MG11

[QWERTYUIOP]

Hello all,

I have got myself in to trouble by acting stupidly and am hoping for some advise.

I commute to London from a station that does not have any ticket barriers.
I made a really bad decision (without any thought for the consequences), to buy tickets only from the nearest station to London, in an attempt to save money.
(I was buying online using an App, and printing at my home station)
I have never offended previously, I'm aware this is totally wrong and is something I deeply regret.

I got off the train at London, and entered my ticket at the barrier. The barrier did not open, so I showed my ticket to barrier staff. They told me to stay there and waved over 2 undercover officers. They asked me where I had got on the train - They said would check CCTV, and seemed to know it was not the station I had on my ticket, so I admitted I had boarded elsewhere, further out. They asked how long it had been going on, and I said it has started that week.
They noted all of this down, took my details and printed an MG11 receipt which included a reference number and correspondence address for the train company. The officer advised that the train company would be in touch and would let me know what further course of action they would take.

As described above, I told the officers this had happened before
I assume they will check themselves using CCTV and their ticketing records, and it may be worse for me if I keep quiet about this and am found out further down the line.
Should I write to them now before their letter arrives and confess to the additional occurrences?

Can anyone advise when I might expect the train companies letter and what it might say and what the consequences might be?

I am very concerned about the prospect of a criminal conviction - I stupidly never stopped to think this could be the consequence of what I was doing.

Hopefully somebody on here can offer some advise

many thanks

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello all,

I have got myself in to trouble by acting stupidly and am hoping for some advise.

I commute to London from a station that does not have any ticket barriers.
I made a really bad decision (without any thought for the consequences), to buy tickets only from the nearest station to London, in an attempt to save money.
(I was buying online using an App, and printing at my home station)
I have never offended previously, I'm aware this is totally wrong and is something I deeply regret.

I got off the train at London, and entered my ticket at the barrier. The barrier did not open, so I showed my ticket to barrier staff. They told me to stay there and waved over 2 undercover officers. They asked me where I had got on the train - They said would check CCTV, and seemed to know it was not the station I had on my ticket, so I admitted I had boarded elsewhere, further out. They asked how long it had been going on, and I said it has started that week.
They noted all of this down, took my details and printed an MG11 receipt which included a reference number and correspondence address for the train company. The officer advised that the train company would be in touch and would let me know what further course of action they would take.

As described above, I told the officers this had happened before earlier in the week.
The truth is, that it has been going on for a month rather than a week.
I assume they will check themselves using CCTV and their ticketing records, and it may be worse for me if I keep quiet about this and am found out further down the line.
Should I write to them now before their letter arrives and confess to the additional occurrences?

Can anyone advise when I might expect the train companies letter and what it might say and what the consequences might be?

I am very concerned about the prospect of a criminal conviction - I stupidly never stopped to think this could be the consequence of what I was doing.

Hopefully somebody on here can offer some advise

many thanks

Some other recent threads on here cover very similar circs - worth a look - may help if you state which train company this is as others may have useful views on what they may well do if you inform them of other instances.

Also how you buy tickets could be a factor (ie if you use cash at vending machine for example versus buying on line which they may be more easily able to trace if they look at records)

eg this one

Short_Ticket

My daughter was stopped this week using a 'short-ticket. She entered the origin two stops away from London to save some money. She has done this four times. She confessed and owned up to the detaining officer at the southern barrier and admitted she intentionally tried to avoid the fares. At...

www.railforums.co.uk

and

Short Ticketing - Any advice?

Hi All, Firstly, i know i have done something very stupid and wrong, i can't quite believe i've got into such trouble. Any help on what is likely to happen or what actions i should take would be really appreciated. I was stopped at Liverpool St on 4th Nov, the guy (he showed me a badge so i...

www.railforums.co.uk

also another recent one where train company wanted to discuss issues and the poster had been evading fares for longer but wondered about owning up to that - which he did in the end (against the advice of solicitor he consulted IIRC) and got a settlement from train company without court action which he was relieved about - can't find the thread at the mo.

I'm not sure if I would confess extra occurrences now (although it would be wise not to deny them if you are asked), since you can admit to them as part of your response to them when they write to you anyway - but others may have other views on that key question.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

Let's look at your specific questions in reverse order:

I am very concerned about the prospect of a criminal conviction - I stupidly never stopped to think this could be the consequence of what I was doing.

