Metrolink coming to Bolton (?) - Shapps

[boltontopcat]

Well, I would dispute that the Atherton line is 'ripe for metrolink'. It's far too long for a start.

If the Minister is saying Bolton, I would have thought he'd mean Bolton the town, otherwise we could advertise Rochdale as being on trans-pennine by way of having a a station at Greenford.

If he means from Bury, one of the benefits of a tram is that it could skirt around the development on the route.

How is it too long? The tram manages to travel from Altrincham to Bury, which is the same distance as Manchester to Wigan Wallgate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How is it too long? The tram manages to travel from Altrincham to Bury, which is the same distance as Manchester to Wigan Wallgate.

My personal view is that it's a perfect fit. Kirkby could go over to Merseyrail and Southport all run via Bolton as they used to anyway.

Trams to *Bolton* I don't quite understand, unless the idea is to start putting a circumferential route together i.e. from Bury.

Edit: Actually, it looks like most of the formation from Radcliffe is intact and it'd be a short route. Interesting.

 

[boltontopcat]

I am sure that owners of houses on that proposed route would be delighted to give up living in existing houses in the area, just so a tram line could be instated...

Perhaps you may like to visit the proposed properties and put your stated reasons to them for consideration and show proposed areas where they may be relocated. One matter would possibly of worry to them and that is having to source new schools for their children to attend with all the educational disruption that would entail.

Firstly you could say that about just about any road/motorway rail/tram line that has ever been built. It is always necessary to knock something down. It is also bound to involve some disruption.
Secondly if you buy a house built on a former railway line you run the risk that it might want to be used again either for some form of road or heavy/light railway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Firstly you could say that about just about any road/motorway rail/tram line that has ever been built. It is always necessary to knock something down. It is also bound to involve some disruption.
Secondly if you buy a house built on a former railway line you run the risk that it might want to be used again either for some form of road or heavy/light railway.

Not wishing to repeat what has been said both on this website and SkyScraper City over the years, Bolton now has a brand new bus station built next to the railway station where that interchange can already offer both bus and rail services to most local environs. I see no need whatsoever for a third mode of public transport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not wishing to repeat what has been said both on this website and SkyScraper City over the years, Bolton now has a brand new bus station built next to the railway station where that interchange can already offer both bus and rail services to most local environs. I see no need whatsoever for a third mode of public transport.

Bolton has had a bus station adjoining the railway station for 25+ years. That it does doesn't in my view influence what modes it should have.

 

[boltontopcat]

Re-quadruple the Atherton line as far as Walkden, use two tracks for Metrolink then send it over the old LNWR line through Little Hulton via Royal Bolton Hospital into town. A few snags with that though; part of the route is now a cycle track/footpath and not all the Atherton line will take two more tracks, especially where the M60 goes over. Also where would you connect to the existing Metrolink tracks?

Re-quadruple the Atherton line as far as Walkden, use two tracks for Metrolink then send it over the old LNWR line through Little Hulton via Royal Bolton Hospital into town. A few snags with that though; part of the route is now a cycle track/footpath and not all the Atherton line will take two more tracks, especially where the M60 goes over. Also where would you connect to the existing Metrolink tracks?

could you do it like this

My personal view is that it's a perfect fit. Kirkby could go over to Merseyrail and Southport all run via Bolton as they used to anyway.

Trams to *Bolton* I don't quite understand, unless the idea is to start putting a circumferential route together i.e. from Bury.

Edit: Actually, it looks like most of the formation from Radcliffe is intact and it'd be a short route. Interesting.

Yes obviously the tram in Bolton is about an obital route and going to places the train doesn’t
https://www.citymetric.com/sites/default/files/article_body_2019/01/final_circular_tram.jpg

 

[Jamesrob637]

could you do it like this

Yes obviously the tram in Bolton is about an obital route and going to places the train doesn’t
https://www.citymetric.com/sites/default/files/article_body_2019/01/final_circular_tram.jpgView attachment 80359

I'd love to see that as I live Stockport way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that orbital route a TfGM proposal or just that of the poster?

Notably, there used to be an orbital express bus route pretty much following that line (though only between Bolton and Stockport via Oldham, not on the south-east quadrant - I think it was the 400? So there is clearly demand, though if a bus route wasn't viable it must be low. When I was a student I did the whole thing once, though apart from near Oldham it can't really be considered particularly scenic. I think it took a good couple of hours.

