Michael Gove wants to take us back in time with rubbish disposal

[Clip]

If anyone on this forum still thinks this is a bad idea then take a look at this video and then come back and tell me that we shouldnt be doing all we can to stop plastics from getting into our oceans

For those visually impaired they tell you about it on the video but it shows a large swathe of the carribean sea covered in plastic that is quite dense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Notwithstanding that I think it is a good idea, I'm not clear how it gets from landfill to the sea...is it more likely that much of that found its way into the sea by falling off garbage ships?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

If anyone on this forum still thinks this is a bad idea then take a look at this video and then come back and tell me that we shouldnt be doing all we can to stop plastics from getting into our oceans

For those visually impaired they tell you about it on the video but it shows a large swathe of the carribean sea covered in plastic that is quite dense.

And the proposed single use plastic bottle tax in UK / GB / England will assist in clearing that problem?

 

[Clip]

And the proposed single use plastic bottle tax in UK / GB / England will assist in clearing that problem?

You misunderstand what the tax is for - its to promote more recycling of plastic bottles which in turn will stop our bottles from going to landfill. The video itself is used as a reminder of the damage that happens - and just because it doesn't happen off our shores doesnt mean that we havent contributed to it and nor does it mean we can ignore the damage to the oceans that plastics do.

If you think that is a bad thing then please explain why?

13 billion bottles sold in the uk and only 3 million being recycled. Why is this so hard for people to understand that more must be done and that this is one way to start doing that

 

[Tetchytyke]

Just watched the cleaner at my local Metro station empty the normal wastebin and the recycling wastebin into the same black bin liner.

I think local councils still have a bit of work to do

 

[Baxenden Bank]

You misunderstand what the tax is for - its to promote more recycling of plastic bottles which in turn will stop our bottles from going to landfill. The video itself is used as a reminder of the damage that happens - and just because it doesn't happen off our shores doesnt mean that we havent contributed to it and nor does it mean we can ignore the damage to the oceans that plastics do.

If you think that is a bad thing then please explain why?

13 billion bottles sold in the uk and only 3 million being recycled. Why is this so hard for people to understand that more must be done and that this is one way to start doing that

It is bad because it is a knee-jerk reaction to a small part of the overall problem as a result of high-profile pressure group activity. Addressing a minor part of the problem will have negligible effect. A bit like banning coal-burning power stations in the UK whilst China builds significantly more capacity each year. Look at the investment in coal extraction (and their associated rail/port infrastructure) in countries like Mozambique and Australia.

A bit like me walking to the supermarket to cut CO2 emissions whilst massively increasing flights to cater for weekend stag do's to Europe. Remind me, how many zillion plastic carrier bags equate to a single trans-atlantic flight? What are the respective taxes on carrier bags and air passengers per chunk of planet saved?

If you want to 'save the planet' deal with the issues that cause the greatest problems, not those where a politician can claim brownie points being 'seen to be doing something' whilst in reality fiddling whilst Rome burns.

Every journey may well begin with one small step, but the small step is only important if you actually intend to continue that journey, rather than stopping after the first couple of steps.

What is the purpose of the proposed 'single use plastic bottle levy'?
To reduce plastic bottle use, or to reduce bottle use of all kinds?
To reduce plastic bottles ending up in landfill, or to reduce landfill volumes of all kinds?
To reduce plastic bottles being incinerated, or to reduce volumes of waste incinerated overall?
To reduce plastic waste in oceans, or to reduce overall waste in oceans?

What about all the other plastic products which end up in landfill / incinerators / across the countryside or in oceans?

If plastic is replaced by another material, will that simply end up in exactly the same places causing much the same problems? Wax cardboard disposable cups, glass bottles and metal cans seem to be just as prolific in roadside verges as plastic bottles. I predict a shift from plastic to wax-cardboard as containers for disposable drinks - hardly a sustainable solution.

Want to stop plastic bottles ending up in the ocean - then ban plastic bottles. The world seemed to manage without them only a few years ago. Milk came in glass bottles and they were widely reused - NOT RECYCLED. Far better. As did pop, beer and many other products. Someone mentioned above their experience at a bar where Holsten Pils bottles had a deposit on them, so they were separated out and reused. Others didn't have a deposit so just got co-mingled and hopefully at least re-cycled into lower grade new glass. Why not introduce a compulsory levy on glass bottles?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Just watched the cleaner at my local Metro station empty the normal wastebin and the recycling wastebin into the same black bin liner.

