Metrolink coming to Bolton (?) - Shapps

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wouldn't even assume it will be called Metrolink anyway - I can see it becoming "Bee Train", "Bee Bus" and "Bee Tram", given that they are talking of it being "the Bee Network".

Those of a more mature age will remember the early 1960s group "Bee Bumble and the Stingers"....

 

[Peter Lanky]

I wouldn't even assume it will be called Metrolink anyway - I can see it becoming "Bee Train", "Bee Bus" and "Bee Tram", given that they are talking of it being "the Bee Network".

That's not a bad idea. Metrolink is such a dull generic name.

Those of a more mature age will remember the early 1960s group "Bee Bumble and the Stingers"....

You've just inspired me to have a quick listen to Nut Rocker. I used to have a C90 cassette with a 60s compilation in my first cat in the late 70s. When it finished I always expect 'If Paradise is Half as Nice by Amen Corner to come on next as this was next on the tape.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wouldn't even assume it will be called Metrolink anyway - I can see it becoming "Bee Train", "Bee Bus" and "Bee Tram", given that they are talking of it being "the Bee Network".

Is that a criticism of what was once viewed as "modernistic" those many years ago when the tramway was launched? Metrolink is a good play on the two words "metro" and "link". In the words of a famous advert..."It does exactly what it says on the tin"....linking parts of a metro area.

"Bee Train, Bee Bus and Bee Tram" have connotations to the TV programme "cbeebies" that is aimed at a specific age group.

 

[Wtloild]

Further Metrolink expansion is only worthwhile to serve key traffic generators. The centres of the ring of towns surrounding Manchester are now so rundown and degraded that it is no longer worth establishing rail/tram links between them primarily for the purpose of serving these town centres. IMO, it would be better concentrating on converting other heavy rail suburban/local routes in to central Manchester to Metrolink, e.g. the ex-GC lines SE from Piccadilly and the Atherton line. That would provide Metrolink services in the 3 boroughs (Stockport/Bolton/Wigan) not currently served by it.

Anyone with experience of the rush-hour M60 can vouch for the fact that there is significant traffic around Greater Manchester, not just into the city centre - & transport strategies (admittedly pre-covid) stress that M60 capacity is reaching it's limit.
I appreciate some of the town centres are a bit stale, but is that not partly a consequence of the current spoked transport layout?
Demand for town centre to town centre traffic might not be huge, but demand from GM towns to Salford Quays, Trafford Park & the Airport definitely is there.

 

[daodao]

Anyone with experience of the rush-hour M60 can vouch for the fact that there is significant traffic around Greater Manchester, not just into the city centre - & transport strategies (admittedly pre-covid) stress that M60 capacity is reaching it's limit.
I appreciate some of the town centres are a bit stale, but is that not partly a consequence of the current spoked transport layout?
Demand for town centre to town centre traffic might not be huge, but demand from GM towns to Salford Quays, Trafford Park & the Airport definitely is there.

Salford Quays, the Trafford Centre and the Airport are already served by Metrolink. Demand from Greater Manchester towns to these places exists, but is too limited to warrant additional Metrolink services to them. For example, the bus service from nearby Altrincham to the Airport, which is currently hourly, is no longer commercially viable and requires a subsidy. There are already adequate bus services from Stockport to the Airport. Most other traffic from GM towns to these key destinations can be routed via Manchester city centre or Cornbrook tram stop, or using through buses in some other instances. e.g. route 247 from Altrincham to the Trafford Centre.

 

[Wtloild]

Salford Quays, the Trafford Centre and the Airport are already served by Metrolink. Demand from Greater Manchester towns to these places exists, but is too limited to warrant additional Metrolink services to them.

Bolton to the Quays is only served by two means:
a) A very congested stretch of the M60
b) Via central Manchester's congested & unreliable trains/trams
Also, a Bolton-Quays link wouldn't just serve Bolton, it'd make Bolton an interchange for people attempting to reach the Quays from the wider Bolton corridor - e.g. Kirby, Southport, Wigan, Chorley, Leyland, Preston - potentially reducing traffic on the very congested M61/M60/A580 junction.
I do appreciate the point that there isn't really the demand for a complete spider-web of inter-town connections, but there are some significant pinch-points in the road/rail network that some non-Manchester links could address.

 

[Ianno87]

Bolton to the Quays is only served by two means:
a) A very congested stretch of the M60
b) Via central Manchester's congested & unreliable trains/trams
Also, a Bolton-Quays link wouldn't just serve Bolton, it'd make Bolton an interchange for people attempting to reach the Quays from the wider Bolton corridor - e.g. Kirby, Southport, Wigan, Chorley, Leyland, Preston - potentially reducing traffic on the very congested M61/M60/A580 junction.
I do appreciate the point that there isn't really the demand for a complete spider-web of inter-town connections, but there are some significant pinch-points in the road/rail network that some non-Manchester links could address.

