MG11 for using child's ticket - aren't they supposed to explain?

[South]

Hi,

I got given a MG11 today because i was using a childs ticket.

Reason- I cannot afford to pay the train fare and need to get the train once a week for college without college i'm unable to work.

Anyway the guy who wrote it out didn't explain anything about what he was giving me or what i'm supposed to do.

Isn't there a law where they have to explain what is being issued? And can't just leave, he was very uncooperative and quite forceful in what answers he was looking for.

It almost seemed he over enjoyed handing out the notice.

 

[yorkie]

You seem to understand well enough what's happened?

You will be written to, and asked for your version of events, so there's nothing you're "supposed to do" at this stage. You'll need to think carefully what to say.

You may find this helpful RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 10 - Disputes

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Welcome to the forum!
I'll apologise now that my reply probably isn't going to give you much comfort.

Isn't there a law where they have to explain what is being issued? And can't just leave, . . . . .

The problem here seems to be that a Criminal Law had already been broken. By you. Although it will probably be (just) one of the Railway Laws, which could just land you with a criminal conviction for what you have done, there is a slight hint in your explanation about the reasons, which might just lead to a more serious prosecution under the Fraud Act.
My point here, is that the Inspector had good reason to believe that an Offence had occurred and was gathering evidence. There isn't much ground for you now, after the event, to find fault with the Inspector's procedure.

To help you to understand why I suspect that this might be serious, is your explanation that you did this regularly and deliberately, for a reason which the Railway Company will not and cannot consider. It is no business of a Railway Company to be concerned with your education or how you get there - they would presume that if you cannot afford to use their offering then you would choose to use some other facility (e.g. home learning, cycling, change of college, walking, etc.)

My concern is that if you had explained to the Inspector what you have posted on here, then some Railway Companies might consider the Inspector's report (the MG11 form) as the basis for a Fraud prosecution.

No one on here can predict the ooutcome for you, but a lot depends on which Company it was and what is in that written report. Some Companies have a quite predictable process, and others not.

Anyway the guy who wrote it out didn't explain anything about what he was giving me or what i'm supposed to do.

You are not 'supposed to do' anything now. It is for the Company to decide what they will do. If you'd admitted that you routinely defraud them of the fare due for the travel you have taken, then I'll guess that (whichever Company it was) they will get back to you at some point in the future. They'll give you some options of what to do then, and I encourage you to come back here then and let us know how we can advise you when replying to the letter.

Sorry.

 

[455driver]

Hi,

I got given a MG11 today because i was using a childs ticket.

So you are 16 or older!

Reason- I cannot afford to pay the train fare and need to get the train once a week for college without college i'm unable to work.

I cant afford caviar but dont go out and steal it.

Anyway the guy who wrote it out didn't explain anything about what he was giving me or what i'm supposed to do.

There is no requirement to, all he is doing is gathering evidence about the possible offences commited.

Isn't there a law where they have to explain what is being issued? And can't just leave, he was very uncooperative and quite forceful in what answers he was looking for.

No there is no law for them to explain, there are several laws relevant to buying the correct ticket for your journey though!
The fact he was asking the questions in an assertive manner is irrelevant and can actually speed things along so everyone isnt having their time wasted unnecessarily.

It almost seemed he over enjoyed handing out the notice.

Nothing wrong with enjoying your job!


Anyway, there is nothing you can do now except wait for the letter to arrive, when it does explain that you cannot afford food, electric etc and that you are going to College in the hope of being able to pay your way in the future.
But if you can already afford food, electric etc then when you say you cant pay do you actually mean you dont want to spend money on the right train ticket.
There is a world of difference between cant pay and choose not to pay!

 

[RJ]

Hi,

I got given a MG11 today because i was using a childs ticket.

Reason- I cannot afford to pay the train fare and need to get the train once a week for college without college i'm unable to work.

Anyway the guy who wrote it out didn't explain anything about what he was giving me or what i'm supposed to do.

Isn't there a law where they have to explain what is being issued? And can't just leave, he was very uncooperative and quite forceful in what answers he was looking for.

It almost seemed he over enjoyed handing out the notice.

A MG11 is a witness statement which can be used as evidence in court.

It may not be good customer service for a ticket inspector to be less than polite to their passengers, but that isn't necessarily illegal. If there is something that you didn't understand - it may have been worth asking at the time. Granted, some of them do act superior and choose to be completely unapproachable. If you feel they have done something illegal, you may be better off informing the police.

