Metropolitan Line Extension (MLX/Croxley Rail Link)

[MikeWh]

You understand incorrectly. It was initially a temporary measure but the current legislation is quite permanent and has been for well over a hundred years.

This link: http://www.parliament.uk/about/livi...te-lives/taxation/overview/incometaxbolished/ suggests that the tax may well still be temporary, but the likelihood of it ever being withdrawn is as close to zero as can be reached without stating it as permanent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And this is why localism in areas as small as the UK is stupid.

Or more why Watford should become part of the Greater London area, perhaps? There is a bit of a natural boundary north of it.

Similarly, West Lancashire at least as far as Ormskirk would make sense as part of "Merseyside" - it's political reasons that prevent it.

 

[Barn]

You understand incorrectly. It was initially a temporary measure but the current legislation is quite permanent and has been for well over a hundred years.

Not quite right. See section 4 of the Income Tax Act 2007: "Income tax is charged for a year only if an Act so provides".

The Finance Act for each year (i.e. the Act implementing the budget) imposes income tax for that year only.

The permanent legislation sets out the framework for calculating and collecting income tax but the charge itself is annual.

 

[Deerfold]

Not quite right. See section 4 of the Income Tax Act 2007: "Income tax is charged for a year only if an Act so provides".

The Finance Act for each year (i.e. the Act implementing the budget) imposes income tax for that year only.

The permanent legislation sets out the framework for calculating and collecting income tax but the charge itself is annual.

Thank you for correcting me. I'd missed that.I wonder how long it'll be before we don't have it...

Apologies to Busaholic.

 

[LeeLivery]

Or more why Watford should become part of the Greater London area, perhaps? There is a bit of a natural boundary north of it.

Similarly, West Lancashire at least as far as Ormskirk would make sense as part of "Merseyside" - it's political reasons that prevent it.

I'd argue the same for Elmbridge, Spelthorne, Epsom & Ewell, Dartford and Loughton. I feel that the Greater London 1965 borders needs some serious reviewing.

 

[Busaholic]

Thank you for correcting me. I'd missed that.I wonder how long it'll be before we don't have it...

Apologies to Busaholic.

That's okay, mate. I had been considering whether to try and contact my old history teacher who'd imparted it to me, but as I've had no contact since 1967, and he was about 40 then, it might have proved difficult.

 

[swt_passenger]

This week's article in Construction News quotes someone as saying it (Croxley extension) will still be completed, but by 2020:

TfL said this week that it was still aiming for the line to be finished by 2020.

London Underground director of strategy and service development David Hughes said: “Since taking over the Metropolitan line extension in November 2015, we have undertaken substantial design development and enabling work, which is due to complete in spring next year.

“We continue to work with Hertfordshire County Council and the DfT to ensure the affordability of the project. There’s a growth fund in the [TfL] business plan for transport projects which will unlock growth and regeneration.

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/...be-extension-over-cost-fears/10016132.article

 

[Busaholic]

This week's article in Construction News quotes someone as saying it (Croxley extension) will still be completed, but by 2020:

I'd call that, in sporting terms, as 'kicking into the long grass'.

 

[tripleseis]

2020 isn't really that far away when you think about it.

 

[kwrail]

I'd call that, in sporting terms, as 'kicking into the long grass'.

Not really. It was always planned for late 2019 / early 2020. Hopefully they are just reassessing the costs and getting back into the available budget.

 

[davetheguard]

Not really. It was always planned for late 2019 / early 2020. Hopefully they are just reassessing the costs and getting back into the available budget.

If it happens in 2020, that will be acceptable, a cancellation of this worthwhile scheme would not be.

How long has this project already been going on for? Two decades???! And with absolutely nothing to show for all that effort in time and money, apart from a bit of vegetation clearance and a vast amount of plans. There is something very, very, wrong the way infrastructure is funded and delivered in this county.

