is included and if I wanted to pay a bit more for the Manchester Card it could include all buses as well locally.

There are trains that I would be interested travelling on through Newton le Willows.

10:16 Liverpool Lime Street [LIV] 1 Manchester Piccadilly [MAN] 11:01 13 0h 45m • •
Calling points Arrives Departs
Wavertree Technology Park [WAV]
10:21 10:21
St Helens Junction [SHJ]
10:31 10:31
Newton-le-Willows [NLW]
10:37 10:37
Manchester Oxford Road [MCO]
10:57 10:59


Any help would be appreciated.
 
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scrapy

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You would additionally need a season ticket between Newton and Patricroft. Merseytravel ticket only valid Liverpool to Newton and TFGM Countycard only valid Patricroft to Manchester.
 
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Wirral

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Thought it would not be that straight forward. Its an expensive season ticket for 1 stop and circ 15 miles.

Newton Le Willows to Patricroft (PAT)
Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (Travel is allowed via any permitted route.)

Days/Months Price Average journey price*
7 Days £33.50 £3.35
1 Month £128.70 -
3 Months £386.00 -
6 Months £771.90 -
12 Months £1,340.00 £2.79
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Manchester Piccadilly, Victoria, Oxford Road or Deansgate to Newton Le Willows
Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (Travel is allowed via any permitted route.)

Days/Months Price Average journey price*
7 Days £36.40 £3.64
1 Month £139.80 -
3 Months £419.40 -
6 Months £838.70 -
12 Months £1,456.00 £3.03

Would this then be valid with the Merseytravel PTE as long as the train stops at Newton Le Willows.
 
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bb21

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Yes, the Manchester Stns - Newton-le-Willows season ticket can be used in conjunction with a Merseytravel Railpass on any train via Newton-le-Willows, regardless of whether it stops.
 

Merseysider

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Yes, the Manchester Stns - Newton-le-Willows season ticket can be used in conjunction with a Merseytravel Railpass on any train via Newton-le-Willows, regardless of whether it stops.

This would be because one is a season ticket and the other is not; it is a PTE product, correct?

Looking at Northern's network map the two boundaries appear to join inbetween NLW and PAT. So if you could find a GM zonal ticket, I suppose you could combine that with a Merseytravel Trio/Railpass at that's a zonal product.

Eg like a Saveaway and GM Rail Ranger, but for longer.
 

bb21

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This would be because one is a season ticket and the other is not; it is a PTE product, correct?

Correct.

Looking at Northern's network map the two boundaries appear to join inbetween NLW and PAT. So if you could find a GM zonal ticket, I suppose you could combine that with a Merseytravel Trio/Railpass at that's a zonal product.

Eg like a Saveaway and GM Rail Ranger, but for longer.

50 shades of grey.
 

scrapy

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This would be because one is a season ticket and the other is not; it is a PTE product, correct?

Looking at Northern's network map the two boundaries appear to join inbetween NLW and PAT. So if you could find a GM zonal ticket, I suppose you could combine that with a Merseytravel Trio/Railpass at that's a zonal product.

Eg like a Saveaway and GM Rail Ranger, but for longer.

Whilst Northerns network map may show that, the network map is not designed to show ticket validity and makes no reference to them. It is there to show who subsidises services (which is why Dinting, Glossop and Hadfield is shown as being outside GM even though GM tickets valid). The system one publicity leaflets and national rail maps do not show the merseytravel boundary for Tfgm tickets and dont even show the line continuing past Patricroft on some versions so it would be difficult to argue the tickets advertised to Merseyside boundary.

The Tfgm publicity really needs updating to show the line continuing from Patricroft to Wigan NW though.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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....Looking at Northern's network map the two boundaries appear to join inbetween NLW and PAT. So if you could find a GM zonal ticket, I suppose you could combine that with a Merseytravel Trio/Railpass at that's a zonal product.

Eg like a Saveaway and GM Rail Ranger, but for longer.

You need to look at the product maps and not the Northern Rail maps. The Merseytravel leaflet shows rail lines right to the border, but the TfGM leaflet shows the Traincard/Countycard only goes as far as Patricroft.
 

Wirral

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Is it a grey area then if they do actually meet or not? Or as advised Merseytravel PTE valid to Newton Le Willows and Greater Manchester Train Card valid to Patricroft and in between is not covered by either.
 

bb21

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As I said, 50 shades of grey.

Even if they are both zonal tickets, there is no clear evidence whether the boundaries join up.
 

brompton rail

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As I said, 50 shades of grey.

Even if they are both zonal tickets, there is no clear evidence whether the boundaries join up.

I was under the impression that cross boundary journeys using adjacent PTE's multi- journey tickets are only possible if the boundary station is designated as being in BOTH PTE areas. The only stations I know to fit that are...
Darton,
Denby Dale,
Moorthorpe
South Elmsall.
The first is in South Yorkshire and the others in West Yorkshire, but both PTEs have designated the boundary stations as common and both PTE's multi journey tickets are valid. They aren't valid on a non-stopping service however, but only valid to the previous stop.
 

bb21

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Yes, it is open to interpretation. Merseytravel's map of its PTE area appears to show the area of validity extending past NLW. But I'm not trying to argue the case that it's definitely valid, it may well not be.

I don't think it is the Merseytravel map that is the cause of argument, but rather the GM one.