A criminal conviction isn't a good thing to have - but it's unlikely to ruin your life. Here's something that I've put on another thread today:

Let's start with the very worst that could happen: the railway could take you to court. You could be convicted - that is, found guilty, and have to pay a fine, plus court costs, plus the prosecution costs. There would be some circumstances where you would have to declare the conviction to employers and potential employers and to organisations that you volunteered for.

And that's the worst that can happen. Rest assured that you will not be sent to prison. And I will say with only a little less certainty that you will not lose your job or have any difficulty in obtaining another one. From what we see here, almost all employers (and voluntary organisations) understand that not paying a railway fare correctly is a mistake that a lot of people make: it perhaps shows that your judgement isn't absolutely perfect, but that's how most people's judgement is. The point where employers and so on start to get worried is when someone covers up a conviction. That adds the problem of dishonesty to the initial problem of having a conviction for not having paid a train fare properly.

The same applies in your case. It is, I suppose, possible that the railway would seek to prosecute you for fraud rather than under the various laws to do with railway ticketing, but realistically that would only happen if you had been doing this for much, much longer than the last month leading to a substantial loss of income to the railway. And rather less fancifully, it's worth noting that some jobs in the City rely on trusting staff to successfully move money around and so require a very high level of trust: these jobs might well want to know about any prosecution and consider that any conviction for fare-dodging would be enough to lead to dismissal or not being recruited in the first place.

Can anyone advise when I might expect the train companies letter and what it might say and what the consequences might be?

As I understand it, it typically takes a few weeks for the railway to get in touch with you. You can only know that they're not going to be in touch after six months, as that's the length of time they have to choose to take you to court. You should also leave a month or so after the six months have passed in case the railway have chosen to go straight to court, and that will allow time for the court to write to you.

Typically, the railway (or their agents - many railway companies use an organisation called 'Transport Investigations Ltd') will write to you, possibly telling you that they are considering prosecution and asking if there is anything else you want to tell them. The advice we normally give at that point is that you should write briefly, honestly, politely and apologetically to tell them
- that you know what you did was wrong
- that you will not repeat it
- and that you would like to settle out of court such that the railway will not suffer financially: so you are willing to pay for any fares underpaid, and the costs that the railway has incurred.

The railway may then offer you a settlement: their costs are typically around £100 - £150 but if they have had to carry out extensive checks, then the costs could be higher.

Should I write to them now before their letter arrives and confess to the additional occurrences?

Practically speaking, no. Once the railway have written back to you, there will be a case reference to make sure that all your papers are kept together. The time to be in touch is when the railway has written to you.

 

[The DJ]

A criminal conviction isn't a good thing to have - but it's unlikely to ruin your life

I beg to differ. It can often result in you being refused entry to the United States irrespective of whether it is a first time visit or a return visit.

 

[RunawayTrain]

Hello all,

I have got myself in to trouble by acting stupidly and am hoping for some advise.

I commute to London from a station that does not have any ticket barriers.
I made a really bad decision (without any thought for the consequences), to buy tickets only from the nearest station to London, in an attempt to save money.
(I was buying online using an App, and printing at my home station)
I have never offended previously, I'm aware this is totally wrong and is something I deeply regret.

...

As described above, I told the officers this had happened before earlier in the week.
The truth is, that it has been going on for a month rather than a week.
I assume they will check themselves using CCTV and their ticketing records, and it may be worse for me if I keep quiet about this and am found out further down the line.
Should I write to them now before their letter arrives and confess to the additional occurrences?

I'm going to give my advice from a non-legal point of view, as there seems to be ample and often very good legal advice already on this forum. My advice would be to act in accordance with your values. You do admit you have stolen from the train operating carrier for a month. You say this is something you deeply regret. If this is the case (and I say this without judgment as I respect your right to your own values), then I would advise promptly admitting everything and then dealing with whatever comes back. No matter what the penalty (and others on here can inform on this better than I can), you will have done the right thing by yourself.

 

[furlong]

(I was buying online using an App, and printing at my home station)

They told me to stay there and waved over 2 undercover officers. They asked me where I had got on the train - They said would check CCTV, and seemed to know it was not the station I had on my ticket,

The information on the ticket tells them where and when it was printed, and of course they know the times of the trains.

and I said it has started that week.

Similarly they can easily find other tickets purchased and/or collected a similar way - that's a routine part of an investigation and they have systems to do that.

The truth is, that it has been going on for a month rather than a week.
I assume they will check themselves using CCTV and their ticketing records, and it may be worse for me if I keep quiet about this and am found out further down the line.

