Metrolink Second City Crossing

Discussion in 'Other Public Transport' started by Paul Sidorczuk, 2 Jun 2015.

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  1. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    With all the Manchester Metrolink works scheduled on the new 2CC line on Cross Street and then when the trams are running on that road, where would the cars, etc, that currently use Deansgate go if they were banned from there?
     
  2. keith1879

    keith1879 Member

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    "With all the Manchester Metrolink works scheduled on the new 2CC line on Cross Street and then when the trams are running on that road, where would the cars, etc, that currently use Deansgate go if they were banned from there? " Round the ring road or in car parks - the traffic moves so slowly (even without the 2cc works) that I doubt if an hours worth of car traffic in Deansgate really moves that many people. I suppose there's a reason for keeping it open to cars but it really delays the bus.
     
  3. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    At one time, both Cross Street and Deansgate were major through traffic routes in and out of Manchester. Cross Street is now scheduled to be the recipiant of the 2CC Metrolink line and in parts, Deansgate has been deliberately narrowed in parts. I well remember what both roads were like in the early 1950's.

    All that we can hope for is that there will be some inner-city road masterplan to come to future fruition, but at this moment in time, matters are shall we be kind nds say "less than perfect"

    On a slightly different location, but still what was once a major road, what exactly is (or has) been the master plan for the road that passes the front of the Salford Roman Catholic cathedral.
     
    Last edited: 3 Jun 2015
  4. Philip C

    Philip C Member

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    Deansgate was noted for its trams as many Salford Corporation routes entered central Manchester over one of the Irwell bridges, passed along Deansgate for a distance and then returned to their home city over another bridge. In addition there were Manchester Corporation routes running the length of Deansgate headed for Trafford Bar and beyond. I'm sure that I've seen early moving images of the relentless traffic in trams and horse-drawn drays. Perhaps this image will give a flavour?

    PS. Click on the image to make it larger

    http://images.manchester.gov.uk/Dis...c48eb2ea5da4c3&_ga=GA1.3.736992802.1424104195
     
    Last edited: 4 Jun 2015
  5. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    I sincerely hope there isn't an "inner city road masterplan". Increasing road capacity in the city centre would just attract more people to use cars, worsening congestion on the unimproved roads and leading to pressure to improve them too. That is the thinking of the 60s and look where it got us (see Birmingham, Newcastle or the Pathetic Motorways website).
     
  6. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    What many people tend to forget that all the large shops and the major shopping complexes in Manchester City centre still have to have all their retail goods delivered into them. "Avoiding ring roads" do absolutely nothing to resolve that specific matter.

    Or would it be seen as preferable to revert to the idea of outer-areas soulless large retail houses of Mammon for such retail trade establishments, despite the current move to revert such a process and to make the city centre the shopping hub that it once was.
     
  7. muddythefish

    muddythefish Established Member

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    All very laudable but not going to be resolved by an "inner city ring road". London is far more congested but manages to get goods delivered to shops, so why can't Manchester ? Goods can always be delivered at night anyway.
     
  8. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    The Mancunian Way, built to be used with connectional links, quite some time ago on an elevated level could be regarded as part of such a road system, could it not?
     
  9. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    Back on the thread subject of the 2CC line, TfGM have stated that their contractor, MPT, is now due to start works on the Cross Street area between John Dalton Street and King Street on 6th July for a period of approximately six months.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jul 2015
  10. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    Eh? There is already an inner city ring road in the form of Great Ancoats Street, Mancunian Way and Trinity Way. Trinity Way is relatively new and effectively replaces Deansgate for through traffic. If you want to talk about severed inner city roads, better to look at Birmingham.
     
  11. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    Keeping delivery access to shops is one of the main elements of urban road planning, particularly when trams are involved. There were lots of issues on Union Street in Oldham for example, where many of the shops only have access from the front.

    One method is provide access into and out of various parts of the centre from an inner ring road, but ensure by blocking roads and imposing traffic restrictions that they can't be used to shortcut across the centre. The almost complete blockage of Deansgate in the Cathedral/Victoria area is probably an example of this, and means that the traffic on Deansgate today probably can't be reduced further without damaging access to local businesses.
     
  12. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    Let's face it - Newcastle got its city centre pedestrianised pretty early and an underground light railway (i.e. the Metro). Newcastle is better for having its LRVs under the ground and segregated from pedestrians, unlike Manchester.
     
  13. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    Not really comparable. The gradients in Newcastle would have made it very difficult to have street running in the centre and also to cross the Tyne.

    Also I'd say the case for underground versus street running isn't made. Street running is slower, but this doesn't matter if it's in an area that most people are travelling to and from and can access more quickly from street-level stops. Street running makes it more likely that pedestrians will be hit by vehicles, but there are plenty of Continental cities where trams have been put underground and the stations have a definite perception of poor security and risk of assault. Fortunately Newcastle doesn't really suffer from this, at least at the central area underground stations.