C) Train to Salford Crescent than the 50 bus.

I would be interested to see the modal share for passengers making that journey, however. I suspect the M60 is the clear winner.

 

[Peter Lanky]

Surely the clear winner would be to NOT have thousands of people making the journey into Manchester or Salford Quays. It's not as though people are going to a prestigious manufacturing site to make bespoke products, but most are going to be sat at a desk pressing buttons or talking to people on the phone, all of which could be done in their home town if these planners stopped tying to make Manchester into mini-London.

In which case the current infrastructure would do fine and we can concentrate on improving the quality of what is already there instead, starting with the complete electrification of the local rail system, and improving stations. Maybe even one day, some bright spark could come up with the idea that railways could be used for leisure rather than a commuting tool.

 

[Ianno87]

Surely the clear winner would be to NOT have thousands of people making the journey into Manchester or Salford Quays. It's not as though people are going to a prestigious manufacturing site to make bespoke products, but most are going to be sat at a desk pressing buttons or talking to people on the phone, all of which could be done in their home town if these planners stopped tying to make Manchester into mini-London.

Do you understand what office-based work actually involves?

 

[Peter Lanky]

Do you understand what office-based work actually involves?

Having done it for 22 years, I would say 'yes'. I do know I could have done the same job just as well from my home town, and probably been in a better mood had I not had to spend 45 minutes driving there (no public transport) on a clogged up M6.

 

[Ianno87]

Having done it for 22 years, I would say 'yes'. I do know I could have done the same job just as well from my home town, and probably been in a better mood had I not had to spend 45 minutes driving there (no public transport) on a clogged up M6.

But that's just your job. Not every office job.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Surely the clear winner would be to NOT have thousands of people making the journey into Manchester or Salford Quays. It's not as though people are going to a prestigious manufacturing site to make bespoke products, but most are going to be sat at a desk pressing buttons or talking to people on the phone, all of which could be done in their home town if these planners stopped tying to make Manchester into mini-London.

I was passing through inner-city Manchester yesterday on a tram-replacement bus service and was astounded at the absolute plethora of tall blocks of private-owner flats that we passed. The population of central Manchester must be quite considerable these days.

 

[Mathew S]

But that's just your job. Not every office job.

To be fair, if the last year's proved anything it's that almost all office jobs can be done remotely.

 

[Ianno87]

To be fair, if the last year's proved anything it's that almost all office jobs can be done remotely.

Depends what you mean by “done”. I “can“ do my job remotely, but less effectively/efficiently in some respects, and with a reduction in job satisfaction (through a Teams call is not the same nor always efficient or creative)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Depends what you mean by “done”. I “can“ do my job remotely, but less effectively/efficiently in some respects, and with a reduction in job satisfaction (through a Teams call is not the same nor always efficient or creative)

If you work from home, does that absolve you from being called into the manager's office for the dreaded one-to-one....

Can we now end this discussion on working practices and return to the matter of what the thread is about, before our ever-vigilant moderators have the proverbial "steam coming out of their ears".

Beatitude for the day.....Blessed are those who stay on topic, for they shall sit at the right hand of the RailUK Forums administrators in the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[30907]

Beatitude for the day.....Blessed are those who stay on topic, for they shall sit at the right hand of the RailUK Forums administrators in the Kingdom of Heaven.

or ...in the Age (of the Train) to Come.
(Readers with long-ish memories and a bit of Jewish or Christian theology will understand).

 

[domcoop7]

Actually I think the home working issue is quite relevant to the topic.

@Peter Lanky has it right.

GM Strategy documents for a long time have called Manchester City Centre "the Regional Centre" and used a plethora of disparaging names for the Town centres surrounding it, such as "District Services Hub" (which is one phrase I saw recently in, I think it was the GM Spatial Plan). It is a political decision to treat the whole of Greater Manchester in the same way they'd treat a small town somewhere, in the way that Bath and North East Somerset Council would plan for Bath being "it" and throw the odd GP surgery and petrol station to the outlying villages. Even calling it the "Bee" network, after a symbol of the City of Manchester itself (and of no relevance to e.g. Rochdale or Altrincham) reflects that.

So bringing Metrolink to Bolton (or Wigan or Leigh or Stockport) is self-evidently a manifestation of a political plan to concentrate resources in the City Centre. Take that away, and you're left with a solution looking for a problem.

Metrolink mark 1 was, as is well known, the plan "b" (or perhaps "c" or "d") for the cancellation of the Picc-Vic tunnel. Ashton, Salford Quays and the Airport extension (to a point) allowed new corridors improved public transport links. Trafford Centre I presume is the same, but I've no idea how well used it is (or will be). Rochdale / Oldham I'm not sure what benefit is achieved that justifies the expense.

