MG11 issued, please help

[gray1404]

Please can you stop using the word fine. It is not the correct term - although was he saying that it was a fine? It would have been a Penalty Fare which is not a fine. Only a court can impose a fine.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the CCTV footage request comes back. It would be good if you could post it to You Tube so we can view it. Although he might not have been recording at the time, was it flashing or indicating it was recording?

Is an RPI obliged to tell you when they are recording? The problem with foot footage is it only ever shows half a situation and not the entire thing i.e. from when it was activated not from the start of the interaction.

 

[jon0844]

I wouldn't take everything written by the OP as gospel given the inconsistencies.

I'm not sure how anyone was blocked on a moving train. Staff have to stand somewhere and if it's by the door, so be it. Are you held prisoner on a packed train?

I'd love to know the circumstances of a previous incident where a member of staff apparently grabbed his arm. That, to me, sounds rather unlikely or at least not without good reason.

Finally I think perhaps from now on, people assume first class is first class until told otherwise.

 

[najaB]

Is an RPI obliged to tell you when they are recording? The problem with foot footage is it only ever shows half a situation and not the entire thing i.e. from when it was activated not from the start of the interaction.

No, they are not obliged to tell you that they are recording. Most, if not all, body-worn cameras are constantly recording, but automatically overwrite the previous recording unless a button is pressed to store the data permanently - typically, this will store everything from the 15 minutes or so prior to when the button was pressed.

 

[Darandio]

erm no! i said all along i will pay when he gives me a slip like he was meant to, i have no issue paying the fine

That isn't what you originally said. This is going nowhere, i'm out.

 

[jon0844]

Another oddity is being told that usually staff just let people leave first class. How would the OP know this? Standing outside first class looking in to see? Or inside first class and being one of the ones told to move (which would suggest regular offending)?

The few people who pay extra for first class have every right to have first class to themselves and other passengers who have paid. Revenue inspectors have a duty to assist, or even fewer people will pay. One day I am sure first class will be axed entirely, but until then first class is first class unless told otherwise (either in the timetable, or announced as declassified for that service).

Given the screens can display when standard class ticket holders may sit somewhere, it's even easier - although I am not sure if the front says this on the routes where it's declassified both ends? Still, the screens are a bonus.

 

[Master29]

This may seem harsh but as I said earlier. The best you can hope for is an out of court settlement considering what happened. I made the mistake of arguing with an incident regarding my daughters foolishness for not dissimilar reasons to yourself. I argued with members who told me the outcome and ended up telling them to shove their advice. I later realised how stupid that was and it did go to crown court as it had already been dealt with in absence because she didn`t notify the TOC of her change of address. She was pregnant at the time and the judge was lenient. She was only fined £100 which considering what happens on here was a very good outcome. Initially it had gone up to £900. You are arguing with people who know the system and they have given you good advice whether it sounds harsh or not. That`s how it is and why you need to accept this as a learning curve. Maybe you need to do a little research on consumer law. I think it should be taught in schools myself but that's another story.

 

[Mem]

Please can you stop using the word fine. It is not the correct term - although was he saying that it was a fine? It would have been a Penalty Fare which is not a fine. Only a court can impose a fine.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the CCTV footage request comes back. It would be good if you could post it to You Tube so we can view it. Although he might not have been recording at the time, was it flashing or indicating it was recording?

Is an RPI obliged to tell you when they are recording? The problem with foot footage is it only ever shows half a situation and not the entire thing i.e. from when it was activated not from the start of the interaction.

wasnt flashing or had a red dot on it or nothing like that
i want the footage to be seen as it backs up what i have been saying and to be fair i cant remember what term he used, he may have said fine he may not have, i do not recall

 

[jon0844]

I can't see why anything would be recorded. If you didn't do something silly like try to push past, spit or any other assault then the camera footage wouldn't be saved (and thus overwritten). Neither revenue, nor BTP, REOs or normal police with cameras save everything. They just press a button to save important footage, like you would with a dashcam.