 

[RT4038]

Perhaps the delay reflects how 'worthwhile' the scheme is viewed? Surely there must be more useful infrastructure improvements to spend this money on, elsewhere in the London area, which would benefit far more people? Somewhere south of the river?
Having Met trains going to Watford Junction would tidy up the map, and provide interconnection, but I can't think of any journey that I might make use of it, and I live further up the LNW line with frequent direct trains to Watford Junction!

 

[Busaholic]

Perhaps the delay reflects how 'worthwhile' the scheme is viewed? Surely there must be more useful infrastructure improvements to spend this money on, elsewhere in the London area, which would benefit far more people? Somewhere south of the river?

You could almost get a map of South London and stick a pin in anywhere at random to find an area that would benefit more. Why TfL are so obsessed with benefiting a small area of Hertfordshire I can't imagine.

 

[Nym]

Because they insisted on taking control of an HCC project?

One can also point out, that South London has an extensive, and reasonably well organised network of Southern Region railways.

 

[RT4038]

Because they insisted on taking control of an HCC project?

One can also point out, that South London has an extensive, and reasonably well organised network of Southern Region railways.

With lots of overcrowding and punctuality problems, crying out for investment in infrastructure.
I really can't see the point of this Watford scheme being a priority, where all it allows for is interchange between two lines which run parallel to each other, all of the stations within walking distance or a short bus ride of each other in an urban area.

 

[Nym]

With lots of overcrowding and punctuality problems, crying out for investment in infrastructure.
I really can't see the point of this Watford scheme being a priority, where all it allows for is interchange between two lines which run parallel to each other, all of the stations within walking distance or a short bus ride of each other in an urban area.

So, Thameslink 2000?

You could do a lot better with the existing infrastructure if you binned all the crossing movements at key junctions, but all ye of the Southern Region must have their services to Cannon St, and Charring X...

 

[Ze Random One]

With lots of overcrowding and punctuality problems, crying out for investment in infrastructure.
I really can't see the point of this Watford scheme being a priority, where all it allows for is interchange between two lines which run parallel to each other, all of the stations within walking distance or a short bus ride of each other in an urban area.

Dense network, yes. Of trains that run every 30 minutes. This is fundamentally the issue with transport in South London. The trains are infrequent, the buses are slow and the road network is victorian.

 

[RT4038]

So, Thameslink 2000?

You could do a lot better with the existing infrastructure if you binned all the crossing movements at key junctions, but all ye of the Southern Region must have their services to Cannon St, and Charring X...

Infrastructure spending at key junctions of the Southern Region would benefit many more than Hemel Hempstead-Leighton Buzzard passengers being able to change and travel to Harrow-on-the-Hill rather than Harrow & Wealdstone. Or am I missing something?

 

[glbotu]

Infrastructure spending at key junctions of the Southern Region would benefit many more than Hemel Hempstead-Leighton Buzzard passengers being able to change and travel to Harrow-on-the-Hill rather than Harrow & Wealdstone. Or am I missing something?

The thing you've missed is that Hertfordshire County Council put money in. Additionally, the current Transport minister has decided that because the Mayor of London wears the wrong colour of tie, that TfL can't gain control of any Inner-London routes in South London, which means any infrastructure upgrades can't come from at least a part TfL pot.

 

[TheDavibob]

Picked up by the Standard:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...ould-be-axed-due-to-funding-gap-a3490276.html

The proposed Metropolitan line extension to Watford Junction could be axed or drastically delayed due to a £50 million shortfall.

In a letter to London Assembly Tories, Transport for London said the project “cannot be delivered” with the current funding package of £284.4 million.

Robert Niven, TfL’s head of line extensions, wrote that “more than £50 million will be required on top of our [TfL’s contribution of] £49 million”.

The project had a completion date of 2020. It would take Tube trains to Watford Junction and Watford High Street via Cassiobridge and Vicarage Road....