A bit about the "Trans-Lancs Express" here:

400 Trans-Lancs Express: An Appreciation and an Obituary - Stuart Vallantine

Stuart Vallantine is a Dukinfield, UK based creative performance poet and visual artist, with both his drawings and poetry showing striking detail, and unique perspectives.

www.stuartvallantine.co.uk

 

[boltontopcat]

Not wishing to repeat what has been said both on this website and SkyScraper City over the years, Bolton now has a brand new bus station built next to the railway station where that interchange can already offer both bus and rail services to most local environs. I see no need whatsoever for a third mode of public transport.

Can you a name county in the south east that doesn’t have a least one if not two of the following, train, tram or underground line between its three largest towns? Why should we put up with it Imagine the tube in London without it’s circular lines.
Try commuting to Bury regularly by bus. Most mornings it takes an hour and a half sometimes two hours on the two buses I catch from Bolton. The distance is less than nine miles door to door. The odd morning it goes as it should then you’ve an hour to kill.
The new bus station is smaller than the old one, can’t cope with the volume of buses and is a waste of money.

 

[boltontopcat]

Is that orbital route a TfGM proposal or just that of the poster?

Notably, there used to be an orbital express bus route pretty much following that line (though only between Bolton and Stockport via Oldham, not on the south-east quadrant - I think it was the 400? So there is clearly demand, though if a bus route wasn't viable it must be low. When I was a student I did the whole thing once, though apart from near Oldham it can't really be considered particularly scenic. I think it took a good couple of hours.

A bit about the "Trans-Lancs Express" here:

400 Trans-Lancs Express: An Appreciation and an Obituary - Stuart Vallantine

Stuart Vallantine is a Dukinfield, UK based creative performance poet and visual artist, with both his drawings and poetry showing striking detail, and unique perspectives.

www.stuartvallantine.co.uk

No it not a TfGM proposal it’s just a fantasy/poster. If you would like to read the whole article google city metic orbital tram route.
I don’t think it should be a fantasy BTW because it’s all do-able for a small fraction of the cost of HS2. However we’re in the north west not the south east

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bolton has had a bus station adjoining the railway station for 25+ years. That it does doesn't in my view influence what modes it should have.

I am 75 years of age and have walked countless times from Bolton railway station to the original bus station which was next to the indoor and outdoor market prior to the new bus station being built and there is no way that you could describe them as "adjoining". Are you mistaking Bury for Bolton or confusing the existing Bolton railway station with the long-closed Bolton Great Moor Street railway station?

Can someone say what the actual distance was?

 

[Ianno87]

I am 75 years of age and have walked countless times from Bolton railway station to the original bus station which was next to the indoor and outdoor market prior to the new bus station being built and there is no way that you could describe them as "adjoining". Are you mistaking Bury for Bolton or confusing the existing Bolton railway station with the long-closed Bolton Great Moor Street railway station?

Can someone say what the actual distance was?

Bolton has had the "Interchange" adjoining the railway station since the mid-80s. It only had 6 stands and was served only by a selection of routes towards the north/west of town.

Moor Lane bus station (until a couple of years back the main bus station) was about a 5-10 minute walk away.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bolton has had the "Interchange" adjoining the railway station since the mid-80s. It only had 6 stands and was served only by a selection of routes towards the north/west of town.

Moor Lane bus station (until a couple of years back the main bus station) was about a 5-10 minute walk away.

Yes but note that the other contributor referred to the "6 stands" as "the bus station" whereas I made reference to the proper Moor Lane bus station with many stances that offered connections with a very wide range of destinations.

 

[Chester1]

How is it too long? The tram manages to travel from Altrincham to Bury, which is the same distance as Manchester to Wigan Wallgate.

Altrincham to Bury is effectively two lines with one through service and two separate services. There is a near complete turnover of passengers between Cornbrook and Victoria. I wouldn't fancy the end to end journey.

TfGM aspires to have every town linked to either National Rail or Metrolink, it doesn't need to be both. Currently Middleton, Heywood and Leigh have neither.

I have long supported NR buying the East Lancashire Railway from the Calder Valley line to Heywood with a single NR platform opposite ELR platform. Only one extra unit would be required to run an hourly service, which if an extension of an existing service would ease congestion at Victoria. A spur to Leigh would be expensive but a Parkway Station on passing loops boost Chat Moss line capacity and Busway services could be extended from the bus station to it. TfGM is working on plans for a branch from Crumpsall to Middleton. Only once those three are connected should they look at additional links for Bolton.

