Michael Gove wants to take us back in time with rubbish disposal

[pemma]

Yes, either way is suitable. And in response to your repeated rants that it’s a tax - it’s a deposit on the bottle. Who says it’ll be two miles? You may as well be asking ‘well what happens if aliens land the night before I return my bottles and the world is burnt to a crisp - how on earth would I get my deposit back?!’

I personally don’t think it’s unresonable? Or is this just another thing to rant at because ‘some politician is judging me to do the right thing rather than trash the worlds oceans?!’

2 miles is just an example, it could be more or it could be less but suggesting in a hypothetical example Rose lives 1 mile from her friend and not in the same direction her friend would go to get to the supermarket anyway is an entirely realistic scenario. My local council is withdrawing many bus subsides at the end of this week, I've heard what older people will have to do instead. My scenario is based on the real world, you've come with the most crazy and unlikely scenario possible because you don't agree with free kerbside recycling and have the opinion that it harms the oceans.

 

[BRX]

But recycling bins are for recycling, not reusing. As others have said, reuse is better than recycle. My recycle bin is usually very full. Removing a proportion of the glass and plastic that goes into it would be a positive.

 

[pemma]

I think one of the biggest issues is that home recycling is inconsistent across the country. Here we have five receptacles for waste (each collection is fortnightly):
1) Pink bin for plastic and metal "recyclables"*
2) Blue bin for paper
3) Brown bin for garden and food waste
4) Orange box for glass
5) Green bin for all other general household stuff that doesn't go anywhere else.

The amount that goes in the Green, general bin has decreased significantly. That is to be expected as we recycle more and send less to landfill. The amount going in the pink bin has gone up quite considerably, while we put the glass box out once a month these days.

We used to have a black bin for general waste, a green bin for garden waste, a reusable clear bag for cardboard, a reusable white bag for paper and a green box for metals and glass. Then when they started kerbside plastic recycling we got light grey bins for all recyclable waste.

 

[pemma]

But recycling bins are for recycling, not reusing. As others have said, reuse is better than recycle. My recycle bin is usually very full. Removing a proportion of the glass and plastic that goes into it would be a positive.

The new scheme only applies to 'single use' bottles. As mentioned already glass milk bottles which are to be collected and sterilised prior to reuse aren't covered, so presumably if Lucozade switch to glass bottles which are intended to be collected and sterilised they don't have to put a deposit on them but if they continue to use plastic bottles which can't be used again they do. That makes absolutely no sense!

 

[pemma]

I mean if theyre able to go out and purchase plastic bottled products then im sure they can easily return them dont you think? If you had followed the story a bit more then you will find that you wont have to go to a recycling centre as there will be 'Return' places at large supermarkets and other places as is the case in the other 40 odd countries that currently run a similar projects.

I was basing my scenario on that. Hence, I said Rose's friend would have to drive extra mileage to go to Rose's house before going shopping to collect the empties and then back again afterwards to drop off the shopping. And what about those who travel by bus (regardless of age) to go shopping? Are they supposed to go to the supermarket first to drop off their empties, then do other things they need to do in town, then go back to the supermarket to do their shopping, or are they supposed to carry their empties around with them for an hour while they do other things like go in the bank, go in the chemists etc.?

a good thing - though the councils will still have to pick up paper/cardboard and garden waste and hopefully will see companies like coke et al to use more recycled product in their bottles as they still use large amounts of fresh plastic which in itself is highly damaging to the environment - are you saying thats a bad thing because you may lose the ability to use kerbside recycling?

Yes I'm saying if kerbside recycling goes altogether and more paper and cardboard ends up going in general waste bins it would be a bad thing. Why would it be a good thing for the environment?

 

[EM2]

That's my point. If you continue to dispose of items in your recycling bin you'll lose the deposits so it's effectively a tax for using kerbside recycling. It's also interesting to note some are questioning whether kerbside recycling might be withdrawn altogether as if you remove plastic and glass from it then it becomes a lot less viable for local councils to do.

