Metropolitan Line Question

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NY Yankee

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I was perusing the Tube map when I noticed that it doesn't show the Met line making any stops between Wembley Park and Finchley Road. Does the Met line operate express (skip the stations) in that section? If so, does it operate express all of the time or only during rush hour?
 
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alexjames

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Yes

All the intermediate stations are not Met stops apart from occasional use at Neasden and Willesden.
 

jopsuk

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The Met and Jubilee now use different signalling systems along that stretch, so the Met trains cannot I believe access the Jubilee line platforms. Neasden and Willesden do have platforms that Met trains can use, the others don't (much as some of the Met stations further north only have platforms on the Slow lines). this map may be of help?
 

Dstock7080

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Platforms on the Metropolitan Line tracks are only provided at: Neasden, Willesden Green. Trains rarely stop, except perhaps during engineering works in the area.
Metropolitan Line trains are unable to use the adjacent Jubilee Line tracks.
 

Barn

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There's a similar arrangement between the Piccadilly (semi-fast) and District (slow) lines between Acton Town and Earl's Court in SW London too.



 

NY Yankee

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What's the difference between fast, semi-fast, and slow? I looked at wiki, but I didn't understand the difference.
 

SS4

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What's the difference between fast, semi-fast, and slow? I looked at wiki, but I didn't understand the difference.

Roughly...

fast = few (if any) intermediate stops
semi-fast= more stops but skips some
slow = all shacks (stops everywhere)
 

Ivo

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Fast services call only at Harrow-on-the-Hill, Wembley Park and Finchley Road between Moor Park and Baker Street. Semi-fast services call additionally at local stations north of Harrow-on-the-Hill. Slow services call everywhere north of Wembley Park. Peak services sometimes omit Wembley Park.

This arrangement was valid until December. Now, most services are slow.

In addition, stations south of Wembley Park were served by the Met until 1939. In the seven years before that, the Met served Stanmore; before that, I do not know where services from Neasden would have gone. This is because the Stanmore branch only opened in 1932 (from 1939 to 1979, it was part of the Bakerloo).
 

DavyCrocket

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There's a similar arrangement between the Piccadilly (semi-fast) and District (slow) lines between Acton Town and Earl's Court in SW London too.




The term used in this location is Fast for Piccadilly and Local for District.
Trains can and do run over each others lines pretty regularly.
 

Mutant Lemming

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There also used to be a 'superfast' Chesham service in the evening peak that ran non-stop Finchley Road to Moor Park.
 

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There were originally two stations on the Met at Marlborough Road and Lords, these were closed when the then Bakerloo (now Jubilee) line opened stations at St Johns Wood and Swiss Cottage. It was, I think, to speed up the Metropolitan services.
 

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There were originally two stations on the Met at Marlborough Road and Lords, these were closed when the then Bakerloo (now Jubilee) line opened stations at St Johns Wood and Swiss Cottage. It was, I think, to speed up the Metropolitan services.
There was also a Metropolitan line station at Swiss Cottage.
Fast services call only at Harrow-on-the-Hill, Wembley Park and Finchley Road between Moor Park and Baker Street. Semi-fast services call additionally at local stations north of Harrow-on-the-Hill. Slow services call everywhere north of Wembley Park. Peak services sometimes omit Wembley Park.

This arrangement was valid until December. Now, most services are slow.
Also until December 2012 fast and semi-fast services didn't stop at Wembley Park at peak times. Back in the 1990s fast and semi-fast services didn't stop at Wembley Park even off peak.
 
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There was also a Metropolitan line station at Swiss Cottage.

Also until December 2012 fast and semi-fast services didn't stop at Wembley Park at peak times. Back in the 1990s fast and semi-fast services didn't stop at Wembley Park even off peak.

Yes, I noticed how the Met's off peak fast and semi fast services were recently ended. What was TfL's justification ?
 

Zoe

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Yes, I noticed how the Met's off peak fast and semi fast services were recently ended. What was TfL's justification ?
One reason was to give Pinner an improved service. Semi-fast off peak services though haven't run since the last major timetable change around 2000.
 

Peter Mugridge

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There are a few semi fasts being run most days ( yes, with passengers, not ecs moves! ) which omit Preston Road and Northwick Park, but this is untimetabled and arranged at short notice - usually to recover late running.

The new timetable may have improved the service at Pinner, but it's slowed it down for everyone north of Moor Park and results in a lot of signal sitting between Harrow and Wembley, meaning that sector is slower as well!
 

Zoe

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The new timetable may have improved the service at Pinner, but it's slowed it down for everyone north of Moor Park and results in a lot of signal sitting between Harrow and Wembley, meaning that sector is slower as well!
North of Moor Park though you have the option of using Chiltern.
 

anthony263

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North of Moor Park though you have the option of using Chiltern.

Yes mostly a 2 carriage class 165 which has been full each time I have used teh Chiltern service.

I am sure I have seen a class 168 pass through Amersham heading to London Marylebone about 2 years ago sadly I missed it as I was too busing going for the Leyland Olympian to Chesham.
 

Mutant Lemming

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Trains could actually run faster going fast on the local than they could on the fast between Moor Park and Harrow.
 

Zoe

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Trains could actually run faster going fast on the local than they could on the fast between Moor Park and Harrow.
Why? Is the line speed actually faster on the local lines? I seem to remember back in 2003 when the fast trains used the southbound local between Harrow and Wembley Park that they had to slow down to pass through the platforms at Northwick Park and Preston Road.
 

12CSVT

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In addition, stations south of Wembley Park were served by the Met until 1939. In the seven years before that, the Met served Stanmore; before that, I do not know where services from Neasden would have gone. This is because the Stanmore branch only opened in 1932 (from 1939 to 1979, it was part of the Bakerloo).