 

[boltontopcat]

Altrincham to Bury is effectively two lines with one through service and two separate services. There is a near complete turnover of passengers between Cornbrook and Victoria. I wouldn't fancy the end to end journey.

TfGM aspires to have every town linked to either National Rail or Metrolink, it doesn't need to be both. Currently Middleton, Heywood and Leigh have neither.

I have long supported NR buying the East Lancashire Railway from the Calder Valley line to Heywood with a single NR platform opposite ELR platform. Only one extra unit would be required to run an hourly service, which if an extension of an existing service would ease congestion at Victoria. A spur to Leigh would be expensive but a Parkway Station on passing loops boost Chat Moss line capacity and Busway services could be extended from the bus station to it. TfGM is working on plans for a branch from Crumpsall to Middleton. Only once those three are connected should they look at additional links for Bolton.

Whether it’s two lines or not it’s the same distance so the tram could cope....
I agree that Leigh should be high priority. It just about the largest town in the country that doesn’t have a train or tram station. Leigh should have several lines out of it including one going via Worsley and Walkden joining the line at Eccles.
It’s not a question of which should be done it all should be done.
The people of Greater Manchester should stop arguing amongst themselves saying Bolton first, Stockport first or Leigh first etc before we think about putting it in some where else.We should come together and demand it is all done as quickly as possible while both political parties are talking about doing something for us for a change. Plus the fact the country will probably not have another chance to borrow money this cheaply for infrastructure projects this century.
After all, as well as inadequate rail links we’re putting up with train rolling stock that’s often repainted cast offs from the south.
Bombardier who make the trams have to do a special addition for the metrolink which includes extra special cheap, nasty hard seats - because any old rubbish will do for the north! They wouldn’t dare put that seating in on south east commuter trains etc. Two and a half times the money per head is spent down there than it is spent up here.
If we did everything we all wanted it would still be a fraction of the cost of HS2 for instance. If that’s meant to help the north why don’t they start by building it in the north. I doubt that will ever get past Birmingham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we did everything we all wanted it would still be a fraction of the cost of HS2 for instance. If that’s meant to help the north why don’t they start by building it in the north. I doubt that will ever get past Birmingham.

It amazes me just how many people don't know what HS2 is for. Its primary purpose is to relieve capacity on the south WCML. Therefore, Phase 1 (London-Brum) is by far the most important bit to get built first.

 

[Nym]

Have you ever sat on a Tram in Croydon...?

 

[edwin_m]

Have you ever sat on a Tram in Croydon...?

Both the Croydon and the Metrolink trams are closely based on those supplied to Cologne, which unusually has some high and some low floor routes. I haven't tried the seats there myself but on a quick image search they look pretty similar.

 

[yorksrob]

How is it too long? The tram manages to travel from Altrincham to Bury, which is the same distance as Manchester to Wigan Wallgate.

That's not a comparison. Travelling from Altricham to Bury on the tram would take ages - most people travel from those places to central Manchester.

I know that there are certain quarters in Manchester who are obsessed with turning everything into a slow and winding tramway, however I'd like to keep my comparatively speedy journey between Atherton and the centre of Manchester. If you want to do something with the route, electrify it properly and have three four carriage trains an hour.

It's been well noted on this thread that there are many towns and settlements in the area that don't currently have a rail connection. Why are people not concentrating on these, instead of slowing down perfectly good existing rail links.

 

[Nym]

That's not a comparison. Travelling from Altricham to Bury on the tram would take ages - most people travel from those places to central Manchester.

I know that there are certain quarters in Manchester who are obsessed with turning everything into a slow and winding tramway, however I'd like to keep my comparatively speedy journey between Atherton and the centre of Manchester. If you want to do something with the route, electrify it properly and have three four carriage trains an hour.

It's been well noted on this thread that there are many towns and settlements in the area that don't currently have a rail connection. Why are people not concentrating on these, instead of slowing down perfectly good existing rail links.

That would be because slowing down perfectly good rail routes are much cheaper to convert, and the realisation that the quick win where trams could have been used to Leigh on the old trackbed is now a busway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That would be because slowing down perfectly good rail routes are much cheaper to convert, and the realisation that the quick win where trams could have been used to Leigh on the old trackbed is now a busway.