If all councils had the same policies then you might have a point, but things aren't equal anyway.
I can't recycle glass in my kerbside bin, I still have to visit a bottle bank or the local tip.

 

[pemma]

If all councils had the same policies then you might have a point, but things aren't equal anyway.
I can't recycle glass in my kerbside bin, I still have to visit a bottle bank or the local tip.

Well yes consistent recycling facilities would be nice. However, it's worth remembering in some areas there's more demand for recycled materials than others and what type of waste we have varies between areas so some differences are understandable.

 

[Clip]

I was basing my scenario on that. Hence, I said Rose's friend would have to drive extra mileage to go to Rose's house before going shopping to collect the empties and then back again afterwards to drop off the shopping. And what about those who travel by bus (regardless of age) to go shopping? Are they supposed to go to the supermarket first to drop off their empties, then do other things they need to do in town, then go back to the supermarket to do their shopping, or are they supposed to carry their empties around with them for an hour while they do other things like go in the bank, go in the chemists etc.?



Yes I'm saying if kerbside recycling goes altogether and more paper and cardboard ends up going in general waste bins it would be a bad thing. Why would it be a good thing for the environment?

Old people managed it years ago when we had a deposit scheme why cant they do it now?

I never saw any example about rose so ive no idea what you are on about but you really are clutching at straws here for some unknown reason.

 

[SS4]

I don't see anything wrong with this. From my experience in Germany having a reverse vending machine in which you put in your bottle(s) and get the deposit on a receipt which can then be used as a voucher.

I'd rather not see this done as part of council recycling unless it can be done together with the other recycling as I'm concerned about the environmental benefits of putting extra lorries on the road to save plastic.

Few people are going to make additional shopping trips just to deposit their bottles so it's not like any additional journeys will be made but the problem I see is that shops will be too stingy to put in the proper machines and it'll cause congestion or be out of order.

 

[pemma]

I'd rather not see this done as part of council recycling unless it can be done together with the other recycling as I'm concerned about the environmental benefits of putting extra lorries on the road to save plastic.

Surely in areas where all recyclable rubbish goes in to one bin it's introducing the recycling vending machines that will put extra lorries on the road as they will supplement the existing lorries operated by or on behalf of the council, rather than replace them. Also is there a guarantee that all recycling vending machines will be emptied by the same lorry to reduce the number of vehicles on the road and we won't have Sainsburys having a contract with one company, Tesco with another, Asda with a third etc. (like currently exists with business waste) which would result in a very unenvironmentally friendly way of emptying the machines.

 

[HSTEd]

A far cheaper and easier way of reducing the use plastic bottles is to simply subsidise glass bottles.

But thats not a tax on time-poor working people that doesn't have to be paid by pensioners who have all the time in the world to take all their recycling back t o the shop by hand. So that is not the idea the Government is going to adopt.

Ofcourse in many cases this will now result in a special trip to the shop to drop off the recycling since increasingly large number of people have their groceries delivered anyway.

 

[Mojo]

My local council has just introduced a green tax of it’s own. I am now expected to pay a charge of £75 to dispose of garden waste in an environmentally friendly manner whereas previously it was collected every week free of charge. As I rent my house it is not feasible for me to invest in a compost bin (and even if I did it would be full up after the first week of autumn with leaves - none of which come from my own property), so they have to go in the black bin.

 

[mmh]

A far cheaper and easier way of reducing the use plastic bottles is to simply subsidise glass bottles.

But thats not a tax on time-poor working people that doesn't have to be paid by pensioners who have all the time in the world to take all their recycling back t o the shop by hand. So that is not the idea the Government is going to adopt.

Ofcourse in many cases this will now result in a special trip to the shop to drop off the recycling since increasingly large number of people have their groceries delivered anyway.

