Mg11 was issued what happens next

Status
Not open for further replies.

rondee21

Member
Joined
22 May 2021
Messages
6
Location
London
Hi,

This is my first silly mistake ever made.
I forgot to tap my contactless card as i was in a hurry. So i got to my station plumstead and i notice the ticket inspector and police so i panic and waited for a while then a guy came to meet me showed me his ID was the police and ask where i was going and i was confused and he said be honest with me, so i said i forgot to tap at Greenwich and didnt know what to do as this has never happened.I pay my fares. I panicked and he was asking questions and i was just saying rubbish as this has never happened to me. So he cautioned me and issued me with MG11 and i am scared due to my job and i don't want any criminal conviction. Please i need advice. What should I do?
Should I write to them before they write to me?

Thanks

My contactless was not inspected, i didnt have opportunity to touch out at plumstead as i was given a MG11 already so the uniform police told me to just show the paper and they let me go at the entrance.
I said i forgot to touched in as i was in a hurry. I gave all correct details.
I normally dont use my contactless card as i couldn't find my oyster. I had to get home cos my little one was outside waiting to get in.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Fawkes Cat

Established Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
1,407
Welcome to the forum.

The most likely course of events will be something like this:
- The railway (or possibly a company working for them - a lot of train companies use an organisation called Transport Investigations Limited) will write to you asking for your side of the story.
- you should reply, briefly but honestly, explaining what happened and offering to pay the train fare that you didn't pay and the costs that the railway has had.
- the railway write back, and offer a settlement. Costs are typically around £100 although we sometimes see higher amounts
- you pay the settlement, and that's the end of the matter - nothing goes to court.

That's what's most likely to happen, but there's no guarantee: at one end, the railway might take no action and you will never hear from them again (which also means that you don't need to write to them first - wait for the railway to write to you) at the other they could take you straight to court. In between, they might not offer a chance to settle - but at every stage it's worth asking for a settlement, even on the day of the court case.

But what if the worst happens and you end up in court? There are a couple of recent threads on this forum which show the typical punishment - a fine of about half a week's income (£220 in recent examples) plus costs of £150, plus some other amounts. And you may have to tell some people about your conviction.

But even that may not be too dreadful. There are some jobs in finance that require you to have a completely clean record, but not many others: for example if you look at the Nursing and Midwifery Council's website you will see that something like this wouldn't stop you being a nurse.

Obviously, if you can, it's worth avoiding a conviction: if nothing else, it's cheaper. But if you are convicted, it's not a disaster.
 

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
595
Location
Nottinghamshire
Are you saying the police dealt with you? If so, there will be no settlement opportunity.

Can you please clarify who cautioned you (read you your rights)?
 

Hadders

Established Member
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
9,031
Did you use a contactless card or an Oyster PAYG card. Did the inspector use a device to read your card to check if you had tapped in?
 

londonteacher

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2018
Messages
495
I forgot to tap my contactless card as i was in a hurry
To be honest that's no excuse - If a fine comes just pay it.

If you can prove you pay for your journey normally using the TFL app/website then that may help your case as it shows it's a genuine mistake.
 

Hadders

Established Member
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
9,031
Inspectors aren’t able to check whether a contactless card has been tapped in. What they do is scan the card and later that night, during overnight processing, charge a maximum fare to any card that hasn’t been touched in. Three maximum fares and the card is black listed. @MikeWh can elaborate further.

I suspect there might be more to this....
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
26,381
Inspectors aren’t able to check whether a contactless card has been tapped in. What they do is scan the card and later that night, during overnight processing, charge a maximum fare to any card that hasn’t been touched in. Three maximum fares and the card is black listed. @MikeWh can elaborate further.

I suspect there might be more to this....
Well the admission in the first post is that he hung back, and then admitted when questioned that he hadn’t tapped in, that probably means he went beyond the point where an inspector would normally just scan the card…
 

MotCO

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
2,353
Are you saying the police dealt with you? If so, there will be no settlement opportunity.