I think local councils still have a bit of work to do

Which is why a lot of people say 'why bother?', when they see this happening on a daily basis. Perhaps the material is sorted at a later point in time - but that needs to be communicated. But if it is separated later, why have two bins in the first place? Perhaps, as I have seen on many stations with separate bins, people simply don't understand the system so stick the wrong items in the wrong bin.

As with household waste collection, would it actually be more effective to separate out the different waste streams at a depot rather than have a proliferation on bins of various colours and sizes clogging up the high street (or my back garden)? But that would require co-ordinated investment across the waste/recycling industry. Ain't gonna happen as they are a bunch minimum price / minimum investment cowboys.

 

[Clip]

It is bad because it is a knee-jerk reaction to a small part of the overall problem as a result of high-profile pressure group activity. Addressing a minor part of the problem will have negligible effect.

Im sorry but do you really expect me to reply to you fully when you appear so ignorant of the facts which i have stated above.

Let me refresh your memory for you and then you tell me that its a minor part of the problem.

13 Billion plastic bottles are used every year in this country. Only 3 Billion are recycled.

That,sir, in the nicest possible way is a massive problem and if you dont get that and if anyone else does not get that then YOU are also part of the problem.

Just watched the cleaner at my local Metro station empty the normal wastebin and the recycling wastebin into the same black bin liner.

I think local councils still have a bit of work to do

I think youll find - as i have mentioned before - that this goes off as mixed recyclables and is sorted at the site itself by hand and magnets as it is easier to do so as the vast majority of station waste will be cans cups and newspapers - maybe you still have a bit of work to do on your understanding of how things work,eh?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As with household waste collection, would it actually be more effective to separate out the different waste streams at a depot rather than have a proliferation on bins of various colours and sizes clogging up the high street (or my back garden)? But that would require co-ordinated investment across the waste/recycling industry. Ain't gonna happen as they are a bunch minimum price / minimum investment cowboys.

MK actually does sort the black sacks, though they ask you to separate dry packaging/paper etc from other stuff to make their life easier, and having two bins in the kitchen is hardly onerous.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think youll find - as i have mentioned before - that this goes off as mixed recyclables and is sorted at the site itself by hand and magnets as it is easier to do so as the vast majority of station waste will be cans cups and newspapers - maybe you still have a bit of work to do on your understanding of how things work,eh?

Hmm. Round here it goes in the back of a council wire-panel van. I'm sure some refuse collection companies do sort it manually and with magnets. I'm not sure the council's overall contractor does that. They certainly don't for household waste: woe betide anyone who puts something in the wrong bin!

It also rather begs the question of why bother putting special recycling bins up, if it all goes to the same place in the same bin liner?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

13 Billion plastic bottles are used every year in this country. Only 3 Billion are recycled.

Please provide a source for your statistic.

According to The Independent, on 7 February 2018:
"Britain re-cycles just over 50% of the plastic bottles used, compared to 97% in Norway".

3 billion, you previously said 3 million. 3m out of 13bn would be shocking. 3bn out of 13bn is better but still nowhere near the 50% reported in The Independent.

From recylcenow.com

It is estimated that an average of 35.8 million plastic bottles are used EVERY DAY in the UK, but only 19.8 million are recycled each day. This means there are on average 16 million plastic bottles a day not making their way into the recycling bin.

That is much the same as The Independent. The site is presented by WRAP, The Waste and Resources Action Programme a registered UK Charity No. 1159512

 

[Baxenden Bank]

An interesting article:

The climate mitigation gap: education and government recommendations miss the most effective individual actions

Environmental Research Letters
Seth Wynes and Kimberly A Nicholas 2017 Environ. Res. Lett. 12 074024

Lund University, Centre for Sustainability Studies, PO Box 170, Lund SE-221 00, Sweden
University of British Columbia, The Department of Geography, Vancouver Campus, 1984 West Mall, Vancouver, BC, V6T 1Z2, Canada

We recommend four widely applicable high-impact (i.e. low emissions) actions with the potential to contribute to systemic change and substantially reduce annual personal emissions:

· having one fewer child (an average for developed countries of 58.6 tonnes CO2-equivalent (tCO2e) emission reductions per year),

· living car-free (2.4 tCO2e saved per year),

· avoiding airplane travel (1.6 tCO2e saved per roundtrip transatlantic flight) and,

· eating a plant-based diet (0.8 tCO2e saved per year).

tCO2e means tonnes of CO2 equivalent.

These actions have much greater potential to reduce emissions than commonly promoted strategies like comprehensive recycling (four times less effective than a plant-based diet) or changing household lightbulbs (eight times less).