Indeed.

Can anyone advise when I might expect the train companies letter and what it might say and what the consequences might be?

That varies by train company - which London terminal / train company was this? Some are very willing to settle quickly out-of-court when you demonstrate you are genuinely contrite, while others take longer and prefer prosecutions. (The good news is that cases similar to yours that we've seen on the forum are nearly always settled without a prosecution. Basically, it's better for them to invest their limited resources trying to catch more cheats than spending additional time dealing with someone who's willing to make amends and is unlikely now to do it again.)

You'll need to pay the fares that you avoided. You'll then need to reimburse them their costs - these can sometimes be negotiated (varies by train company) and are partly under your control - if you cause them to spend a lot of hours investigating, searching CCTV to gather evidence to support a prosecution etc. you may end up paying more than if you tell them everything they need to know up front.

 

[QWERTYUIOP]

Thank you for all the comments.

I will voluntarily own up to the additional occasions, however I am still unsure if this is best done after their initial letter arrives, or if I should write to them now using the ref number and address on the mg11.

Writing now may save them some time and help my chances of them showing some leniency and being open to a settlement?

 

[Hadders]

I would wait until the letter arrives.

 

[Haywain]

I would wait until the letter arrives.

I agree with this.

 

[furlong]

SE is one that has been seen to negotiate on settlements - if they initially suggest an amount that feels excessive don't be afraid to query it and ask them how it is broken down. (It's a fine line but they cannot impose any penalty, but only recover their costs - in other words put themselves back into the same financial position as they would have been in had you not cheated.)

 

[greyman42]

I beg to differ. It can often result in you being refused entry to the United States irrespective of whether it is a first time visit or a return visit.

Even for minor offences?

 

[Bungle158]

I beg to differ. It can often result in you being refused entry to the United States irrespective of whether it is a first time visit or a return visit.

And the Schengen countries when the ETIAS scheme goes live. Not to mention Australia

Even for minor offences?

Moral turpitude is the term. Bilking would fall under it l think

 

[Tallguy]

I beg to differ. It can often result in you being refused entry to the United States irrespective of whether it is a first time visit or a return visit.

I’m no Lawyer but totally agree - a criminal record can cause you a lot of problems from job applications to car and house insurance renewal. if you apply to TFL You have to undertake a CRB check, as you do for many employers. I had to produce a CRB check just for temporary Xmas work with Royal Mail and needed one for a trip to ‘somewhere interesting North East of Dubai’ earlier this year.

Don’t underestimate what damage a criminal record can do to your life. Far better to settle out of court with the TOC And hopefully you will be offered this.

 

[Cdd89]

Even for minor offences?

I know someone who was recently refused ESTA (based on the “have you ever....” wording), and then refused a Visa (which is the surprising bit), for a declared count of cannabis possession dating back to the 80s.

 

[221129]

nd then refused a Visa (which is the surprising bit), for a declared count of cannabis possession dating back to the 80s.

That's not at all surprising to be honest.

Even for minor offences?

Yes, the Americans tend to be very picky about who they allow in.

 

[Tallguy]

Last time I applied for an ESTA it asked me if I had been arrested, even if I hadn’t been charged with an offence for USA entry.

 

[greyman42]

That's not at all surprising to be honest.


Yes, the Americans tend to be very picky about who they allow in.

Unless you are rich/famous/sportsman?

 

[SussexMan]

if you apply to TFL You have to undertake a CRB check, as you do for many employers.

I assume you are referring to a Basic DBS check which just lists unspent convictions, I very much doubt that you have do an Enhanced DBS check other than for a very few specific roles within TFL. Sadly, thousands of DBS checks are done illegally with employees not realising that they are outside the legislation. Of course querying it at the time you are being offered a job may not be easy.

And re the USA, on the basis that the USA authorities have no access to the UK criminal records database, I've often wondered what the implications would be if you just say "no".

 

[QWERTYUIOP]

Thanks all for the comments.
I think I will wait for the letter to arrive in the first instance and take it from there

 

[Tallguy]

I assume you are referring to a Basic DBS check which just lists unspent convictions, I very much doubt that you have do an Enhanced DBS check other than for a very few specific roles within TFL. Sadly, thousands of DBS checks are done illegally with employees not realising that they are outside the legislation. Of course querying it at the time you are being offered a job may not be easy.

