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Metropolitan Line Question

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Metrailway

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Not sure why it is faster to run fast on the local from Moor Park but know it was, due to a dead late finishing turn which ran fast down the local. It had the same running time as the fast but would invariably be held between North Harrow and Harrow for time. On occasions when the same turn was switched to the fast for some reason it wouldn't need to be held approaching Harrow.

Line speed for SB trains on the fast at Harrow North is 35mph whilst on the locals if I remember correctly is still 50mph, which probably explains this. For NB trains it's 30mph from Harrow Platform 3 to Harrow North, and 40mph from Platform 1.

I am going back a few years I suppose when it was quite natural for one to 'lose the clock' on an A60. The line speed wasn't always 50 and you could get a fair whack out of an A60 in good nic. It was common place to race the diesels from Finchley Road to Neasden South Junction. Deteriorating maintenance of track and stock slowed things down. I did hear once someone bragging about racing the RAT through Chorleywood on the South at 90 - quite believable given the incline and the fact the RAT didn't stop there even considering the actual RAT car was a swinger.

I have also heard the 90mph story, and there is a recent video online of an A Stock reaching in excess of 70mph between Finchley Road and Neasden, despite the 50mph limit.
 
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I thought the A-stock had a top speed of 70 and S-stock a top speed of 62, not 50. Have they got artificial limiters on them?
 

Dstock7080

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I thought the A-stock had a top speed of 70 and S-stock a top speed of 62, not 50. Have they got artificial limiters on them?
The speedo on A Stock is marked up to 70MPH but they could/can travel faster, there are no limiters.
I believe the top speed of S Stock is limited to 62MPH, although the line speed is officially 50.
 

Metrailway

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I thought the A-stock had a top speed of 70 and S-stock a top speed of 62, not 50. Have they got artificial limiters on them?

The A stock doesn't have a limiter fitted but is not officially permitted to run over 50mph. It is still possible to get over 50mph and actually well over 70mph with an A Stock.

The S Stock top speed is 62mph but currently has it's software modified so it runs to a 'nominal A Stock profile' since it runs with the A Stock and the Met was signalled for the A Stock. Once the A Stock goes, there should be some improvement in the performance of the S Stock, but it's full potential won't be realised until resignalling happens which is 2018 at the very earliest.
 

Dstock7080

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Fast services call only at Harrow-on-the-Hill, Wembley Park and Finchley Road between Moor Park and Baker Street. Semi-fast services call additionally at local stations north of Harrow-on-the-Hill. Slow services call everywhere north of Wembley Park. Peak services sometimes omit Wembley Park.
There are still SB FAST trains which call at Moor Park, Harrow, Finchley Rd etc. only.
 

Mutant Lemming

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Line speed for SB trains on the fast at Harrow North is 35mph whilst on the locals if I remember correctly is still 50mph, which probably explains this. For NB trains it's 30mph from Harrow Platform 3 to Harrow North, and 40mph from Platform 1.



I have also heard the 90mph story, and there is a recent video online of an A Stock reaching in excess of 70mph between Finchley Road and Neasden, despite the 50mph limit.

The diesels hat non-stopped Chorleywood and Ricky managed it so no reason an A60 couldn't.

Over on the Bakerloo there was a Sunday night turn that ran an empty back from Harrow & Wealdstone to Stonebridge where certain crews reckoned you could get 70 out of a 72 stock running down from Kenton to Wembley Central. This stopped when a certain driver tried it and gouged the side of the train and ripped up a few coping stones at Wembley Central on the S/B.

Even humble tube stock can get up a fair turn of speed given the right conditions.
 

ChristopherJ

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Even humble tube stock can get up a fair turn of speed given the right conditions.

I'll tell you a story that I'll never forget. A contact of mine was a Driver on the Piccadilly Line about 7 years ago, he's retired now, and once he had me in the cab for a journey. At Cockfosters he told me this unit he'd just picked up at Arnos Grove was spirited and he was eager to see how fast it would reach on the entirely downhill section between Oakwood and Southgate when going back west.

On arrival at Oakwood WB we waited a minute to ensure we had a clear run down the bank in to Southgate, closed the doors and restarted. Max speed is 45mph. 40... 50... 60... Off the clock... 65.... 70...!!! Before having to brake for Southgate we estimated it hit somewhere around 72mph.