But forcing Metrolink to other areas "just because" is ludicrous in my view. Why should Metrolink go to Stockport? Who is going to use the service, and what for, given the multitude of buses and trains (some that take as little as *eight* minutes!) that already exist?

Ditto Bolton.

Double ditto Wigan / Atherton.

Every penny that would be spent on a Bolton Metrolink extension could be more usefully used providing connectivity elsewhere.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Rochdale / Oldham I'm not sure what benefit is achieved that justifies the expense.

The Manchester Metrolink line to Oldham and Rochdale is a replacement for the heavy rail Oldham loop line and enters the town centre cores of both towns,

 

[Ianno87]

The Manchester Metrolink line to Oldham and Rochdale is a replacement for the heavy rail Oldham loop line and enters the town centre cores of both towns,

I wager that, pre-Covid, Metrolink passenger numbers on the Oldham Loop far exceeded what Heavy Rail achieved.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wager that, pre-Covid, Metrolink passenger numbers on the Oldham Loop far exceeded what Heavy Rail achieved.

Unfortunately, also a reputation for anti-social behaviour in sections of that line.

On the other hand, the line from Shaw to Rochdale was made double, as it was in the "good old days" before "cost rationalisation saw that section singled.

 

[daodao]

But forcing Metrolink to other areas "just because" is ludicrous in my view. Why should Metrolink go to Stockport? Who is going to use the service, and what for, given the multitude of buses and trains (some that take as little as *eight* minutes!) that already exist?

Ditto Bolton.

Double ditto Wigan / Atherton.

Every penny that would be spent on a Bolton Metrolink extension could be more usefully used providing connectivity elsewhere.

The political issue is that the boroughs of Bolton, Wigan and Stockport are funding Metrolink but getting no benefit from it.

Conversion of the Marple Rose Hill and Atherton lines to Metrolink would be worthwhile by itself and would provide Metrolink services to all 3 boroughs, although Bolton and Stockport town centres would not be served (and they don't need Metrolink because of good fast heavy rail services). This would solve the political issue, and also be worthwhile developments, thus killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

On the other hand, the line from Shaw to Rochdale was made double, as it was in the "good old days" before "cost rationalisation saw that section singled.

Only part of it, to just north of the Kingsway stop.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The political issue is that the boroughs of Bolton, Wigan and Stockport are funding Metrolink but getting no benefit from it.

Conversion of the Marple Rose Hill and Atherton lines to Metrolink would be worthwhile by itself and would provide Metrolink services to all 3 boroughs, although Bolton and Stockport town centres would not be served (and they don't need Metrolink because of good fast heavy rail services). This would solve the political issue, and also be worthwhile developments, this killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

Both Bolton and Stockport already have many bus services from their town centre bus stations (Stockport is next in line for a new-style bus station) to a wide range of destinations.

Wigan North Western is a station on the West Coast Main Line with long-distance and local services and Wigan Wallgate has services to both Kirkby and Southport and to Manchester on two lines via Daisy Hill and Walkden and via Westhoughton (and Bolton)

 

[Ianno87]

Only part of it, to just north of the Kingsway stop.

No, it's double all the way to (and including) Newbold stop, with single line line from there to Rochdale Railway Station (just for the NR viaduct and then limited space alongside NR tracks) - about a kilometre or so of single line.

The political issue is that the boroughs of Bolton, Wigan and Stockport are funding Metrolink but getting no benefit from it.

But some schemes (e.g. the excellent new Bolton bus station) were delivered as "compensation" for not getting Metrolink.

 

[domcoop7]

The political issue is that the boroughs of Bolton, Wigan and Stockport are funding Metrolink but getting no benefit from it.

Conversion of the Marple Rose Hill and Atherton lines to Metrolink would be worthwhile by itself and would provide Metrolink services to all 3 boroughs, although Bolton and Stockport town centres would not be served (and they don't need Metrolink because of good fast heavy rail services). This would solve the political issue, and also be worthwhile developments, thus killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

Well if we're funding Metrolink and not getting any benefit from it, that's because the GM Powers that be choose it to be so. They could provide equivalent funding for projects in Stockport, Bolton and Wigan if they wished. That's not a reason to contrive a Metrolink service that happens to run through the periphery of a borough council boundary (e.g. Daisy Hill, which is nowhere near around 90% of Bolton's Council Tax payers).

But why are they worthwhile developments?

It's a solution looking for a problem. So I can sit on a tram for an hour and a half from Wallgate to Media City? Or perhaps an hour from Bolton to Eastlands? And lose the train service to boot!

 

[daodao]

Well if we're funding Metrolink and not getting any benefit from it, that's because the GM Powers that be choose it to be so. They could provide equivalent funding for projects in Stockport, Bolton and Wigan if they wished. That's not a reason to contrive a Metrolink service that happens to run through the periphery of a borough council boundary (e.g. Daisy Hill, which is nowhere near around 90% of Bolton's Council Tax payers).