Can you please clarify who cautioned you (read you your rights)?

Can police issue MG11's?

To the OP:
It is likely to be several weeks before you hear back from the train company or its agents. It may be useful to write down now exactly what happened from the time you arrived at your home station to the time the police and inspectors went away. e.g. why did you not tap in at your home station, did you have enough funds on your card, what did the police and inspectors say to you, what did you say, did you sign anything, were you polite, did you provide your correct name and address etc. Otherwise, when you're asked for your version of events, you may forget salient points. (You don't need to share these facts with this forum; it is just for your own records.)
 

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
6,680
Can police issue MG11's?

To the OP:
It is likely to be several weeks before you hear back from the train company or its agents. It may be useful to write down now exactly what happened from the time you arrived at your home station to the time the police and inspectors went away. e.g. why did you not tap in at your home station, did you have enough funds on your card, what did the police and inspectors say to you, what did you say, did you sign anything, were you polite, did you provide your correct name and address etc. Otherwise, when you're asked for your version of events, you may forget salient points. (You don't need to share these facts with this forum; it is just for your own records.)
It’s been said a number of times recently that most of that will be of no interest to the train company. They want the matter sorted out without reading all the excuses that they will have seen before. What it needs is an apology, an indication that a lesson has been learned and an request to settle the matter.
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
6,709
Location
Crayford
Inspectors aren’t able to check whether a contactless card has been tapped in. What they do is scan the card and later that night, during overnight processing, charge a maximum fare to any card that hasn’t been touched in. Three maximum fares and the card is black listed. @MikeWh can elaborate further.

I suspect there might be more to this....

Well the admission in the first post is that he hung back, and then admitted when questioned that he hadn’t tapped in, that probably means he went beyond the point where an inspector would normally just scan the card…
Yes, hanging back and being questioned will have taken the inspector straight to processing the MG11. @Hadders is correct about the process for checking contactless cards. It's a shame the OP didn't just get checked and touch out because that would have been the end of it on this occasion.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
26,381
Can police issue MG11's?
Yes of course. It’s a standard format police “witness statement” form, I always assumed MG originally came from “magistrates guidance”. Didn’t start out as a railway form, although it obviously comes up constantly in this forum‘s subject matter.
 

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
595
Location
Nottinghamshire
Can police issue MG11's?

To the OP:
It is likely to be several weeks before you hear back from the train company or its agents. It may be useful to write down now exactly what happened from the time you arrived at your home station to the time the police and inspectors went away. e.g. why did you not tap in at your home station, did you have enough funds on your card, what did the police and inspectors say to you, what did you say, did you sign anything, were you polite, did you provide your correct name and address etc. Otherwise, when you're asked for your version of events, you may forget salient points. (You don't need to share these facts with this forum; it is just for your own records.)
Police do many MG11s each shift. Can be used to record everything from murder to littering, and everything in between.

An MG11 is just a witness statement detailing events, and usually responses to questions being asked, which is usually admitted as evidence in court, it's not anything special in itself, but is why you should reply with "No Comment" if you're in the wrong, at least until you've had some advice.

You can't be "issued" an MG11, regardless of whether the police or inspector write one out.

Manual of Guidance Form 11.
 

Cdd89

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2017
Messages
853
The questions I can see as being relevant are:
  1. Was your contactless payment card inspected in the end (i.e. was it touched against an inspector's handheld reader)?
  2. Did you touch out on the reader at Plumstead at the end of your journey?
  3. What exactly did you admit in the interview (did you say you may have forgotten, definitely forgot, ...?)
I would also ask whether your Contactless Journey History will show a recent history of consistently touching in and out for journeys between two stations that do not have barriers. This would be extremely helpful to you in proving good intentions / a genuine one-off error, if so.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
26,381
The questions I can see as being relevant are:
  1. Was your contactless payment card inspected in the end (i.e. was it touched against an inspector's handheld reader)?
  2. Did you touch out on the reader at Plumstead at the end of your journey?
  3. What exactly did you admit in the interview (did you say you may have forgotten, definitely forgot, ...?)
I would also ask whether your Contactless Journey History will show a recent history of consistently touching in and out for journeys between two stations that do not have barriers. This would be extremely helpful to you in proving good intentions / a genuine one-off error, if so.
There’s no point in inspecting the card, because the OP, by his own actions and words, has already shown he has not touched in.
 