Have you ever travelled on the Leigh Guided Busway V1 service from Leigh bus station to Ellenbrook that was mainly the old rail route from and made note of the modern double-decker service provision. There are only certain well-placed stops that all serve communities and the buses reach quite a good speed on this section.

For those who still have aspirations for a heavy rail station in Leigh, where in the town centre do you envisage this to be or do you favour a parkway station in an out-of-town area. How much would it cost for the actual new Leigh station complex, plus signalling and trackwork needed to connect to a heavy rail line?

Remember those RMT strike days when local rail services did not offer a reasonable service provision, but the V1 service on the Leigh Guided Busway still provided a service provision at intervals that only "service down south" seem to accept as the norm.

 

[Chester1]

Have you ever travelled on the Leigh Guided Busway V1 service from Leigh bus station to Ellenbrook that was mainly the old rail route from and made note of the modern double-decker service provision. There are only certain well-placed stops that all serve communities and the buses reach quite a good speed on this section.

For those who still have aspirations for a heavy rail station in Leigh, where in the town centre do you envisage this to be or do you favour a parkway station in an out-of-town area how much would it cost for the actual new station complex, plus signalling and trackwork needed to connect to a heavy rail line?

Remember those RMT strike days when local rail services did not offer a reasonable service provision, but the V1 service on the Leigh Guided Busway still provided a service provision at intervals that only "service down south" seem to accept as the norm.

Agreed. The dislike of the busway amongst rail enthusiasts is not reflected by its usage. It was designed to be an affordable alternative to a tram or railway line, both of which are not financially viable. I suspect Bolton - Bury falls into this category. If there is significant demand on the corridor then a Busway should be considered, especially due to breaches in the old route.

A Leigh Parkway station on passing loops would improve the capacity of Chat Moss Line which would meet regional network goals. It would probably cost 10s of millions. If busway services were extended from the town centre it would enable a range of convenient journeys from places on the Guided Busway to places on rail network e.g. Ellenbrook to Liverpool.

 

[yorksrob]

That would be because slowing down perfectly good rail routes are much cheaper to convert, and the realisation that the quick win where trams could have been used to Leigh on the old trackbed is now a busway.

Indeed. It's no way to plan a transport network.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed. The dislike of the busway amongst rail enthusiasts is not reflected by its usage. It was designed to be an affordable alternative to a tram or railway line, both of which are not financially viable. I suspect Bolton - Bury falls into this category. If there is significant demand on the corridor then a Busway should be considered, especially due to breaches in the old route.

A Leigh Parkway station on passing loops would improve the capacity of Chat Moss Line which would meet regional network goals. It would probably cost 10s of millions. If busway services were extended from the town centre it would enable a range of convenient journeys from places on the Guided Busway to places on rail network e.g. Ellenbrook to Liverpool.

The bus way doesn't strike me as being particularly quick. The train takes around half an hour from Victoria to Atherton whereas the equivalent from Oxford Road seems to take twice as long.

 

[C J Snarzell]

The biggest issue with Bury is it doesn't have any direct rail transport links with it's two direct neighbours Bolton & Rochdale. Although it is home to the East Lancashire heritage railway - it doesn't have a dedicated traditional railway station.

Bury was actually one of the first locations to benefit from the Metrolink when it's first phase opened in 1992.

Anyone relying on public transport living in Bury generally has to make do with the bus services if they are going anywhere other than along the Metrolink corridor into Manchester Victoria.

Leigh is another town suffering from lack of rail links - it's train station closed in 1964. Leigh's biggest issue was being swollowed up by Wigan Borough following the alightment of the council boundaries in the 1970s. Leigh has become like the poorly treated cousin with all key services and investment being steered towards Wigan.

Leigh did benefit from the construction of a multi million pound busway connecting the town centre with central Manchester a few years ago which has improved transport links with the town.

Like I said previously I can't see anywhere else in the Greater Manchester region getting access to further Metrolink extensions given the financial devastation caused by the Covid19 crisis.

CJ

 

[boltontopcat]

That's not a comparison. Travelling from Altricham to Bury on the tram would take ages - most people travel from those places to central Manchester.

I know that there are certain quarters in Manchester who are obsessed with turning everything into a slow and winding tramway, however I'd like to keep my comparatively speedy journey between Atherton and the centre of Manchester. If you want to do something with the route, electrify it properly and have three four carriage trains an hour.

