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Metrolink coming to Stockport (?) - Shapps

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Xenophon PCDGS

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I think a separate thread to the Bolton one is needed, which will allow discussions to take place.

One thought being the proposed new Stockport bus station and a Metrolink connection to it, similar to what occurs in Ashton-under-Lyne.
 
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Richard P

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I think like the potential Bolton solution there'll be a need to explore the old track beds and potentially utilise those - obvious thought is to branch off the East Didsbury/Manchester Airport line near St Werburgs Road if that is feasible - what definitely is not is to run straight down the middle of Stockport Road or similar - far too much road traffic. Interestingly both ends of the Eccles to Ashton line run on main roads and are regularly delayed by road traffic congestion - my understanding is that despite it obviously costing a lot of extra money any extensions will avoid using the middle of main roads. Ironically however the new line to/from the Trafford Centre will cross the main road three times in 100 yards once up and running at Parkway which is bound to cause delays - it was decided going under or over the road was too expensive!
 

Kite159

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Would make sense to extend the East Didsbury branch, maybe going via Heaton Mersey before running alongside/on the A5145, swinging via the town centre to terminate in the bus station area.

*puts away crayons*
 

WatcherZero

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Unlike any mythical Bolton town centre link there are already pretty developed plans for Stockport routes.
 

Ianno87

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Would make sense to extend the East Didsbury branch, maybe going via Heaton Mersey before running alongside/on the A5145, swinging via the town centre to terminate in the bus station area.

*puts away crayons*

That was always the longstanding plan from many years ago.

A previous map also implied a Tram Train service towards Hazel Grove by joining the freight line from Northenden Jn in the Heaton Mersey area.
 

edwin_m

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Is that the one that had a Midland Railway station in Hazel Grove that closed some time about 1917?
Any tram-train on that route would probably terminate before the bridge over the Buxton line, so as not to conflict with heavy rail passenger trains taking the route round the chord and via New Mills South.
 

tramfan208

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This would be a foolish decision in my view, namely because the East Didsbury line is extremely busy at present. Extending it to start back in Stockport would mean that vehicles would be turning up at East Didsbury already half full, leaving even less capacity for the stops further towards Manchester.

Even with a tram every 6 minutes, it’s going to be a tighter squeeze in the peaks of this plan gets the go ahead!

4 diagrams already use double units daily, with more planned when the next batch of new vehicles arrive. But to double up the whole service (assuming it still runs through to Rochdale), will use up approximately 30 double units once the Stockport extension is complete.

I ask the question - is this a good use of resources when Stockport has 14 trains per hour to Manchester and at least as many 192 buses per hour, both taking less time and a more direct route than any Metrolink route would?
 

Ianno87

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This would be a foolish decision in my view, namely because the East Didsbury line is extremely busy at present. Extending it to start back in Stockport would mean that vehicles would be turning up at East Didsbury already half full, leaving even less capacity for the stops further towards Manchester.

Even with a tram every 6 minutes, it’s going to be a tighter squeeze in the peaks of this plan gets the go ahead!

4 diagrams already use double units daily, with more planned when the next batch of new vehicles arrive. But to double up the whole service (assuming it still runs through to Rochdale), will use up approximately 30 double units once the Stockport extension is complete.

I ask the question - is this a good use of resources when Stockport has 14 trains per hour to Manchester and at least as many 192 buses per hour, both taking less time and a more direct route than any Metrolink route would?

I wouldn't have thought you'd get many people boarding at Stockport and riding right through to the City Centre. Though I could see flows like Stockport-Cornbrook-Salford Quays being fairly popular.

I think it'd be just as much about reverse-commuting from the Chorlton/Didsbury area to Stockport.
 

rebmcr

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I ask the question - is this a good use of resources when Stockport has 14 trains per hour to Manchester and at least as many 192 buses per hour, both taking less time and a more direct route than any Metrolink route would?

Taking those diesel 192s off the road permanently would be fantastic, yes.
 

andrewbowden

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192's usually run by diesel/electric hybrids. And yeah, who on earth would commute to Manchester that way? No, this is more about orbital connections. Allowing people to travel to Salford Quays without going through the city would be a big draw.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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192's usually run by diesel/electric hybrids. And yeah, who on earth would commute to Manchester that way? No, this is more about orbital connections. Allowing people to travel to Salford Quays without going through the city would be a big draw.

That ignores those people who make intermediate journeys such as those who travel from the Hazel Grove park and ride facility to Levenshulme. Not all journeys involve direct travel into the Manchester city core. On that 192 route outside the Stockport boundary, there are a number of bus services that travel direct into Manchester in addition to the 192 service.

Would there not need to be a change of Metrolink service at Cornbrook in order to access Salford Quays, when travelling from Stockport?
 

Greybeard33

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WatcherZero

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I ask the question - is this a good use of resources when Stockport has 14 trains per hour to Manchester and at least as many 192 buses per hour, both taking less time and a more direct route than any Metrolink route would?

Its not about direct city centre to centre routes, its about serving the places in between those who want to commute to work after a brief walk to the end of their street without having to drive into a city to catch a train back out again, giving the travel options of a comprehensive network to get not just from point A to Point B but to points B-Z.