The delivery van could take the returns and the delivery driver's terminal process the deposit. That might be simpler and cheaper for the supermarkets to implement than in-store returns (although they'd have to do those too of course)

 

[mmh]

In the case of old Rose it might be she phones up her friends to ask her to get some items as she's unable to do it herself. So is Rose's friend supposed to drive an extra 2 miles to collect the empty bottles on her way to the supermarket or is she supposed to take them with her afterwards and store them at her house until next time she does shopping for Rose?

2 miles is just an example, it could be more or it could be less but suggesting in a hypothetical example Rose lives 1 mile from her friend and not in the same direction her friend would go to get to the supermarket anyway is an entirely realistic scenario. My local council is withdrawing many bus subsides at the end of this week, I've heard what older people will have to do instead. My scenario is based on the real world, you've come with the most crazy and unlikely scenario possible because you don't agree with free kerbside recycling and have the opinion that it harms the oceans.

Rose's friend must be a little odd, if they're willing to drive over 2 miles, do shopping for her but refuse to take some empty bottles from her.

 

[StoneRoad]

Quite a significant proportion of the plastic that goes in our (mixed) re-cycling bin is not plastic bottles ...

In another area I visit frequently, the kerbside collection is divided into three (paper/card;plastic;tins) and the local car park has bottle and clothes banks. There are also brown food & garden waste bins, which are not used - there is a compost heap and wormery instead

 

[Baxenden Bank]

My local council has just introduced a green tax of it’s own. I am now expected to pay a charge of £75 to dispose of garden waste in an environmentally friendly manner whereas previously it was collected every week free of charge. As I rent my house it is not feasible for me to invest in a compost bin (and even if I did it would be full up after the first week of autumn with leaves - none of which come from my own property), so they have to go in the black bin.

Is that £75 per year or per collection? Both seem rather expensive anyway. I used to have to pay for heavy-duty paper sacks but that stopped when wheelie bins were introduced.

One problem is the need councils now have to raise cash by any means possible e.g. ever increasing parking charges (or for on-street permits). The desire to introduce a charge is greater than the desire for it to be seen to be acting reasonably. Combine this with the vague definitions which apply to waste collection and I can see many similar charges being introduced. The law says a council (technically the Waste Collection Authority - depends whether you are unitary or not - districts collect, counties dispose) must collect your household waste, but does not define what, how or when - hence their ability to move to fortnightly, three-weekly and now monthly collections. They could move to annual collections if they chose to! Similarly the definition of household waste is lax - does that include garden waste, DIY materials etc. - hence the charge you now face. Some councils pursue people for putting the wrong things in the wrong collection boxes - not simply contaminating re-cycleables with non re-cycleables (which should be acted upon) but pursuing people who put re-cycleables into the residual waste bin. So, be warned, they may come after you for putting leaves into the residual waste bin instead of paying their £75 charge (or arranging other means of disposal). Locally Staffordshire councils have clamped down on building waste - my friend was trying to dispose of a replaced bathroom sink (replaced by himself not a plumber) at the bulky household waste disposal centre and had to pay for the privilege.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Quite a significant proportion of the plastic that goes in our (mixed) re-cycling bin is not plastic bottles ...

In another area I visit frequently, the kerbside collection is divided into three (paper/card;plastic;tins) and the local car park has bottle and clothes banks. There are also brown food & garden waste bins, which are not used - there is a compost heap and wormery instead

Deposits on ready-meal trays, deposits on yoghurt pots, deposits on shampoo bottles. Whatever next.

 

[Mojo]

Is that £75 per year or per collection?

Per year.

I would be more than happy with monthly collections if they collected garden waste too. Aside from my garden waste our black bin goes out every fortnight with a half full black sack in it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One problem is the need councils now have to raise cash by any means possible e.g. ever increasing parking charges (or for on-street permits). The desire to introduce a charge is greater than the desire for it to be seen to be acting reasonably.

And that is because of capping, which is an affront to democracy and needs to be scrapped. Council Tax levels should be set by those who are elected to represent us locally, not national Government.