It's been well noted on this thread that there are many towns and settlements in the area that don't currently have a rail connection. Why are people not concentrating on these, instead of slowing down perfectly good existing rail links.

I know it not quicker I said it wasn’t so long so a tram couldn’t do it. So a tram can be used if that’s the solution which I don’t think it is in this instance.
I don’t want heavy rail lines down grading. Duplicating existing routes or down grading them is s nonsense.
The best solution is obviously full electrification of the line right through from Manchester to Southport no question. (Preferably with brand new rolling stock not cast off repainted 1980s DMUs from some where else!)
I am suggesting that part of that corridor where there is four line spaces can be used as a metolink circular line. As there would be dozens of stops and trams accelerate faster they would be suitable for this. It’s horses for courses.
This along with full electrification of all our heavy rail, would speed up on the longer journeys and create thousands of new combinations and avoid having to go into Manchester to get to other places which is the case much of the time.

 

[yorksrob]

I know it not quicker I said it wasn’t so long so a tram couldn’t do it. So a tram can be used if that’s the solution which I don’t think it is in this instance.
I don’t want heavy rail lines down grading. Duplicating existing routes or down grading them is s nonsense.
The best solution is obviously full electrification of the line right through from Manchester to Southport no question. (Preferably with brand new rolling stock not cast off repainted 1980s DMUs from some where else!)
I am suggesting that part of that corridor where there is four line spaces can be used as a metolink circular line. As there would be dozens of stops and trams accelerate faster they would be suitable for this. It’s horses for courses.
This along with full electrification of all our heavy rail, would speed up on the longer journeys and create thousands of new combinations and avoid having to go into Manchester to get to other places which is the case much of the time.
View attachment 80409

I've no objection to the tram being used for new, intra urban markets. Leigh is a case in point - a tram extension might be sensible.

 

[Ianno87]

Indeed. It's no way to plan a transport network.

It is, if it means that intermediate users get better journey opportunities instead of obsessing about the end to end journeys that have alternatives.

E.g. the Oldham loop has opened up access to areas like South Chadderton, so average journey times overall have reduced.

The same could be true for the likes of Dobbs Brow, Little Hulton or Pendlebury for the Atherton line.

Agreed. The dislike of the busway amongst rail enthusiasts is not reflected by its usage. It was designed to be an affordable alternative to a tram or railway line, both of which are not financially viable. I suspect Bolton - Bury falls into this category. If there is significant demand on the corridor then a Busway should be considered, especially due to breaches in the old route.

See also: Cambridgeshire Guided Busway. Most complainants have never been anywhere near it.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Leigh argument is always to reopen Kenyon Junction, but that's almost exactly as far south of the town as Atherton is north.

One of these multitude of government small studies is redoubling the heavy rail line between Altrincham and Navigation Road, not sure how practical that would be but hugely expensive unless they propose tram-training the section and having trams and trains share the tracks rather than operating separate single track sections.

ELR have indicated they would be broadly supportive of the commuter proposal this time around after opposing it last time as this time rather than a complete takeover of their alignment in the mornings and evenings and electrification it would be battery trams operating single track while ELR continued alongside on another track and having another national rail network connection would also potentially increase their revenue from offering storage and leasing activities to the national network. Having seen an ELR cab video though that would be an awful lot of structures requiring alteration and large sections of the ELR track if not nearly all would have to be re-laid.

On Bolton and Atherton we will still have to see what comes out of the Manchester North West Quadrant Highways study which found that more light rail was needed in the area to deal with road congestion as they couldnt simply build their way out of the congestion using roads alone. Consultation on the road elements was due in summer this year which should include some details of the other modelling.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The bus way doesn't strike me as being particularly quick. The train takes around half an hour from Victoria to Atherton whereas the equivalent from Oxford Road seems to take twice as long.

Two questions to answer here:-

1)...How much extra time will it take for an Atherton to Victoria rail passenger having already spent the half-hour rail part of the journey to then travel from Victoria station to the Oxford Road area that you refer to above, allowing for the time to disembark from the rail platforms 4-6 and spend time for a bus connection from a stance where such bus services to Oxford Road are available, noting such times need adding to the rail part of the journey? Atherton railway station as most area rail travellers will so attest is nowhere near to Atherton town centre.

2)...How long do you think it takes the service V1 from Leigh bus station to Salford Crescent railway station, where many of the Salford University students disembark?