 

[A-driver]

A MG11 is a witness statement which can be used as evidence in court.

It may not be good customer service for a ticket inspector to be less than polite to their passengers, but that isn't necessarily illegal. If there is something that you didn't understand - it may have been worth asking at the time. Granted, some of them do act superior and choose to be completely unapproachable. If you feel they have done something illegal, you may be better off informing the police.

Why on earth should a ticket inspector aim to provide 'good customer service' or even be polite to someone travelling without a ticket? If you are being fined for an incorrect or no ticket then you are not actually a customer as you havnt paid for any 'service'...

Would you expect top customer service from a security guard at tesco if he caught you nicking stuff?

 

[yorkie]

Why on earth should a ticket inspector aim to provide 'good customer service' or even be polite to someone travelling without a ticket?

If nothing else, for the reasons stated by LowLevel and Matt Taylor here http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95934 ...

If you are being fined for an incorrect or no ticket then you are not actually a customer as you havnt paid for any 'service'.

Not that argument again please! If you are being fined you are in Court, by the way. An RPI can gather evidence but they can't find you guilty and issue a fine, in law. No fine was issued. The person is still a 'customer'. I am unsure how this is helping the matter, can I point out a reminder of the sticky thread in this section, please... http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=77759

 

[island]

If you're asking whether you can "get off on a technicality" because some form of words that the revenue protection inspector used with you was incorrect somehow, then the answer is almost certainly not.

As other members have said, your course of action may result in a prosecution for defrauding the Train Operating Company you were using.

I strongly suggest you consider obtaining legal representation as soon as you receive correspondence from the Train Operating Company, if not beforehand. This correspondence will give you an indication of what action the Company is considering taking.

Meanwhile, you would be well-advised to use an alternative method of transport if you cannot afford the appropriate rail fare.

 

[TheWalrus]

On a different note have you considered getting a young person's railcard? It costs £30 per year and saves you 1/3 off most rail fares but I think a minimum fare restriction of £12 applies before 1000.

Is there a bus you can take to college? Many bus operators have student ticket schemes available or you can apply for a bus pass from the council. I know Stagecoach have a GTI (Greener Travel Initiative) scheme if your college participates in it.

 

[A-driver]

If nothing else, for the reasons stated by LowLevel and Matt Taylor here http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95934 ...
Not that argument again please! If you are being fined you are in Court, by the way. An RPI can gather evidence but they can't find you guilty and issue a fine, in law. No fine was issued. The person is still a 'customer'. I am unsure how this is helping the matter, can I point out a reminder of the sticky thread in this section, please... http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=77759

First of all you knew exactly what I meant by 'fine' so you are just being picky by stating I meant 'penalty fare'. I doubt anyone was actually at all confused by this...

Secondly I didn't bring up the customer service argument, RJ did.

And lastly I stand by what I said, you can't argue poor customer service when you are trying to defraud that service in the first place. The OP clearly states he was deliberately traveling on a child's ticket to save money and so he hasn't really got a leg to stand on when it comes to good customer service. If you commit a crime you can't then complain that the service provided by the police in custody is t good enough when they serve you your breakfast etc...

If the OP had made an innocent mistake then if agree the revenue staff should be fair and polite when issuing the fine/penalty/ticket/whatever you want to call it but when they catch someone deliberately trying to get away without paying the fare then they have no need to provide quality customer service and whilst not being rude or aggressive they certainly shouldn't have to be overly polite and friendly!

I understand the OP is trying to get advice on the best possible outcome for himself, we all would and nothing wrong with that, but complaining about the service from the ticket inspector who caught him out is a little silly.

 

[Tetchytyke]

complaining about the service from the ticket inspector who caught him out is a little silly.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. It's funny how it's always people who are in the wrong, and know they're in the wrong, try and kick off about an "assertive" guard. That said, minding your P's and Q's goes a long way towards defusing a situation, and would normally be considered sensible from a self-preservation point of view.

 

[bnm]

Could it not be a rule of this board that if you aren't going to give advice, but instead berate the OP, then its best to say nothing at all?

 

[RJ]

When I say customer service, I mean being professional and respectful towards all passengers - even those bunking the fare. I followed this when I worked in revenue protection and bizarre as it may sound, people even said thank you when I handed them a receipt after Penalty Faring them. I was assertive in collecting the fares and details but had no interest whatsoever in addressing those passengers as if they were the scum of the earth. I answered their questions and they knew where they stood at the end of it.