 

[Welly]

Unfortunately, the Govt. seem reluctant to do anything about one of the biggest source of waste plastic - the large plastic sacks pushed through letterboxes with monotonous regularity by charities (real or pretend), despite a notice asking them not to do so. How they expect people to fill several sacks per month is beyond my comprehension.

We use these sacks to line the kitchen bin.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Will the proposed tax / deposit scheme reduce my plastic bottle use?
No, not unless things which I presently buy in plastic bottles come in glass bottles instead, or unless the cost of the product goes up but it is a tax rather than a returnable deposit.
Will the proposed tax increase the amount of plastic bottles that I re-use?
No, I already re-use before disposal.
Will the proposed tax reduce the amount I plastic bottles I put into the oceans?
No, I already re-cycle wherever possible and where no facility is reasonably available I put it into council roadside bins. Is the council disposing of that rubbish responsibly by sorting and re-cycling? None of my bottles should be anywhere near the oceans.
Will the proposed tax increase the proportion of my plastic bottle waste being re-cycled compared to ordinary bin disposal?
Possibly.

 

[Mojo]

We use these sacks to line the kitchen bin.

They don’t have these in London but we get them from family and do the same.

We take all our clothes to the shop that offers cash for old textiles, something like 50p a kilogram, may be a little more don’t remember now.

Will the proposed tax / deposit scheme reduce my plastic bottle use?
No, not unless things which I presently buy in plastic bottles come in glass bottles instead, or unless the cost of the product goes up but it is a tax rather than a returnable deposit.
Will the proposed tax increase the amount of plastic bottles that I re-use?
No, I already re-use before disposal.
Will the proposed tax reduce the amount I plastic bottles I put into the oceans?
No, I already re-cycle wherever possible and where no facility is reasonably available I put it into council roadside bins. Is the council disposing of that rubbish responsibly by sorting and re-cycling? None of my bottles should be anywhere near the oceans.
Will the proposed tax increase the proportion of my plastic bottle waste being re-cycled compared to ordinary bin disposal?
Possibly.

Same here; it will just cause us a headache in having to store the bottles at home somewhere (or maybe lug it around with me for days on end if I buy a “Meal deal” whilst out and about) and take them somewhere to get my money back; wherever that may be.

 

[pemma]

Rose's friend must be a little odd, if they're willing to drive over 2 miles, do shopping for her but refuse to take some empty bottles from her.

You're misunderstanding. Rose lives, say 3 miles, from the supermarket, her friend lives 2 miles from the supermarket so:
- If Rose's friend just does her own shopping, that's 4 miles of driving.
- If Rose's friend does her own shopping plus Rose's, that's 6 miles of driving (she has to drop the shopping off at Rose's but doesn't have to go to Rose's first.)
- If Rose's friend goes to pick up Rose's empties then drives to the supermarket, then drives back to Rose's to drop off the shopping, then back to her own house that's 8 miles of driving.

And this is supposed to be a 'green solution'!

You could say Rose's friend could pick up the empties after shopping and take them next time but that presume's her friend has somewhere to store them or the Rose doesn't have many friends doing shopping for her who take it in turns.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

And that is because of capping, which is an affront to democracy and needs to be scrapped. Council Tax levels should be set by those who are elected to represent us locally, not national Government.

You don't really want that, do you?

My council tax was going up by three or four times the rate of inflation before the current controls were put in place. Only after all these years of zero / minimal annual increases have the past excessive increases been caught up with by inflation.

 

[NSEFAN]

You're misunderstanding. Rose lives, say 3 miles, from the supermarket, her friend lives 2 miles from the supermarket so:
- If Rose's friend just does her own shopping, that's 4 miles of driving.
- If Rose's friend does her own shopping plus Rose's, that's 6 miles of driving (she has to drop the shopping off at Rose's but doesn't have to go to Rose's first.)
- If Rose's friend goes to pick up Rose's empties then drives to the supermarket, then drives back to Rose's to drop off the shopping, then back to her own house that's 8 miles of driving.