rondee21

Member
Joined
22 May 2021
Messages
6
Location
London
The questions I can see as being relevant are:
  1. Was your contactless payment card inspected in the end (i.e. was it touched against an inspector's handheld reader)?
  2. Did you touch out on the reader at Plumstead at the end of your journey?
  3. What exactly did you admit in the interview (did you say you may have forgotten, definitely forgot, ...?)
I would also ask whether your Contactless Journey History will show a recent history of consistently touching in and out for journeys between two stations that do not have barriers. This would be extremely helpful to you in proving good intentions / a genuine one-off error, if so.
My contactless was not inspected, i didnt have opportunity to touch out at plumstead as i was given a MG11 already so the uniform police told me to just show the paper and they let me go at the entrance.
I said i forgot to touched in as i was in a hurry. I gave all correct details.
I normally dont use my contactless card as i couldn't find my oyster. I had to get home cos my little one was outside waiting to get in

I'm confused, if you'd forgotten to tap your card how would you remember?
I remember when i got on the train as i was running to get the train

Are you saying the police dealt with you? If so, there will be no settlement opportunity.

Can you please clarify who cautioned you (read you your rights)?
Yes read the right
 
Last edited:

skyhigh

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
1,557
Are you 100% sure it was police who dealt with you, and not revenue inspectors? They can also wear hi-vis and can read you a caution.
 

Fawkes Cat

Established Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
1,407
He was a police, he was in plain cloth
And does the MG11 say who issued it? I'm guessing this might be shown on the top of the form, or possibly in the signature of who wrote the MG11 down?

And I know that this might be a rather nosey question, but you've told us that
I panicked and he was asking questions and i was just saying rubbish as this has never happened to me.
Quite what do you mean by 'saying rubbish'? Did you get cross, and did this come out in what you said? While you probably don't think that you were rude, did you use 'bad language' (think of the sort of thing that your grandmother or possibly a school teacher might tell you was 'bad language')? Or did you say things that you know to be untrue? The reason I'm asking is that these are the sort of things that might make the matter look worse to the railway (or to the police) - and the worse it looks, the more difficult it will be to get the railway to agree to settle out of court.
 

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
595
Location
Nottinghamshire
He was a police, he was in plain cloth
Ok- well nothing on this forum is likely to assist you unfortunately. The police won’t be interested in any arguments you want to make now. Your actions at the time and your answers to questions will be used as evidence. Your behaviour in acting elusive will likely support the “intent” element they need for the more serious charge.

The police aren’t going to settle out of court.

Wait for the paperwork to arrive, and come back then, it will likely either be a Single Justice Procedure Notice for Byelaw 18 or a summons to court for Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

With the police, probably the second one.

Could take up to 6 months.

If you do go to court, and plead guilty, assuming an average level of income, you’ll get a fine of about £200-£250, CPS costs of about £100, victim surcharge and you’ll have to pay compensation equivalent to the fare avoided. All of the above shouldn’t exceed £400-£500. You can pay in realistic instalments if you can demonstrate you can’t afford it as one payment. You’ll get a criminal record for either offence, but the Byelaw one won’t be revealed except in very, very specific circumstances and possibly only on an Enhanced check. You’ll get a normal criminal record for the Regulation of Railways offence.
 
Last edited:

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
12,749
Location
0036
Revenue Inspectors are often in plain clothes as well.