From what you've been saying happened, if it was recorded then you'd probably not want the footage to be seen by anyone anyway.

 

[Mem]

I wouldn't take everything written by the OP as gospel given the inconsistencies.

I'm not sure how anyone was blocked on a moving train. Staff have to stand somewhere and if it's by the door, so be it. Are you held prisoner on a packed train?

I'd love to know the circumstances of a previous incident where a member of staff apparently grabbed his arm. That, to me, sounds rather unlikely or at least not without good reason.

Finally I think perhaps from now on, people assume first class is first class until told otherwise.

when they grabbed my arm i complained and i was found to be right and the officer wrong, wasnt even about sitting in the wrong zone, i was helping a pregnant lady and they used force to move me out the way
he was in the middle of the carridge, i couldnt walk past him without barging past him and for obvs reasons i didnt want to do that, i asked him to stand to one side and let me pass, he answered no im not moving and neither are u, hence why i want the footage

 

[londonboi198o5]

he fined 2 people before he spoke to me and he never asked any of us where we were going, jjust straight £40 fines for everyone

i was going from luton to blackfriers and then home again

You said at the start you was going from Blackfriars to Luton but in a post on page 3 you said you was going from Luton to Blackfriars ????

At what point did you try and leave the 1st class compartment the reason I ask is you keep going on about the rpi “blocking you from exiting”. What this sounds to me is that you realised you was in the wrong when the inspector was dealing with the other passengers and tried to walk out to avoid being dealt with. The inspector has saw you and blocked the door preventing you from getting away with it.
I may be totally wrong but this is exactly what jumped into my head as soon as I read your post about the other people in the carriage getting penalties as well.

 

[londonboi198o5]

when they grabbed my arm i complained and i was found to be right and the officer wrong, wasnt even about sitting in the wrong zone, i was helping a pregnant lady and they used force to move me out the way
he was in the middle of the carridge, i couldnt walk past him without barging past him and for obvs reasons i didnt want to do that, i asked him to stand to one side and let me pass, he answered no im not moving and neither are u, hence why i want the footage

I don’t wish to sound rude or anything but you keep bringing up this previous incident youbhave had bad in November in almost every post like you are trying to use this incident to get out of this one. That is a separate incident and this is a new one. YOUR actions and wrong doings are what the company will be looking st in this case. You have said yourself you were polite and friendly towards the RPI. You sat in first class on a standard class ticket again YOU are in the wrong here not the inspector. YOU gave the wrong information to a inspector. Bringing your previous incident into this is not going to work. So I would forget all about that incident and focus on the one in hand. Or the one YOU are in the wrong for.
Like I say sorry if this sounds rude it is not intended that way but you need to focus on this incident.

 

[Mem]

That isn't what you originally said. This is going nowhere, i'm out.

try listening or reading the other comments then, thanks for your help though i do appreciate it

 

[Mem]

I don’t wish to sound rude or anything but you keep bringing up this previous incident youbhave had bad in November in almost every post like you are trying to use this incident to get out of this one. That is a separate incident and this is a new one. YOUR actions and wrong doings are what the company will be looking st in this case. You have said yourself you were polite and friendly towards the RPI. You sat in first class on a standard class ticket again YOU are in the wrong here not the inspector. YOU gave the wrong information to a inspector. Bringing your previous incident into this is not going to work. So I would forget all about that incident and focus on the one in hand. Or the one YOU are in the wrong for.
Like I say sorry if this sounds rude it is not intended that way but you need to focus on this incident.

i get what you are saying, the main point in me mentioning the other incident is because it scared me and kind of brought back what happened and i panicked and wrote the wrong adresss, realising what i dont i then changed it
i will be focused on this incident, i was trying to explain how i felt at the time, sorry if thats confused things

 

[Mem]

You said at the start you was going from Blackfriars to Luton but in a post on page 3 you said you was going from Luton to Blackfriars ????

