Mid platform signals

[LDECRexile]

St Helens Central springs to mind. Set of trailing points in front to allow turnbacks (but isn't AC wired so now fairly useless). The old loco stock workings used to go past it.

Most unusually, the crossover was used by passenger trains in October 2014 as part of the electrification works in the area, as shown here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157667555715016

 

[Crossover]

Not sure if St Erth would count, as although the signal is at the end of the platform, a HST set has to pass it to platform as many passenger doors as possible (come to think of it, I think a few in Cornwall may be similar - a lot on semaphores, of course)

St Helens Central springs to mind. Set of trailing points in front to allow turnbacks (but isn't AC wired so now fairly useless). The old loco stock workings used to go past it.

Seems a bit odd not to have wired the crossover?!

 

[ManSignaller]

Yes, the Driver acts on the last aspect recieved when restarting the train. It is possible the signal will revert to danger once the front of the train has passed. This happens at the mid platform signals at Manchester Oxford Road.

Rural stations also have such signals, mid platformish, when the stopping train must pass them when 'off' to accommodate the platform. Any sudden emergency is easily dealt with by radio communication, if the situation suddenly changes.

 

[driver_m]

Not sure if St Erth would count, as although the signal is at the end of the platform, a HST set has to pass it to platform as many passenger doors as possible (come to think of it, I think a few in Cornwall may be similar - a lot on semaphores, of course)



Seems a bit odd not to have wired the crossover?!

The box at Central should have gone at the same time as Huyton but ended up not doing. Maybe it was going to be moved or pulled out. Seems odd when other boxes have moved into the ROC at Manchester.

 

[Heartland]

Cradley Heath platform and booking office were built where the goods yard was for the sidings to the Earl of Dudleys/ Pensnett Railway private lines to various collieries and Round Oak Iron & Steelworks. The original platform for Birmingham Snow Hill was on the other side of the crossing. The signal box was on this side of the crossing, but that was taken down.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Temple Meads - "Maltese Cross" I believe.

Shrub Hill ?

 

[Railsigns]

Temple Meads - "Maltese Cross" I believe.

No; St. Andrew's crosses.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

No; St. Andrew's crosses.

Thanks for that ! - still there until the resignalling ....?

 

[crosscity]

Longbridge (down platform). The signal is immediately before the beginning of the set of ladder points that allow the Longbridge terminators to access the siding on the up side.

 

[Darbs]

Thanks for that ! - still there until the resignalling ....?

Yes, when it's re controlled to TVSC they should be finally installing the mid platform signals so farewell to the crosses!

 

[mrbluelips]

Both platforms 13 and 14 at Manchester Piccadilly have mid-platform signalling.

I'm not sure if this is a throw-back to when the platforms were reconfigured, but it causes terrible confusion to passengers and obvious frustration to platform staff if the train stops at the wrong end of the platform because the mid-way signal doesn't show a proceed aspect.

I can see how it might be useful to stack trains during busier times but in practice that doesn't really work.

Many drivers creep up to the signal at a snails pace seemingly hoping it will change to a proceed aspect, which it often does, allowing the train to continue to the end of the platform.

 

[louis97]

Both platforms 13 and 14 at Manchester Piccadilly have mid-platform signalling.

I'm not sure if this is a throw-back to when the platforms were reconfigured, but it causes terrible confusion to passengers and obvious frustration to platform staff if the train stops at the wrong end of the platform because the mid-way signal doesn't show a proceed aspect.

I can see how it might be useful to stack trains during busier times but in practice that doesn't really work.

Many drivers creep up to the signal at a snails pace seemingly hoping it will change to a proceed aspect, which it often does, allowing the train to continue to the end of the platform.

The main use of them (which is why you see them at busy places like in the Thameslink Core, etc) is to allow a following train to start entering the platform before the departing train has cleared the signal at the end of the platforms overlap. This reduces the re-occupation time of the platform, generally the mid platform signal should clear before the following train gets to it.

 

[Crossover]

Both platforms 13 and 14 at Manchester Piccadilly have mid-platform signalling.