 

[PR1Berske]

From the "diamond geezer" blog

.Since the Croxley Rail Link was first proposed in 1975, a completion date has always been tantalisingly out of reach. Back in 2011 it was assumed trains would be running between Croxley and Watford Junction in May 2016. By 2013, when approval was granted, December 2016 was being mentioned. At the start of 2014, the target was suddenly December 2017, and by the end of the year the date had slipped further to May 2018. When TfL took over in 2015 the start of operational service had fallen back to May 2019, and by the end of the year merely December 2019. Last July we were told December 2020 instead, which is what the project website says today, except this latest news clearly hasn't filtered through. My money is on 2021, 2022 or 2023, or more likely never.

Source: http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/the-metropolitan-line-ex-extension.html

 

[Busaholic]

From the "diamond geezer" blog





Source: http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/the-metropolitan-line-ex-extension.html

Unless the Greater London boundary is shifted northwards in that area, 'never' seems to be favourite.

 

[PR1Berske]

Unless the Greater London boundary is shifted northwards in that area, 'never' seems to be favourite.

Suspect you're right. Think we can put this down as a project that will never happen unless there are significant political changes where it matters.

 

[kwrail]

This is so cynical of TFL. They need their share of the Metropolitan Line Extension budget for other projects, so rather than manage the project down to the budget available, they say that they need more money and kill the project altogether. Which is a real shame.

At least it will keep those living in the big houses near Cassiobury Park happy as Watford Met will stay open indefinitely. Opportunity missed.

 

[rebmcr]

This is so cynical of TFL. They need their share of the Metropolitan Line Extension budget for other projects, so rather than manage the project down to the budget available, they say that they need more money and kill the project altogether. Which is a real shame.

At least it will keep those living in the big houses near Cassiobury Park happy as Watford Met will stay open indefinitely. Opportunity missed.

Having their plans for Southeastern Overground blocked by the Grayling DfT, in addition to being handed this project and told to deal with it, probably didn't put them in a particularly cooperative mood.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is so cynical of TFL. They need their share of the Metropolitan Line Extension budget for other projects, so rather than manage the project down to the budget available, they say that they need more money and kill the project altogether.

I don't think it is TfL who are being the cynical ones.

The problem is that there are only so many corners you can cut on a project like this. And TfL don't think they can cut any more without the whole project failing. And because the Mayor has the wrong colour rosette on his suit, DafT have no intention of helping the situation, so the scheme falls over.

And nobody can really blame TfL for this. Watford is not their problem.

 

[Mag_seven]

A tiny bit of new railway and the reinstatement of some disused track and we can't even manage that. What a flippin shambles.

 

[RT4038]

But what is the point of this expenditure on a tiny bit of new railway and re-instatement? It will cost millions and adds virtually nothing to network connectivity.
I am sure the money could be spent on something capacity enhancing / reliability improving / connectivity enhancing somewhere else?

 

[Busaholic]

But what is the point of this expenditure on a tiny bit of new railway and re-instatement? It will cost millions and adds virtually nothing to network connectivity.
I am sure the money could be spent on something capacity enhancing / reliability improving / connectivity enhancing somewhere else?

Hear! Hear!

 

[yorkie]

But what is the point of this expenditure on a tiny bit of new railway and re-instatement? It will cost millions and adds virtually nothing to network connectivity.
I am sure the money could be spent on something capacity enhancing / reliability improving / connectivity enhancing somewhere else?

Your question is answered on their website; see http://www.croxleyraillink.com/media/crl_monitoring_evaluation_plan_feb2014.pdf

In line with DfT’s value for money (VfM) categorisation, the scheme represents high VfM, with a Benefit Cost Ratio (BCR) in the order of 2.5

To suggest this adds "virtually nothing to network connectivity" is absurd.

Many people want their local line to have improvements but the facts clearly demonstrate this is a worthwhile scheme.

The existing Met branch is a waste of capacity as it goes to a part of Watford not many people want to go to!