I seriously thought we was going to end up ditched in someone's bedroom just before the tunnel portal in to Southgate station, the carriage was thrashing around like mad. Hucking Fell was an understatement. Whatever they fed that train the night before must of been good.

Also know a District T/op or two who have allegedly 'kept up' with a c2c on the WB stretch between Elm Park and Dagenham East... :shock:
 

Mutant Lemming

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I'll tell you a story that I'll never forget. A contact of mine was a Driver on the Piccadilly Line about 7 years ago, he's retired now, and once he had me in the cab for a journey. At Cockfosters he told me this unit he'd just picked up at Arnos Grove was spirited and he was eager to see how fast it would reach on the entirely downhill section between Oakwood and Southgate when going back west.

On arrival at Oakwood WB we waited a minute to ensure we had a clear run down the bank in to Southgate, closed the doors and restarted. Max speed is 45mph. 40... 50... 60... Off the clock... 65.... 70...!!! Before having to brake for Southgate we estimated it hit somewhere around 72mph.

:

A more frightening stretch on the Picc for speed demons of old was from Caley to Kings Cross. A cetain motorman now sadly no longer with us would put 'Bat Out of Hell' by Meatloaf on his (then new fangled) headphones and hammer down creating dust storms through York Road before dropping the handle to stop on the mark at the Cross.

The Jubilee used to have what was termed the 'Cresta Run' down from St.Johns Wood to Baker Street where certain drivers would hammer down and drop the handle to stop the train, with the platform at Baker Street becoming enveloped in a cloud of dust. This was eventually countered by a set of speed controlled signals on the approach to Baker Street. 'Rumour' has it that this happened after an incident with the first S/B train one morning where a couple of managers heading to 55 joined the driver for the trip South. The driver hammered it even faster than usual thinking that even if he got tripped at the last auto on the approach this would stop him before he would overrun Baker St. he was tripped at the auto, slid past the X and the semi and stopped xxx feet (depending on who is telling the tale) short of a ballast train in the platform at Baker St. All purely urban myth and legend of course. Such things never happen on the railway.
 

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There are a few semi fasts being run most days ( yes, with passengers, not ecs moves! ) which omit Preston Road and Northwick Park, but this is untimetabled and arranged at short notice - usually to recover late running.


If it's not timetabled (to recover late running) they non-stop Wembley Park too. No point putting it on the fast if you're getting them to call there too.


You have to slow down for the tripcock tester on the fast lines at Harrow on the Hill heading towards Moor Park regardless of whether you are stopping at the station or not. That is 10mph, and that aside I cant think of where this 5mph rule may have come from.

On London Underground you have to go past the station starter at 5mph as there is a short overlap on the signal. This however doesn't apply north of Harrow-on-the-Hill.


On a 165/168 that is what people tend to do. I believe the speed is actually "low enough so you can stop before the signal if the test fails" which is in the region of 5-10mph.

It's 10mph by the rule book. Any faster and you risk setting off the tester alarm even if you've passed. You're not expected to be able to stop, just to be doing 10mph. The signaller gets an audiable and visual alarm that you've failed and arrangements will be made. I wouldn't even expect you to notice you've failed it to be honest.
 

Dstock7080

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It's 10mph by the rule book. Any faster and you risk setting off the tester alarm even if you've passed. You're not expected to be able to stop, just to be doing 10mph. The signaller gets an audible and visual alarm that you've failed and arrangements will be made. I wouldn't even expect you to notice you've failed it to be honest.
There are 2 occasions where a train fails a tester and would immediately get tripped, one of them would not give an alarm to the signaller.
 

Daniel

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There are 2 occasions where a train fails a tester and would immediately get tripped, one of them would not give an alarm to the signaller.

Correct, good point, I was referring to the instance where you failed but weren't tripped, as 'being able to stop before the signal' was mention, (which you'd have no control over anyway if you had been tripped)
 

Cherry_Picker

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It's 10mph by the rule book. Any faster and you risk setting off the tester alarm even if you've passed. You're not expected to be able to stop, just to be doing 10mph. The signaller gets an audiable and visual alarm that you've failed and arrangements will be made. I wouldn't even expect you to notice you've failed it to be honest.

There are white lights attached to the signals associated with the tripcock testers, a successful test will turn off the light. It's pretty conspicuous! We have always been told if you fail the test then you must stop before you go past the signal and speak to the bobby, regardless of its aspect.
 