I was under the impression that cross boundary journeys using adjacent PTE's multi- journey tickets are only possible if the boundary station is designated as being in BOTH PTE areas. The only stations I know to fit that are...
Darton,
Denby Dale,
Moorthorpe
South Elmsall.
The first is in South Yorkshire and the others in West Yorkshire, but both PTEs have designated the boundary stations as common and both PTE's multi journey tickets are valid. They aren't valid on a non-stopping service however, but only valid to the previous stop.

Zonal tickets can join up without the boundary being explicitly stations. A clear example is the London Travelcards, where numerically coded zones are defined as being adjacent to each other explicitly, so a Zones 1-2 Travelcard can be used in conjunction with a Zones 3-6 Travelcard without needing a ticket in the middle to bridge a gap (unless you are the RPI jonmorris0844 encountered a few years ago). Some people argue that Rangers and Rovers (including many PTE products) are also zonal tickets, as they fit the definition quite literally. The difficulty however is in deciding whether such "zones" join up in the absence of boundary stations which fall under both areas.

In the absence of clear information, I would advise caution.
 

bb21

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GMPTE's map seems to show the area of validity extending far beyond Patricroft.

But is the GMPTE map equivalent to the validity map of the Traincard?

The Traincard validity map I can find seems to suggest that validity stops at Patricroft.

In addition, how do we know how far validity extends beyond Patricroft on your map and how far it extends beyond Newton-le-Willows on the Merseytravel map?

That's why there is confusion, and the whole thing is not very clearly defined.
 

Merseysider

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But is the GMPTE map equivalent to the validity map of the Traincard?

The Traincard validity map I can find seems to suggest that validity stops at Patricroft.
Greater Manchester Traincard said:
With a Traincard you can save money and travel as many times as you like on journeys anywhere in the Greater Manchester ticketing area.
GMPTE's ticketing area is explicitly shown on the map I linked to above as extending beyond several stations, including Patricroft, so I'd be inclined to say validity doesn't end at the station, rather midway along the line.
bb21 said:
In addition, how do we know how far validity extends beyond Patricroft on your map and how far it extends beyond Newton-le-Willows on the Merseytravel map?
A very good question!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Merseyside and Greater Manchester boundaries appear to correlate, like a jigsaw, near Newton-le-Willows.
 
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Solent&Wessex

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This debate has been had on here before, and I have also seen the debate going on internally.

Basically tickets only have validity to Stations. Not mysterious fields or the wilderness in the middle of nowhere. Tickets can be combined, in various ways and combinations, at stations, and only stations, not the middle of nowhere.

Thus TfGM tickets finish at Patricroft and Merseytravel ones finish at Newton-le-Willows. Neither of them are valid at the same station so thus to travel throughout you need a ticket for the section not covered by either ticket.

The way the maps are drawn is irrelevant.
 

Merseysider

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Basically tickets only have validity to Stations. Not mysterious fields or the wilderness in the middle of nowhere. Tickets can be combined, in various ways and combinations, at stations, and only stations, not the middle of nowhere.

That's simply not true, look at the London Underground network map. Tickets for one zone can be combined with a ticket for another zone, even if the station inbetween does not fall on a zonal boundary. So in other words, tickets with zonal validity cover a zone, so even if there was a volcano or mysterious field after a station, if it was within the area boundary, it would be covered.
 

Solent&Wessex

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That's simply not true, look at the London Underground network map. Tickets for one zone can be combined with a ticket for another zone, even if the station inbetween does not fall on a zonal boundary. So in other words, tickets with zonal validity cover a zone, so even if there was a volcano or mysterious field after a station, if it was within the area boundary, it would be covered.

Firstly London Underground is different to National Rail ticketing products. Whatever rules London Underground have is irrelevant. If you are referring to TfL maps and fares in general then that is a self contained ticketing system in much the same way as WYPTE has zones within its system, as does Merseytravel. There is no ambiguity if you are using all TfL area tickets.

However Merseyrail and TfGM tickets are very different ticketing products.

The verdict from ATOC at the time it was last raised was (the WYPTE / GMPTE boundary was under question):
ATOC said:
Whilst there is some opportunity to be clearer about what a zonal ticket
is, I have to say in this case the issue is clear cut. If you are using two
separate zonal products (i.e. not simply additional zones of the same
product) there must be an overlap in the stations of validity (nothing to
do about notional boundaries).

In this case the passenger should have held, in addition to the zonal
tickets, a Marsden to Greenfield ticket, since by definition, neither
product covers this part of the journey. The rule about whether the train
needs to stop or not refers to actual stations, not notional border points!
 

Merseysider

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The verdict from ATOC at the time it was last raised was (the WYPTE / GMPTE boundary was under question):
The verdict from ATOC at the time it was last raised was (the WYPTE / GMPTE boundary was under question):
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATOC
Whilst there is some opportunity to be clearer about what a zonal ticket
is, I have to say in this case the issue is clear cut. If you are using two
separate zonal products (i.e. not simply additional zones of the same
product) there must be an overlap in the stations of validity (nothing to
do about notional boundaries).

In this case the passenger should have held, in addition to the zonal
tickets, a Marsden to Greenfield ticket, since by definition, neither
product covers this part of the journey. The rule about whether the train
needs to stop or not refers to actual stations, not notional border points.
That is interesting, and I suppose clarifies the case at hand. Thank you for providing that.
 

Wirral

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Probably not the answer I wanted and going to cost more as the system is always designed to do but at least it looks clear cut now.

Many thanks for all your assistance it has been very useful.
 
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