At what point did you try and leave the 1st class compartment the reason I ask is you keep going on about the rpi “blocking you from exiting”. What this sounds to me is that you realised you was in the wrong when the inspector was dealing with the other passengers and tried to walk out to avoid being dealt with. The inspector has saw you and blocked the door preventing you from getting away with it.
I may be totally wrong but this is exactly what jumped into my head as soon as I read your post about the other people in the carriage getting penalties as well.

i understand why u think that way, i waited for the rpi and only tried moving once we had that conversation, it wasnt because he was dealing with others, i actually said to him i will move and wait outside the door, simular to another passenger that done the same, still waitied and talked to him, i wasnt going anywhere

 

[londonboi198o5]

No need to apologise or say say sorry I was just trying to point out how the 2 separate incidents won’t relate in this case that’s all. Like I say I didn’t want it to come across in a rude tone or way so I apologise if it did

 

[Mem]

No need to apologise or say say sorry I was just trying to point out how the 2 separate incidents won’t relate in this case that’s all. Like I say I didn’t want it to come across in a rude tone or way so I apologise if it did

not at all, even if people are im not fussed, im just after advise

 

[Mem]

I can't see why anything would be recorded. If you didn't do something silly like try to push past, spit or any other assault then the camera footage wouldn't be saved (and thus overwritten). Neither revenue, nor BTP, REOs or normal police with cameras save everything. They just press a button to save important footage, like you would with a dashcam.

From what you've been saying happened, if it was recorded then you'd probably not want the footage to be seen by anyone anyway.

wrong, i want the footage to be seen and i will also post it up for you all to see

 

[jon0844]

wrong, i want the footage to be seen and i will also post it up for you all to see

I imagine you'd need permission to post a private video on private property on YouTube or similar, if anyone else was in the footage.

In any case, if you're talking about footage from the November 'incident' then unless you have it already, I think that ship has sailed.

 

[A Challenge]

I thought all footage was deleted (in normal course) at the end of the shift, unless the RPI thought there was a reason for it to be kept?

 

[221129]

wrong, i want the footage to be seen and i will also post it up for you all to see

I think youll struggle...

 

[Mem]

I imagine you'd need permission to post a private video on private property on YouTube or similar, if anyone else was in the footage.

In any case, if you're talking about footage from the November 'incident' then unless you have it already, I think that ship has sailed.

november has been sorted and im refering to footage from yesterdays event

 

[najaB]

november has been sorted and im refering to footage from yesterdays event

It's highly unlikely that the footage is still available. Most body-worn cameras only store a few hours footage at most, and overwrites it constantly.

 

[JB_B]

How Much more clear can thameslink make it ?

1. to enter the first class comparment you need to walk through a glass partition with a glass door that CLEARLY states on it 1st Class (JB_B: but it is sometimes available to standard class ticket holders )
2. All the seats have head covers on them again saying 1st class (JB_B: but they are sometimes available to standard class ticket holders )
3. The windows in that section have 1st class marked on them ( JB_B: ditto )
4. The platform screens for the next train state which section is classified and de classified. (JB_B: I don't doubt you but I've never seen this myself )

This isn't any help to the OP but I think GTR really have created a problem by providing almost no public information on their declassification policy.

It's very hard to spot the declassification message if you're on the train - see e.g. my post here:-

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/people-standing-in-first-class.157387/#post-3216529

Because of the very poor communication from GTR re declassification, many passengers only get to hear about declassification from their fellow travellers.

I've met a passenger from Brighton who was told "this end is always declassified" and who not unreasonably (but dangerously) understood that to mean that the "Brighton-end" 1st class is always declassified.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Another oddity is being told that usually staff just let people leave first class. How would the OP know this? Standing outside first class looking in to see? Or inside first class and being one of the ones told to move (which would suggest regular offending)?

I’m not the only one to notice that then. The OP keeps referring to an honest mistake but at the same time keeps referring to RPIs usually just allowing people incorrectly in 1st to move.