Daniel

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There are white lights attached to the signals associated with the tripcock testers, a successful test will turn off the light. It's pretty conspicuous! We have always been told if you fail the test then you must stop before you go past the signal and speak to the bobby, regardless of its aspect.


I've just double checked our rule book:


Train operator’s first actions
If the tripcock tester indicator stays on and the train has or has not
been tripped, you must:
• reset the tripcock (if the train is tripped)
• proceed to the normal stopping mark
• tell the controller
• tell the station staff (if you cannot do this you must sound the
train whistle to attract their attention)
• detrain the customers.


So doesn't specifically mention whether or not you need to stop - but having had chilterns failed the test before whilst on the first stop Gt. Miss., arrangements were made to stop it at Rickmansworth and detrain. Wasn't questioned why the driver hadn't stopped..
 

Zoe

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If it's not timetabled (to recover late running) they non-stop Wembley Park too. No point putting it on the fast if you're getting them to call there too.
The off peak fast services though since 2004 used the fast lines even though they called at Wembley Park.
 

causton

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The off peak fast services though since 2004 used the fast lines even though they called at Wembley Park.

Indeed they did, was very fun standing at the top of the bridge at Wembley Park seeing which train came first to which platform :P

...however, nowadays the only reason they would be made fast outside of peaks in the peak direction is to recover time, so if the objective is to make the train save as much time as possible, stopping at Wembley would just defeat that objective :)
 

Cherry_Picker

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I've just double checked our rule book:





So doesn't specifically mention whether or not you need to stop - but having had chilterns failed the test before whilst on the first stop Gt. Miss., arrangements were made to stop it at Rickmansworth and detrain. Wasn't questioned why the driver hadn't stopped..


That's interesting. It seems that we (Chiltern) just prefer it if we didn't enter LUL turf after failing a tripcock test then, or at least my DSM likes it that way. I'm curious as to what happened to the drivers who failed the tripcock test and continued on to Rickmansworth when they got to Aylesbury though. I doubt very much any action would have been taken, but its a conversation I'd like to eavesdrop on!
 

Dieseldriver

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That seems a bit dubious regards it continuing to Ricky. (I'm assuming you're talking about a northbound train at platform 1 HOTH) Surely detraining it at Harrow then going up to shunt back into platform 2 and henceforth back onto NR metals makes more sense?
 

Daniel

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That seems a bit dubious regards it continuing to Ricky. (I'm assuming you're talking about a northbound train at platform 1 HOTH) Surely detraining it at Harrow then going up to shunt back into platform 2 and henceforth back onto NR metals makes more sense?


If the train had stopped that's what would have happened, but in this instance the train had continued and had by that point passed the limit of shunt to perform that move.
 

Met Driver

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The only logical (and I hasten to add, correct) interpretation of the rule pertaining to tripcock test failed is that the train must stop, it must be detrained and a second member of staff must ride with the Train Operator, except according to the circumstances outlined at the beginning of that section - and 'couldn't stop in time' is not one of them!
 

Dieseldriver

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Exactly how I interpreted it when I was on LU. Wouldn't have wanted to put it to the test by continuing with the light illuminated. *IF* that train continued to Ricky it should have had a secondman and been going at no more than 15mph.
 

Daniel

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I put my hands up and stand corrected by Met Driver.


*IF* that train continued to Ricky it should have had a secondman and been going at no more than 15mph.


That is correct as to the procedure for when the tripcock on a unit has failed - but in the instance described, where the service had already departed Harrow, what would be the correct procedure then? Contact the controller and ask for him to radio the Chiltern train to stop immediately? Then what? Who would act as a secondman for the driver? Or stop the train at the next station and withdraw it from service, then place a secondman?
 

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You'd have to stop at the next station once the train had left Harrow. Like I said in an earlier post, it opens up all kinds of problems if you go past the signal after failing a tripcock test even if the signal is green.
 

Dstock7080

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There are some locations, Earl's Court comes to mind, where the tripcock tester is placed adjacent to a draw-up signal, so contacting the signaller before movement is always best.
 

DavyCrocket

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There are some locations, Earl's Court comes to mind, where the tripcock tester is placed adjacent to a draw-up signal, so contacting the signaller before movement is always best.

Because you never know who is on the train and jump to conclusions!

I was looking through the rule book for the action to take if trains are failing the tripcock test and it may be because the tester is faulty. In the old Working and Reference Manuals the third train stayed in service. No mention of it now!
 
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