But why are they worthwhile developments?

It's a solution looking for a problem. So I can sit on a tram for an hour and a half from Wallgate to Media City? Or perhaps an hour from Bolton to Eastlands? And lose the train service to boot!

Conversion of heavy rail suburban services to light rail reduces costs, facilitates frequency increases and leads to greater patronage. Wigan would still have a fast heavy rail service to Manchester via Bolton.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Conversion of heavy rail suburban services to light rail reduces costs, facilitates frequency increases and leads to greater patronage. Wigan would still have a fast heavy rail service to Manchester via Bolton.

Noting what you say above, would both the Kirkby and the Southport services to Manchester that currently pass through Wigan Wallgate then be diverted to run through Westhoughton to Manchester? Unless you intend tram-train operation for those two services, you will have a problem from Wigan Wallgate to the diverging junction at Crow Nest Junction where heavy rail and light rail cannot run together or do you intend that both the Kirkby and the Southport services be truncated at Wigan Wallgate station. I suppose you have seen the current seating arrangement on the Manchester Metrolink trams which would be expected to cater for passengers breaking their journey at Wigan Wallgate.

What plans do you have for a tram and heavy rail exchange station at Wigan Wallgate?

 

[daodao]

Noting what you say above, would both the Kirkby and the Southport services to Manchester that currently pass through Wigan Wallgate then be diverted to run through Westhoughton to Manchester? Unless you intend tram-train operation for those two services, you will have a problem from Wigan Wallgate to the diverging junction at Crow Nest Junction where heavy rail and light rail cannot run together or do you intend that both the Kirkby and the Southport services be truncated at Wigan Wallgate station. I suppose you have seen the current seating arrangement on the Manchester Metrolink trams which would be expected to cater for passengers breaking their journey at Wigan Wallgate.

What plans do you have for a tram and heavy rail exchange station at Wigan Wallgate?

I would run the Southport services fast from Wallgate calling only at Bolton, Salford Crescent and M/c Victoria. There would be a stopping service from Wigan as well via Bolton, with some of these trains originating at Kirkby (or preferably Skelmersdale).

I would envisage the Metrolink service running on street from central M/c near St Peter's Square to Salford before joining the Atherton line, with half the service diverting at Walkden and then running via the current busway (replacing the buses) to Leigh, and the other half of the service running via Atherton, but separately from heavy rail between Hindley and Wigan if tram-trains were not used.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would run the Southport services fast from Wallgate calling only at Bolton, Salford Crescent and M/c Victoria. There would be a stopping service from Wigan as well via Bolton, with some of these trains originating at Kirkby (or preferably Skelmersdale).

I would envisage the Metrolink service running on street from central M/c near St Peter's Square to Salford before joining the Atherton line, with half the service diverting at Walkden and then running via the current busway (replacing the buses) to Leigh, and the other half of the service running via Atherton, but separately from heavy rail between Hindley and Wigan if tram-trains were not used.

If I understand your reasoning, you propose a similar situation between Hindley and Wigan Wallgate as currently exists between Navigation Road and Altrincham, where light rail uses one line and heavy rail uses the other line, if tram trains are not used. With tram operation, noting that only one tram can utilise that single line between those two stations at any one time, how will that affect the tram frequency?

Will the heavy rail single line frequency between Hindley and Wigan Wallgate that you propose affect the timetabling of both the Kirkby/Skelmersdale and Southport services that will all pass via Westhoughton and Bolton.

 

[daodao]

If I understand your reasoning, you propose a similar situation between Hindley and Wigan Wallgate as currently exists between Navigation Road and Altrincham, where light rail uses one line and heavy rail uses the other line, if tram trains are not used.

That arrangement only works for short distances, or where the formation was originally 4-tracked. The latter does exist for much of the line between Wigan and Manchester via Atherton. The heavy rail track between Wigan and Bolton probably needs to remain double track for most of its length, so it may be necessary for a tram (as distinct from tram-train) service to use a completely or partially separate route between Hindley and Wigan. I am not familiar with the local geography to postulate what might be feasible.

 

[domcoop7]

As is obvious from the above, I don't agree with these proposals.

But if they were to go ahead, the tram should start at Skelmersdale, run through to the Saddle road junction in Wigan on the existing trackbed, go to on street to provide access to the retail park stadium, Wigan Pier and industrial area, through the Town Centre and then rejoin the other side.

At this point it would be a single line for tram and a single line for train from around Ince to the A577 (approx 1km). The tram would go on street again for Hindley (whose station is far from the Town Centre) and follow the A58 to re-join the Atherton line, after the Westhoughton route has diverged. Not only would that reduce to only 1km the sharing of the p-way between tram and train, but it would also allow the tram to open up connectivity to Wigan for local areas.