Those in the same job who were aggressive in asserting themselves got abuse on a regular basis. I don't think that is by mere coincidence.

It's not very professional to be seen to be enjoying catching one out, or being tactless when dealing with them. Even if caught doing something wrong, it does cause people to feel resentment if they feel that they were treated substandardly by someone in a position of authority. Two wrongs don't make a right in this case.

 

[A-driver]

When I say customer service, I mean being professional and respectful towards all passengers - even those bunking the fare. I followed this when I worked in revenue protection and bizarre as it may sound, people even said thank you when I handed them a receipt after Penalty Faring them. I was assertive in collecting the fares and details but had no interest whatsoever in addressing those passengers as if they were the scum of the earth. I answered their questions and they knew where they stood at the end of it.



It's not very professional to be seen to be enjoying catching one out, or being tactless when dealing with them. Even if caught doing something wrong, it does cause people to feel resentment if they feel that they were treated substandardly by someone in a position of authority. Two wrongs don't make a right in this case.

I don't buy the fact that he 'enjoyed' catching someone out. That is very difficult to prove and rather subjective. We only have the OPs word for that aswell and considering the aim of his post was to try and find a way of getting out of or minimising the effect of the penalties I don't think we can rely solely on his word.

As the poster above says-and twitter is often proof of this-often people who get caught out for not having a ticket claim the ticket inspectors were rude or showing poor customer service...

 

[jon0844]

Even the RPI that tried to prosecute me for a perfectly valid ticket combination was polite and professional. And I recall saying thank you afterwards, even if it was quite clear that I was going to take things further and his life might have been made a little harder as a result (not that this had anything to do with me and was between him and FCC).

When I was stopped by the police for speeding in the small hours on a motorway, both officers were very polite. I wasn't aggressive and must have passed the attitude test. It was a little odd them being so nice, and having a friendly conversation, while they were putting me forward for a prosecution!

In my case, it paid off (to a degree) as they submitted a lower speed than I'd been stopped at, which prevented me getting a compulsory ban. Instead, as I pleaded guilty, it was 'just' 6 points and a not insignificant three-figure fine.

In my experiences of seeing RPIs dealing with people on trains and at stations, they're always professional and calm. Some might see that as them being smug, but they're trained to diffuse situations - not escalate them. Exactly the same as the police, and if there are any bad apples, they're not likely to last long as they'll get in so much trouble that they'll either be re-trained or moved.

 

[Mojo]

When I say customer service, I mean being professional and respectful towards all passengers - even those bunking the fare. I followed this when I worked in revenue protection and bizarre as it may sound, people even said thank you when I handed them a receipt after Penalty Faring them. I was assertive in collecting the fares and details but had no interest whatsoever in addressing those passengers as if they were the scum of the earth. I answered their questions and they knew where they stood at the end of it.

Those in the same job who were aggressive in asserting themselves got abuse on a regular basis. I don't think that is by mere coincidence.

Totally agree. As someone authorised to collect Penalty fares, I believe it to be important to address all persons in a respectful manner that you are dealing with. Whilst 'giving it large' might make you feel good, it's also likely to inflame the situation depending on the person you're dealing with.

 

[island]

Could it not be a rule of this board that if you aren't going to give advice, but instead berate the OP, then its best to say nothing at all?

This is already a rule and I suggest you report such posts to the moderators. I do so regularly.

 

[Haywain]

Could it not be a rule of this board that if you aren't going to give advice, but instead berate the OP, then its best to say nothing at all?

I believe it is a rule, but if people come here looking for help and advice I see nothing wrong with advising them of the offence they have committed and how it looks to an outsider. The current case is someone who tells us they have committed premeditated fraud, and is looking for the law to protect them after they were caught. In the circumstances I think it is helpful that they know that the alleged attitude of the person who stopped them is not going to be a defence.

 

[yorkie]

I believe it is a rule, but if people come here looking for help and advice I see nothing wrong with advising them of the offence they have committed and how it looks to an outsider. The current case is someone who tells us they have committed premeditated fraud, and is looking for the law to protect them after they were caught. In the circumstances I think it is helpful that they know that the alleged attitude of the person who stopped them is not going to be a defence.

Agreed - there is nothing wrong with saying that, providing the post, as a whole, can be considered useful advice.

It may well be (and often is) the case that someone needs to be told things they don't want to hear, as part of that advice.

In this case I don't think there's anything we can add really to assist the OP, so until there are any further developments, I suggest we leave it for now.

South - if you have any questions about anything posted in this thread, or our Fares Guide, please don't hesitate to ask.