And this is supposed to be a 'green solution'!

You could say Rose's friend could pick up the empties after shopping and take them next time but that presume's her friend has somewhere to store them or the Rose doesn't have many friends doing shopping for her who take it in turns.

Given that the people in this scenario would be driving to the shop anyway for their weekly shopping, why is it a problem to take empty bottles with them? Is it really going to be an issue to store a few plastic bottles over the course of the week?

 

[mmh]

You're misunderstanding. Rose lives, say 3 miles, from the supermarket, her friend lives 2 miles from the supermarket so:
- If Rose's friend just does her own shopping, that's 4 miles of driving.
- If Rose's friend does her own shopping plus Rose's, that's 6 miles of driving (she has to drop the shopping off at Rose's but doesn't have to go to Rose's first.)
- If Rose's friend goes to pick up Rose's empties then drives to the supermarket, then drives back to Rose's to drop off the shopping, then back to her own house that's 8 miles of driving.

And this is supposed to be a 'green solution'!

You could say Rose's friend could pick up the empties after shopping and take them next time but that presume's her friend has somewhere to store them or the Rose doesn't have many friends doing shopping for her who take it in turns.

Given that the people in this scenario would be driving to the shop anyway for their weekly shopping, why is it a problem to take empty bottles with them? Is it really going to be an issue to store a few plastic bottles over the course of the week?

I'm struggling to understand how someone who can deliver shopping and bottles to Rose by car doesn't have somewhere to store a few empty bottles - their boot, surely?

 

[pemma]

I'm struggling to understand how someone who can deliver shopping and bottles to Rose by car doesn't have somewhere to store a few empty bottles - their boot, surely?

So a boot on a car is only ever used for shopping and wouldn't be needed for anything else between shopping trips? :roll: Do you have a special car for shopping or do you not get out much?

 

[pemma]

Given that the people in this scenario would be driving to the shop anyway for their weekly shopping, why is it a problem to take empty bottles with them? Is it really going to be an issue to store a few plastic bottles over the course of the week?

Part of the reason many areas have recycling bins (stored outside the house) opposed to containers inside the house was due to people complaining they didn't have space inside their house to store everything for recycling between collections.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Given that the people in this scenario would be driving to the shop anyway for their weekly shopping, why is it a problem to take empty bottles with them? Is it really going to be an issue to store a few plastic bottles over the course of the week?

I can't be bothered working out Roses' complicated shopping arrangements but not everyone does a simple 'home to shop to home' big weekly shop, by car, where the bottles simply go in the boot.

For example, I always used to do my grocery shopping on the way home from work, by bus then walk home, not by car. Would I in future take a bagful of bottles on my morning commute, leave them clogging up the workplace all day (where they even removed the coatracks to cram more desks in - assuming everyone drove and therefore didn't wear a coat), then take them to the supermarket on the way home? Even now I often shop on the way home from somewhere rather than a specific trip.

I don't fancy the idea of taking my bottles to Tesco and finding that the deposit-returning machine is broken or full. The present re-cycling bins (clothes, paper that I use plus others) are often full and spilling contents all-over the car park. So I have to carry them all home in addition to my shopping or I abandon them in the vicinity of the machine and lose my deposit! Plus I have to buy new carrier bags because the ones I was going to use remain full of plastic bottles!

 

[mmh]

So a boot on a car is only ever used for shopping and wouldn't be needed for anything else between shopping trips? :roll: Do you have a special car for shopping or do you not get out much?

Perhaps I'm unusual by not thinking it's uncommon for a boot to not be empty and have random stuff in it,
but thinking it is reasonably rare to need to fill your boot to the extent a carrier bag with some bottles in it would take up too much space.

I think as hypothetical scenarios go, this one might be getting just a bit too hypothetical now, mind