Actions recommended in government documents to reduce an individual’s greenhouse gas emissions. Results are from four government sources: ‘Take Action’ from Australia (Department of Industry and Science 2014), ‘Top 10 Things You Can Do To Help’ from Canada (Government of Canada 2012), ‘Climate Action’ from the European Union (European Commission, 2015) and ‘What You Can Do’ from the United States (EPA 2015).

Behaviour / Impact

One fewer child / 23,700 to 117,700 kg of CO2 equivalent per year

Live car free / 1,000 to 5,300 kg of CO2 equivalent per year

Avoid one flight (depending on length) / 700 to 2,800 kg of CO2 equivalent per year

Purchase green energy / <100 to 2,500 kg of CO2 equivalent per year

Eat a plant-based diet / 300 to 1,600 kg of CO2 equivalent per year

Reduce food waste to nil waste / 370 kg of CO2 equivalent per year

Recycle / 210 kg of CO2 equivalent per year

Use reusable shopping bag / 5kg of CO2 equivalent per year

In order to meet the 2050 2°C climate target requires an annual personal emission of 2.1 tonnes of CO2 equivalent per year (or less).

 

[Clip]

Good - I hope this motion passes

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45353073

The plastic bag fee could be rising to 10p - with all shops in England having to charge.

Since October 2015, customers have had to pay at least 5p for each single-use bag, with all retailers employing more than 250 people made to take part in the scheme.

But now it might be extended to all shops with the charge set at 10p, Prime Minister Theresa May has announced.

The change is part of the government's plan to tackle plastic pollution.

Currently, it is estimated that more than three billion bags are supplied by small and medium companies every year.

In Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, smaller retailers already charge for plastic bags.

• Reality Check: Where does the plastic bag charge go?
• Could this biodegradable bag cut pollution?
• Seven charts that sum up the plastic problem

Mrs May said: "We have taken huge strides to improve the environment, and the charge on plastic bags in supermarkets and big retailers has demonstrated the difference we can achieve by making small changes to our everyday habits.

"I want to leave a greener, healthier environment for future generations, but with plastic in the sea still set to treble we know we need to do more to better protect our oceans and eliminate this harmful waste."

Campaigners say single use plastic bags take 1,000 years to break down and can be extremely damaging to marine wildlife.

What's happened since the charge was introduced?
The number of single-use plastic carrier bags handed out by supermarkets in England has drastically decreased.

In 2014 - before the charge was introduced - the seven main retailers (Asda, Marks & Spencer, Morrisons, Sainsbury's, The Co-Operative Group, Tesco and Waitrose) handed out the equivalent of 140 plastic bags per person.

In 2016-17, that fell to 24 bags, falling further to 19 bags in 2017-18.

Since the fee was introduced, the number of disposable carrier bags given out by the seven biggest supermarket chains has decreased by 86% overall, according to official figures. In total, 13 billion plastic bags have been taken out of circulation in the past two years.

 

[pemma]

Good - I hope this motion passes

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45353073

I think the intention is to make 'single use' plastic bags unattractive so that shops scrap the 'single use' ones and focus on reusable ones. Ironically carrier bags were strong in the 1990s but then they started to cut costs and make them bio gradable which resulted in them becoming less reusable and people getting new bags every time and using the old ones for things like lining bins.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the intention is to make 'single use' plastic bags unattractive so that shops scrap the 'single use' ones and focus on reusable ones. Ironically carrier bags were strong in the 1990s but then they started to cut costs and make them bio gradable which resulted in them becoming less reusable and people getting new bags every time and using the old ones for things like lining bins.

Most already have.

 

[tony_mac]

Most already have.

And I think it's a mistake - if I forget my bags, or buy things that won't fit, then I have to buy a 'reusabale' bag and end up throwing it away. That means I now waste about 15x more plastic than I did before they stopped selling them.
Even if they were the same price, I would still like to choose a disposable bag.

 

[pemma]

And I think it's a mistake - if I forget my bags, or buy things that won't fit, then I have to buy a 'reusabale' bag and end up throwing it away.

Why do throw away the reusable bag?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I think it's a mistake - if I forget my bags, or buy things that won't fit, then I have to buy a 'reusabale' bag and end up throwing it away. That means I now waste about 15x more plastic than I did before they stopped selling them.
Even if they were the same price, I would still like to choose a disposable bag.

Don't throw it away, then. Keep it for use later, even if you use it as a bin liner before it gets thrown away.

If you genuinely use 15 times more plastic than you did before they stopped selling them, though, perhaps you need to reconsider your habits and carry a reusable bag more frequently. This is the whole idea of the charges; while it's called a "bag tax" it is in fact not a tax as the Government doesn't take any money from it (other than *possibly* a piffling little amount of VAT).