And re the USA, on the basis that the USA authorities have no access to the UK criminal records database, I've often wondered what the implications would be if you just say "no".

yes I meant a basic DBS check from an organisation such as Disclosure Scotland. I also went through the more thorough check For my trip to the Middle East. On every occasion I was going to have a check run against me I was told about it by the employer.

I’ve never been arrested etc but have often wondered if the USA, Oz etc can access UK criminal records to see if you are lying. Certainly Oz can access New Zealand records and vice versa But they share a common travel area etc.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I would start saving for an out of court settlement - if SE show leniency that is

 

[Trackman]

Unless you are rich/famous/sportsman?

True.
I know someone quite famous, they did time about 40 years ago.
The only country where they will not let them in is Russia!

Back OT, at least the OP told the truth there and then.

 

[Applepie356]

They must have had one hell of a hunch to assume that you were short-ticketing them.
Not to mention you have now opened up a can of worms by saying you did it the past week, they will likely do an investigation which will likely translate into bigger costs for you.

 

[Kite159]

They must have had one hell of a hunch to assume that you were short-ticketing them.
Not to mention you have now opened up a can of worms by saying you did it the past week, they will likely do an investigation which will likely translate into bigger costs for you.

Maybe they simply had a block on tickets from Stratford International and saw the time the ticket was printed was earlier than it would have been expected (can someone tell from the numbers at the bottom of the ticket where it was printed off?).

 

[Haywain]

can someone tell from the numbers at the bottom of the ticket where it was printed off?

Yes, quite easily.

 

[QWERTYUIOP]

I think this is exactly what happened.
The first thing the officer did was look at when the ticket was printed

Maybe they simply had a block on tickets from Stratford International and saw the time the ticket was printed was earlier than it would have been expected (can someone tell from the numbers at the bottom of the ticket where it was printed off?)

 

[island]

(It's a fine line but they cannot impose any penalty, but only recover their costs - in other words put themselves back into the same financial position as they would have been in had you not cheated.)

I do not believe this to be accurate. The TOC may request any settlement it wishes, and if the offender chooses not to accept and pay the settlement, the matter proceeds to court. Notably, they may request a contribution to the costs of detecting and pursuing offenders, over and above the avoided fares.

 

[MotCO]

The other thing to add is for the OP to confirm that they gave their correct contact details (is this on the MG11?) to ensure any post goes to the correct address; if they are thinking of moving house, please ensure you set up a post redirection arrangement with the Royal Mail.

 

[furlong]

I do not believe this to be accurate. The TOC may request any settlement it wishes, and if the offender chooses not to accept and pay the settlement, the matter proceeds to court. Notably, they may request a contribution to the costs of detecting and pursuing offenders, over and above the avoided fares.

I maintain that the companies are walking a tightrope - both parties need the certainty that the courts will enforce such an out-of-court settlement. The passenger needs the certainty that, having compensated the company to put it back into the position it would have been in had the incident not occurred, the company won't change its mind - still go ahead with the prosecution whether keeping the money or returning it - and that another party (e.g. BTP or a different train company involved) cannot prosecute successfully ('abuse of process'). On the other hand, the company needs the certainty that if, after 6 months the passenger claims the agreement is unenforceable as a matter of public policy (only a court can impose a penalty under the criminal law and any such money belongs to the public purse) and the passenger takes it to the small claims court (for example), the court will uphold the agreement and not order the return of the money at a time when it is then too late to commence a prosecution. There is also a regulatory angle in that the company has to abide by its agreements with the government which tightly control its activities and determine the only ways in which it can impose penalties on passengers (e.g. Penalty Fares) - and this is not one of those ways.

Now take your scenario - say the passenger refuses to accept a settlement because it goes noticeably beyond putting the company back into the position it would have been in had the passenger done the right thing and the company refuses to accept a lower but justifiable amount. In court, the company is only going to be able to obtain the lower amount (and there's a victim's surcharge, not a donation towards the costs of pursuing other offenders!). If it proceeds to court the defendant explains how the case is only taking up the court's time because the company's settlement offer was unreasonable and invites it to conclude that the company is wasting the court's time and misusing its powers (the public policy and regulatory arguments) and rule accordingly (at the very least making the company bear all the costs of the unnecessary action). In other words, it's a risky strategy for the company which might end up out-of-pocket even if it does obtain the conviction it is seeking.

 

[island]

I think all of that is highly speculative and not supported in case law. It would probably be best to take any further discussion into a separate thread, however, to avoid distracting from the OP’s case.