 

[South]

I think you guys got the wrong end when i said

he was very uncooperative and quite forceful in what answers he was looking for

.

Obviously i don't expect him to be friendly and polite but manipulating and rude isn't exactly 'Professional'

is your explanation that you did this regularly and deliberately, for a reason which the Railway Company will not and cannot consider

My wording is awful, this wasn't a regular thing usually i would buy a full ticket but my over heads are more than my income and and my dept is increasing.

considering the aim of his post was to try and find a way of getting out of or minimising the effect of the penalties I don't think we can rely solely on his word.

The point in my post was that he just left, when the police issue a fine or something they actually explain what it is and what might happen, not just leave. Frankly if it was't for this forum i wouldn't have a clue what it is now.

Thanks for your advice.

 

[34D]

I understand the OP is trying to get advice on the best possible outcome for himself, we all would and nothing wrong with that, but complaining about the service from the ticket inspector who caught him out is a little silly.

Surely that's easy: best possible outcome - no further action, and worst possible outcome - 3 months imprisonment (or more for a Fraud case).

I guess the OP doesn't live in an area where college/uni students can get cheaper fares?

 

[cjmillsnun]

When I say customer service, I mean being professional and respectful towards all passengers - even those bunking the fare.

Oh I'm sorry, respectful to someone defrauding the company he works for? why should he be? Professional and polite I agree with, but respect is earned.

 

[RJ]

Oh I'm sorry, respectful to someone defrauding the company he works for? why should he be? Professional and polite I agree with, but respect is earned.

They should be because it gets people's backs up when spoken to as if they are scum. Fare evasion in itself is not a personal attack on any individual member of staff. In turn, staff should not go out of their way to act superior towards fare evaders. It's as much about self preservation as anything else - there are some strange people out there who turn up to work and choose to behave in such a manner that carries unnecessary risk of being assaulted or generating needless stress.

Those without a superiority complex will have less grief at work and generate less complaints. I also think that mistreating people instills a sense of resentment towars staff, causing problems of a different kind to colleagues in the future.

 

[wijit]

Oh I'm sorry, respectful to someone defrauding the company he works for? why should he be? Professional and polite I agree with, but respect is earned.

Why should he be? Because he is not a judge, jury or executioner. His job is to gather evidence for possible prosecution.

Imagine this (working on assumption); OP is being questioned in full view of other passengers, the RPI is being exactly as described and the other passengers see this but do not know the circumstances which led to the questioning. Consider what these passengers might hear and/or see in terms of attitude from the RPI and then consider how this reflects, not just on that individual but consequently on all operating companies. Not all passengers will differentiate between companies and may well look at one individual as being representative of all.

Not long after I started this thread I was approached by a rather young chap (wearing an operating company Customer Services vest) who asked "Excuse me, but why didn't you buy a ticket?" quite reasonably, but after my explanation whilst queuing for a ticket he followed it with "make sure you get one next time, or we'll have you" in a pathetic attempt at a menacing tone. Not a good example is it?

 

[RPI]

I've been an RPI for nearly 10 years and no matter who I Am dealing with I treat them with respect, whether I'm Penalty faring, MGing, whatever, but the amount of complaints I get saying how mean I was is quite funny, they generally get filed in the appropriate location

 

[Flamingo]

I treat everybody with the appropriate level of respect that their actions and behaviour require, regardless of if they are in possession of a valid ticket or not...

 

[Clip]

I've been an RPI for nearly 10 years and no matter who I Am dealing with I treat them with respect, whether I'm Penalty faring, MGing, whatever, but the amount of complaints I get saying how mean I was is quite funny, they generally get filed in the appropriate location

Quite often I have been out on one of my services and seen our RPIs in action doing just this then a few days later a complaint comes in about their rude and unprofessional behaviour when it has been quite the opposite..

The filing location can become quite full some days

 

[Flamingo]

That's fine if one has a manager that will file those complaints, not one that prefers to do "Please Explain's"

 

[Clip]

That's fine if one has a manager that will file those complaints, not one that prefers to do "Please Explain's"

Our revenue manager isnt that bad with them really - he is fully aware of the travelling publics excuses when they get caught as he was one himself once(RPI that is).

 

[island]

Quite often I have been out on one of my services and seen our RPIs in action doing just this then a few days later a complaint comes in about their rude and unprofessional behaviour when it has been quite the opposite..

The filing location can become quite full some days

Is the filing location cylindrical and regularly emptied?