A possible theory – the OP has made this honest mistake several times, the RPI has dealt with them before by asking him/her to move and has now come to the conclusion it is neither honest nor a mistake.

 

[jon0844]

It's not difficult at all to avoid being 'caught' in first class.

First class is marked first class and pretty damn obvious (compared to other stock and how bad some trains have been marked in years gone by).

So you get on and assume it IS first class unless you've checked the timetable OR seen the platform screens saying it's at the front of the train only. Or asked staff. Or maybe even posted on here!

The only exception was/is when weekend 700s are replaced with 387s and the screens still say 'front of train' which is misleading, although maybe now fixed and hopefully a temporary issue as 700s should be used on weekends anyway. In that case, I'd expect an appeal to succeed, or for revenue officers to show discretion in the first place.

I really don't know what more needs to be done. Just assume it's first class, as marked, until you know for sure otherwise. You can't mess up then. It's not as if anyone HAS to be in first class - there's 7 and a half, or 11 and a half, coaches available. Even on the trains where it's declassified both ends, that's still a tiny part of the overall train.

 

[jon0844]

I’m not the only one to notice that then. The OP keeps referring to an honest mistake but at the same time keeps referring to RPIs usually just allowing people incorrectly in 1st to move.

A possible theory – the OP has made this honest mistake several times, the RPI has dealt with them before by asking him/her to move and has now come to the conclusion it is neither honest nor a mistake.

This would make sense. Revenue staff often show discretion but they also get quite good at remembering certain people and, for some reason I can't quite put my finger on, the OP seems like someone you might remember...

 

[Haywain]

Because of the very poor communication from GTR re declassification, many passengers only get to hear about declassification from their fellow travellers.

When I travelled this morning, there were manual and automatic announcements to the effect that first class at the rear of the train is declassified. The departure boards clearly indicated that first class accommodation is at the front of the train, and the information display in the rear first class section periodically displays a message stating that the area is for the use of standard class ticket holders. Thameslink's twitter feed regularly tells people about the declassification policy.

As someone making a very similar journey to the OP, I find it difficult to believe that a regular commuter (ie: the holder of a monthly season) will not be aware of where first class accommodation is found, and on which trains - namely at the front of fast trains between Luton and London.

 

[Mem]

This isn't any help to the OP but I think GTR really have created a problem by providing almost no public information on their declassification policy.

It's very hard to spot the declassification message if you're on the train - see e.g. my post here:-

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/people-standing-in-first-class.157387/#post-3216529

Because of the very poor communication from GTR re declassification, many passengers only get to hear about declassification from their fellow travellers.

I've met a passenger from Brighton who was told "this end is always declassified" and who not unreasonably (but dangerously) understood that to mean that the "Brighton-end" 1st class is always declassified.

Very good point made, the issue is going to be arguing a case. The problem I have with this is you are innocent untill proven guilty. In this circumstance especially, there is alot to consider clearly.
The issue comes when, from judging by some of the comments here alone is that I have to govel, apologise for my actions and how i acted to the ticket guy? When really I was very polite, didn't swear or trouble him in anyway. Wasn't physical to him or nothing like that so why am I apologising???
It's been made clear, from what i can gather, that I need to fully accept the blame and apologise to the guy like i attacked him or something

Why will me not telling the truth have any affect?

 

[Mem]

This would make sense. Revenue staff often show discretion but they also get quite good at remembering certain people and, for some reason I can't quite put my finger on, the OP seems like someone you might remember...

Only ever been asked for my ticket twice and other thrn yesterday the last time was last year January. I'm never a problem and I know more of the staff at the stations and regularly say hello to them.

It's wrong to presume ehat u have and that's the main issue I see here
Thry will just do as you have and presume.
That leaves no room for an appeal and makes me instantly guilty?
Not fair and not true

 

[Haywain]

Why will me not telling the truth have any affect?

The consensus here seems to be that it will make resolving the matter more difficult.