    All too often the putting of trams underground in the 60s and 70s was about giving priority to cars not pedestrians.
     
  14. Altfish

    Altfish Member

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    Personally I much prefer street running, any loss of speed is more than made up by the speed at which pedestrians can access the platforms. I also think trams are an attractive part of the street scene.
    There is nothing wrong with underground systems but to assert that u/g is better than street running is not based on fact.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    On the subject of Deansgate and other inner city centre streets, I believe Manchester is deliberately making it less attractive for motor traffic - a process I approve of. Deliveries can always get in, be it out of hours or down service roads.
    I drive to Manchester most days (I need my car to visit sites) but not to the shopping/business areas, I stay away from them.
     
  15. familyguy99

    familyguy99 Member

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    I see first gauge testing to Exchange Square stop will take place early hours on Sunday morning.

    http://www.metrolink.co.uk/pages/news.aspx?newsID=234

    And if you don't know line to Exchange Square is due to open sometime in December 2015.
     
    Last edited: 30 Oct 2015
  16. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    When the trams begin to run to the Exchange Square new stop, will matters be similar to what occurred at Droylsden, when the East Manchester Line was partly opened?
     
  17. Altfish

    Altfish Member

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    I don't think so Paul, isn't the Shaw to Exchange Sq. service going to be permanent? Even when the rest of 2CC is complete.
     
    Last edited: 30 Oct 2015
  18. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    Yes, that's why they built a terminating platform at Shaw and Crompton. Trams can't go to Rochdale more frequently than every 12 minutes because of the lengthy single track section.
     
  19. 507 001

    507 001 Member

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    No, It'll be Shaw to East Didsbury via 2CC.
     
  20. familyguy99

    familyguy99 Member

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    Took some picture along 2CC route today and here link to see them.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/albums/72157651543861307

    As for Shaw to Exchange Square service I pretty sure that TFGM paper confirm that service will only run in Morning and evening peak times once service start running so given six mins service on Oldham line at peak times, not too sure if Metrolink will do this but if they do then we may only see Exchange Square opened at peak times and no tram be running to that stop at off-peak times.
     
    Last edited: 31 Oct 2015
  21. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    But considering that Exchange Square is the only stop on the 2CC line and the fact that its location is ideal for many city centre shops, it seems somewhat strange to have a prime location stop only used only at peak periods, as the associated costs in constructing this particular stop would be quite considerable.
     
    Last edited: 1 Nov 2015
  22. Altfish

    Altfish Member

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    But...the Manchester Airport trams are being extended over the 2CC to Victoria, so they'll be using Exchange Square.
     
  23. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    I assumed he was talking about the short term, the immediate period after Exchange Quay opening. Obviously once the whole line is open, it will be served all day. The primary reason for the new line is to relieve the existing route via Market Street.
     
  24. snowball

    snowball Established Member

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  25. familyguy99

    familyguy99 Member

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    Manchester Evening news have got story on there website about first tram running on 2CC line with few extra picture on there.

    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...anchester-trams-exchange-square-test-10367982

    Yeah sorry I meant for couple of months for Morning and evening peak time service to Exchange Square, here what TFGM paper said about Exchange Square service back in September.

    As is been mention over on Skyscrapercity website that Morning and evening peak service may only be for couple of months before Shaw to Exchange Square is running 7am to 8pm on Monday to Saturday. (9am to 6pm on Saturday)
     
    Last edited: 3 Nov 2015
  26. familyguy99

    familyguy99 Member

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    Exchange Square will be opening on Sunday 6th December and tram service to Exchange Square will run between

    Shaw to Exchange Square - 7am to 8pm on Monday to Friday
    Shaw to Exchange Square - 9am to 6am on Saturday's
    Rochdale to Exchange Square - 9am to 5.30pm on Sunday's

    http://www.tfgm.com/Corporate/media_centre/Pages/News.aspx?articleId=845

    Full lists of first/last tram times from 6th December.

    http://www.metrolink.co.uk/Documents/15-1119 Met times+frequency A3 Nov 2015.pdf
     
    Last edited: 30 Nov 2015
  27. Altfish

    Altfish Member

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  28. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    I know that the track is single track only over the bridge over Milnrow Road in Rochdale, but I was not aware that could be described as a "lengthy single track section"
     
  29. radamfi

    radamfi Established Member

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    The single track continues after the bridge over Milnrow Road alongside the mainline tracks and only becomes two tracks again once the line goes onto High Level Road. Whether that is "lengthy" is of course a subjective opinion. I have to admit, it doesn't seem much longer than what you have at Newton Heath and Moston, yet that can accommodate a stop and a tram every 6 minutes each way.

    I've just measured the Newbold to Rochdale single track section in Google Maps and it appears to be about 1 km long, and the one at Newton Heath and Moston is about 900 m.
     
    Last edited: 6 Dec 2015
  30. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    The single line on the final approach to Rochdale terminus may cause some capacity issues as well. Although fairly short it includes a complicated road junction and a very slow curve.
     
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