You don't get issued an MG11. It's a witness statement retained by the enforcing officers.
It’s common on some TOCs for a copy of the MG11 or other paperwork to be handed to the alleged offender at the time.

It's a shame the OP didn't just get checked and touch out because that would have been the end of it on this occasion.
Indeed.

With both of the OP’s start and finish stations being unbarriered and all services on the route being single-staffed by the driver, there are a considerable number of ”forgetful” travellers in the area who get ”confused” about touching in and out…
 

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
595
Location
Nottinghamshire
It’s common on some TOCs for a copy of the MG11 or other paperwork to be handed to the alleged offender at the time.


Indeed.

With both of the OP’s start and finish stations being unbarriered and all services on the route being single-staffed by the driver, there are a considerable number of ”forgetful” travellers in the area who get ”confused” about touching in and out…
I can't see how a copy of an MG11 can be easily given on the spot!

Might get a slip or some other leaflet explaining the process, but the Police certainly wouldn't give anything out.
 

skyhigh

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
1,557
I can't see how a copy of an MG11 can be easily given on the spot!

Might get a slip or some other leaflet explaining the process, but the Police certainly wouldn't give anything out.
While we don't give out MG11s at our TOC, we can issue copies of Ticket Irregularity Reports to passengers when stopped. The details are recorded into a mobile device which prints a copy out. They basically just say that person X of such and such address was stopped at station Y by an inspector having travelled from station Z and a report is being made to the prosecution department as the passenger was unable to provide a valid ticket because they didn't buy one or whatever. I imagine an MG11 that is issued on the spot contains a similar sort of information.

Personally, I'd be very surprised if this is actually being dealt with by the police. If the slip they got given was on a long bit of orange paper I suspect it was a revenue inspector that stopped them.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
12,749
Location
0036
I can't see how a copy of an MG11 can be easily given on the spot!

Might get a slip or some other leaflet explaining the process, but the Police certainly wouldn't give anything out.
I can’t speak of the police, but Southeastern RPIs (at least) carry portable thermal printers and can use these. There is also the possibility of NCR duplicate pads.
 

rondee21

Member
Joined
22 May 2021
Messages
6
Location
London
Hi, i just got a letter from them. I need help regarding how to go about it please.

Thanks for your support and advice
 

Attachments

  • 20210527_175020.jpg
    20210527_175020.jpg
    1.6 MB · Views: 137

skyhigh

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
1,557
Hi, i just got a letter from them. I need help regarding how to go about it please.

Thanks for your support and advice
Just to be clear, from that letter it is the train company who are dealing with this - the police are not involved.

As @Fawkes Cat said:
- you should reply, briefly but honestly, explaining what happened and offering to pay the train fare that you didn't pay and the costs that the railway has had.
Basically, write back apologising for your actions (but not making excuses) and offer to pay a suitable fee to conclude the matter to their satisfaction. If you write a draft, you can post it on here to get feedback on it.
 

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
6,680
I need help regarding how to go about it please.
Please see below excellent advice from another thread:
You are likely to receive a letter from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this, and the train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court, however harsh this may seem.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around a hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.
 

rondee21

Member
Joined
22 May 2021
Messages
6
Location
London
This is the letter i intend to write

I am writing regarding the above matter and wish to comment as requested.

When I boarded the service in question I hadn’t “tapped in” because I was worried I’d miss the train. When I arrived at Plumstead, I was approached by the BTP officer and I panicked. I realise that I should have explained what had happened from the beginning.

I agree that I shouldn’t have boarded the train without having tapped in. When I arrived at Plumstead I should have gone to the exit and explained myself to the officers. I am very sorry for my actions and will not let this happen again.

I would like to settle this matter without the need for court action. Can I therefore pay the outstanding fare plus any administrative charges Southeastern would wish to levy to conclude the matter?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

Please advice is need to amend letter. Thanks

@skyhigh @MikeWh
@Fawkes Cat help is need regarding the letter please. Thanks
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top