Until the mid 1990s some very early morning (around 0500 to 0600) southbound and some of the last (from around midnight onwards) northbound Metropolitan Line trains served Jubilee line stations between Neasden and West Hampstead. Even some C-stock (Circle Line) trains which stabled overnight at Neasden did this.
 

Mutant Lemming

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Why? Is the line speed actually faster on the local lines? I seem to remember back in 2003 when the fast trains used the southbound local between Harrow and Wembley Park that they had to slow down to pass through the platforms at Northwick Park and Preston Road.

I did say Moor Park and Harrow. The line speed was the same all round and the signalling is unlike other tube lines as it doesn't require trains to slow down to 5mph through stations. (no short overlaps and multi aspect signalling).
 

Zoe

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I did say Moor Park and Harrow. The line speed was the same all round and the signalling is unlike other tube lines as it doesn't require trains to slow down to 5mph through stations. (no short overlaps and multi aspect signalling).
I know but I'm not sure the trains slowed down to 5 mph to pass through Northwick Park and Preston Road, just that they didn't go through at full line speed. I was not sure if this would also be required between Moor Park and Harrow. So why is it faster to run non-stop on the local lines?
 

Cherry_Picker

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You have to slow down for the tripcock tester on the fast lines at Harrow on the Hill heading towards Moor Park regardless of whether you are stopping at the station or not. That is 10mph, and that aside I cant think of where this 5mph rule may have come from.
 

HSTEd

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Is there any particular reason the Metropolitan line resignalling hasn't eliminated tripcocks in favour of something more advanced? (Like TPWS for compatibility with National Rail)

The majority of the Met line is not used by other tube trains so there would be no need for dual systems over much of the track.
 

DavyCrocket

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Is there any particular reason the Metropolitan line resignalling hasn't eliminated tripcocks in favour of something more advanced? (Like TPWS for compatibility with National Rail)

The majority of the Met line is not used by other tube trains so there would be no need for dual systems over much of the track.

Because it hasn't been resignalled.

When it gets done there will be ATO with ATP, not sure if Chiltern's trains will be fitted with target speed indicators or if fixed signalling will be kept.

Then there will be no tripcocks like on the Central, Jubilee and Victoria
 

Metrailway

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Trains could actually run faster going fast on the local than they could on the fast between Moor Park and Harrow.

Line speed for the local between Moor Park - Harrow is 50mph while the fasts are 60mph. But as the A and S Stock are limited to 50mph, there isn't really a time penalty in running fasts on the local if they have a clear run. Indeed when fasts were common, they would be occasionally be diverted via the locals, especially during the summer to avoid the dodgy points at Harrow North Junction.

Because it hasn't been resignalled.

When it gets done there will be ATO with ATP, not sure if Chiltern's trains will be fitted with target speed indicators or if fixed signalling will be kept.

Then there will be no tripcocks like on the Central, Jubilee and Victoria

I think the plan is to install 3 aspect fixed signalling with tripcocks on the lines where Chilterns run.
 

Mutant Lemming

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I know but I'm not sure the trains slowed down to 5 mph to pass through Northwick Park and Preston Road, just that they didn't go through at full line speed. I was not sure if this would also be required between Moor Park and Harrow. So why is it faster to run non-stop on the local lines?

Trains check down on the local approaching Wembley S/B because the starter at Wembley Park is only cleared on approach. The associated signals on the approach will have yellows on them so a train runniing fast will need to check down just in case they don't clear, whereas on the fast, if the road ahead is clear the signals will give a clear run through Wembley.

Not sure why it is faster to run fast on the local from Moor Park but know it was, due to a dead late finishing turn which ran fast down the local. It had the same running time as the fast but would invariably be held between North Harrow and Harrow for time. On occasions when the same turn was switched to the fast for some reason it wouldn't need to be held approaching Harrow.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Line speed for the local between Moor Park - Harrow is 50mph while the fasts are 60mph. But as the A and S Stock are limited to 50mph, there isn't really a time penalty in running fasts on the local if they have a clear run. Indeed when fasts were common, they would be occasionally be diverted via the locals, especially during the summer to avoid the dodgy points at Harrow North Junction.



I think the plan is to install 3 aspect fixed signalling with tripcocks on the lines where Chilterns run.

I am going back a few years I suppose when it was quite natural for one to 'lose the clock' on an A60. The line speed wasn't always 50 and you could get a fair whack out of an A60 in good nic. It was common place to race the diesels from Finchley Road to Neasden South Junction. Deteriorating maintenance of track and stock slowed things down. I did hear once someone bragging about racing the RAT through Chorleywood on the South at 90 - quite believable given the incline and the fact the RAT didn't stop there even considering the actual RAT car was a swinger.
 

Cherry_Picker

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10mph over a tripcock tester?? You wouldn't want to try that on a battery loco... ;):oops:

On a 165/168 that is what people tend to do. I believe the speed is actually "low enough so you can stop before the signal if the test fails" which is in the region of 5-10mph. In practice it is a fairly moot point as pretty much every MYB-AYS train stops at Harrow on the Hill anyway so slowing down for the platform covers the speed over the tester. A similar situation happens at Amersham, though as our trains tend stop much further from the signal there, the test takes place while leaving the station after passengers have boarded.
Obviously if you are travelling ECS then slowing down still has to take place. Until a few years ago there were tripcock tests as you left the Underground too, which required AYS train which were first stop Great Missenden to slow to a crawl through Amersham on a daily basis. It seems that repeated protests from Chiltern that these tests were redundant paid off in the end as the testers were removed.
 
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