That said, I think it might not be a *bad* idea for shops like M&S Food, where you tend to need a bag to keep dirty wrappers together until you can find a bin (it's not feasible to carry around a used yogurt pot on its own, for instance), to introduce lightweight, unbleached, biodegradable paper bags for that purpose. Not having that option will only increase littering.

 

[DarloRich]

MK Council have recently opened a combined recycling and power from waste station. They claim to landfill only 3% of waste. Details on the Milton Keynes Waste Recovery Park can be found here: https://wasteservices.amey.co.uk/where-we-work/milton-keynes/about-us/ & https://wasteservices.amey.co.uk/wh...chnology-overview/advanced-thermal-treatment/

MK council run a fantastic recycling scheme. It should really be the basis of a nationwide standard. It is so easy and seems to work very well and is collected every week. The food/green waste recycling is such a bonus. It really cuts down on your black sack waste. The two things I wish they could take to recycle are kitchen towel and those film lids you often get on plastic containers.

Don't throw it away, then. Keep it for use later, even if you use it as a bin liner before it gets thrown away.

I do that with any single use bags I have to buy - they line the food waste bin so i don't have to clean it!

 

[Clip]

Don't throw it away, then. Keep it for use later, even if you use it as a bin liner before it gets thrown away.

You really shouldnt be using them as bin liners either as thats straight to landfill and no good at all.

@DarloRich - yeah heard good things about MK - our lot are not too shabbby about it either which is good

 

[Bald Rick]

St Albans is the same. The only things that go in our ‘landfill’ bin is plastic film (which is not recyclable, it’s the bottom of the plastic chain IIRC) composite packaging that can’t easily be separated or recycled, and poop bags from the kittens’ litter tray (bio-deg bags and litter). Hopefully the latter will stop soon when they go to next door’s garden

Used Kitchen towel can be composted incidentally (albeit most councils don’t advertise that)

 

[Bletchleyite]

MK council run a fantastic recycling scheme. It should really be the basis of a nationwide standard. It is so easy and seems to work very well and is collected every week. The food/green waste recycling is such a bonus. It really cuts down on your black sack waste. The two things I wish they could take to recycle are kitchen towel and those film lids you often get on plastic containers.

I think it's fair to say MK's system is the best in the country - but it has been around in some form since the start, so it should be!

 

[DarloRich]

I think it's fair to say MK's system is the best in the country - but it has been around in some form since the start, so it should be!

what i find really good is that the council have resisted the urge to move away form weekly collections.

 

[Bletchleyite]

what i find really good is that the council have resisted the urge to move away form weekly collections.

Indeed. Recycling works best with the carrot than the stick, and that is what MK has provided. Leaving rotting rubbish around for a month (if you miss one) is not the way to go, it just causes rats and foxes.

 

[ComUtoR]

Why do throw away the reusable bag?

I throw mine away for a few reasons. The first and most important reason is that they are ****. Smaller, wrong shape, weaker. All in all I find the ones I get are the worst.

 

[gordonthemoron]

This is not a tax, you get your money back when you return the bottle

 

[tony_mac]

Don't throw it away, then. Keep it for use later, even if you use it as a bin liner before it gets thrown away.
...
If you genuinely use 15 times more plastic than you did before they stopped selling them, though, perhaps you need to reconsider your habits and carry a reusable bag more frequently.

I've got plenty of bags, I don't need any more at home. All I would be doing is storing them to be thrown away later. They may get used as bin liners, but that is still throwing them away - and is massively more wasteful than using a disposable bag for the same purpose (or even a dedicated bin liner, ~4 grams/litre as opposed to ~0.2)

A reusable bag is about 10-15 times more plastic than a disposable bag. I don't go through a lot - probably single figures per year - but I did not use any more when they were disposable, so it's now just much more wasteful.

(Actually, the last time I realised that I needed a bag, I just went next door to Iceland, did some shopping there and got a disposable one, but that's not always an option)

 

[Geezertronic]

I think that getting rid of the free plastic bags is a big mistake. I have to pay for bags to pick up the dog mess now

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that getting rid of the free plastic bags is a big mistake. I have to pay for bags to pick up the dog mess now

Better to use dedicated compostable cellulose based bags for that as it can biodegrade with the dog mess instead of preserving it forever hung off a tree branch

 

[pemma]

Better to use dedicated compostable cellulose based bags for that as it can biodegrade with the dog mess instead of preserving it forever hung off a tree branch

Why do dog owners pick up dog muck and then hang the bags on tree branches? It's like they think we've put it in a bag, now the servant can come and collect the bags.