You might as well ask whats the point of the London Underground if there are rail routes which connect the same two points faster.
 

tramfan208

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You might as well ask whats the point of the London Underground if there are rail routes which connect the same two points faster.

Yes, ok I accept what you’re saying here, and the points the others have made about Salford Quays connectivity etc. As long as the capacity concerns I mentioned in my original post are taken into account, then fair enough.
All I will say is, as a Metrolink employee myself (although I’m sure this is the same in all transport undertakings), the longer the route, and therefore the more vehicles employed thereon, the higher the likelihood of disruptions, and the more complicated it is to put it back together again when that disruption has ended.
I’m a big believer in addressing the problems we have at the moment, consolidating the network, rather than further empire building.
 

Greybeard33

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Unlike any mythical Bolton town centre link there are already pretty developed plans for Stockport routes.
In the early noughties quite well developed plans for a Metrolink extension from E Didsbury to Stockport were worked up. The route ran to Heaton Mersey along the old rail alignment, then crossed the Mersey and M60 to Gorsey Bank. It then ran along the Mersey valley to the town centre, with two more bridges over the river because of the difficult terrain. This extension was eventually dropped from the Metrolink Phase 3 programme. Partly because of the high cost, but also because of the lack of support from Stockport Council. At that time the council was obsessed by impractical ideas for restoring a heavy rail link between Stockport and Marple.

More recently, tram-train proposals for the Stockport area included a route from E Didsbury to Hazel Grove via the freight line through Cheadle Heath, with a new chord to link with Altrincham to Stockport line where these lines intersect in Adswood. Tram-trains from E Didsbury to Stockport would have left the heavy rail line at Edgeley Junction, then run on street to the west of Stockport station and down the hill to the Interchange. A long loop around compared with the direct route up the valley.

TfGM is still proposing the Stockport end of this route for future tram-trains from Stockport to Altrincham and the Airport, but the Adswood chord appears to have been dropped. It would probably have needed private housing to be CPO'd.

The wheel now appears to have turned full circle - the new announcement talks about a Metrolink (not tram-train) extension from E Didsbury to Stockport Interchange (not Stockport Station). Start of construction in 2025 seems too early for tram-train, considering that TfGM strategy is to evaluate three tram-train pilot projects before committing to anything bigger, and that Network Rail would have to be involved in a tram-train project. So it would appear that something similar to the original Mersey valley route has been resurrected. It is striking that there was no mention of Metrolink to Stockport in TfGM's Draft Delivery Plan 2020-25 (linked in post#5), which was only published a year ago. Presumably the change of heart is based on a perception that Central Government is now more willing to fund infrastructure projects in the North.

The eastern end of the proposed route is shown on plans in the consultation draft of the Stockport Town Centre West Strategic Regeneration Framework, dated July 2019: https://consultation.stockport.gov....90717_master_consultationdoc_print_lowres.pdf. See Figures 24, 27 and 28, which also show the proposed tram-train alignment south to Edgeley.

The design of the new Interchange already makes provision for Metrolink platforms and construction is about to start. From the Interchange the Metrolink alignment would initially run west along Brinksway (see pp.110-123 in the SRF document). I suspect the rest of the route is still at the stage of comparing options, given the 2:1 range of costs quoted and considering that the project is stated to be five years away from start of construction.
 

andrewbowden

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That ignores those people who make intermediate journeys such as those who travel from the Hazel Grove park and ride facility to Levenshulme. Not all journeys involve direct travel into the Manchester city core. On that 192 route outside the Stockport boundary, there are a number of bus services that travel direct into Manchester in addition to the 192 service.

I meant (and it wasn't clear I admit) who would travel Stockport to Manchester by Metrolink. 192 by bus I totally get,

Would there not need to be a change of Metrolink service at Cornbrook in order to access Salford Quays, when travelling from Stockport?

Yes, but for many, still far more convenient than other options.
 

Kite159

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I meant (and it wasn't clear I admit) who would travel Stockport to Manchester by Metrolink. 192 by bus I totally get,



Yes, but for many, still far more convenient than other options.

It will be like the tram from Manchester Airport, hardly anybody will travel all the way to Manchester city centre due to the extra time. Likewise at Rochdale for anybody wanting the city centre.
 

Ianno87

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Yes, but for many, still far more convenient than other options.

My impression is that the Metrolink is becoming like the tube - provided the frequency is there, passengers don't mind changing.

In the case of Cornbrook, dead easy across the platform.

It is truly a 'network' now.
 

jfollows

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What would be the average Metrolink journey time of Stockport - Cornbrook (change) - Salford Quays?
Assuming it's comparable to the time inbound from Manchester Airport, which is 45 minutes Airport-Cornbrook, I'd guess an average time of one hour for Stockport to Salford Quays.

I used the Airport route from Wilmslow to Sale once, admittedly because I wanted to travel on it for the first time. It'll probably be the last time also, it took a long time. I'll go back to travelling by "heavy rail" via Manchester. But, as others have said, Metrolink is going to be appealing to (a not insignificant number of) people who prefer the ease of the simple change at, say, Cornbrook versus having to navigate Manchester Piccadilly. Of course, Deansgate is a good connection point but has a limited rail service.
 
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