I'm not sure if this is a throw-back to when the platforms were reconfigured, but it causes terrible confusion to passengers and obvious frustration to platform staff if the train stops at the wrong end of the platform because the mid-way signal doesn't show a proceed aspect.

I can see how it might be useful to stack trains during busier times but in practice that doesn't really work.

Many drivers creep up to the signal at a snails pace seemingly hoping it will change to a proceed aspect, which it often does, allowing the train to continue to the end of the platform.

Leeds is similar - had a case recently where we got dumped on the "back" of platform 16 as a result of, presumably, the signal ahead not been clear. Also had an issue where a double 185 from York to Leeds via Castleford came onto 16 from the Dewsbury end of the platform and the mid-signal hadn't been cleared leaving us briefly not fully platformed

 

[dk1]

There's a crossover part way down the platform, so there's both:
-A 3 aspect starter signal on the platform end, and
-A 2 aspect (R/G) 'inner' starter signal to enable a shorter train to be in the platform and be clear of movements in/out of the adjacent platform via the crossover.

This is not quite true. They are both 3-aspect signals. They apply to the signal in advance whether it be L27 or L31 depending on the length of the train in 9/10 &/or whether another train is arriving or departing platforms 7/8. It is very rare for an arrival to use the top crossovers.

 

[D Foster]

Yes, when it's re controlled to TVSC they should be finally installing the mid platform signals so farewell to the crosses!

Lighten my darkness please. what were these signals, what was their meaning and how were they used please??? And - a picture perhaps? This is (yet another) weirdity that I haven't stumbled on previously.
Weirdities are the great thing about an interest in signalling!

Thanks

 

[Tomnick]

Lighten my darkness please. what were these signals, what was their meaning and how were they used please??? And - a picture perhaps? This is (yet another) weirdity that I haven't stumbled on previously.
Weirdities are the great thing about an interest in signalling!

Thanks

Broadly speaking, they're mid-platform markers. Most (?) of the through platforms are provided with one, double sided - a black cross on a white background - with the length of platform either side of each marker being numbered differently (odd numbered platforms to the north/east, even numbered platforms to the south/west). Trains signalled into the platform (in either direction) can be routed either to the mid-platform marker or to the signal at the far end of the platform, the only difference to the driver being the route indication (e.g. arriving from the north, an even number indicates authority to proceed along the full length of the platform, an odd number only as far as the mid-platform marker). It'll only be a single yellow even if the route's set right to the far end (unless, presumably, there's a route set beyond), or a position light if any part of the platform is occupied (even if the route's only set to the marker, and the line is clear that far). If a train is signalled to the marker but subsequently needs to pass it, verbal authority needs to be given.

That's my understanding at least - a signalling curiosity indeed!

 

[alxndr]

Lighten my darkness please. what were these signals, what was their meaning and how were they used please??? And - a picture perhaps? This is (yet another) weirdity that I haven't stumbled on previously.

See the top left of this photograph. It's a black cross on white, not on blue, and according to the sectional appendix are fitted to all platforms except 15.

 

[Tomnick]

See the top left of this photograph. It's a black cross on white, not on blue, and according to the sectional appendix are fitted to all platforms except 15.

Apologies, but thanks for the correction - no idea what I was thinking of!

 

[alxndr]

Apologies, but thanks for the correction - no idea what I was thinking of!

I was puzzling them out on Sunday having never noticed them before (nice to see them come up here and have my suspicions about their purpose confirmed), and still had to double check I wasn't mistaken on the colour, thought I might have been going batty.

 

[Darbs]

Platforms 3 to 12 are divided with a cross at Bristol Temple Meads. Platforms 1 and 2 are bays (platform 2 isn't used for passengers - no signalled routes!) and platforms 13 and 15 are too short to divide in two.

 

[pompeyfan]

I have a signalling question. If you're on a curved platform and recieve position lights, how is this shown at the platform? A banner repeater wouldn't be allowed to show a 45 degree, would an 'OFF' be allowed?

 

[scrapy]

The box at Central should have gone at the same time as Huyton but ended up not doing. Maybe it was going to be moved or pulled out. Seems odd when other boxes have moved into the ROC at Manchester.

Yes crossover due to be moved to other end of station and what remains of disused line and junction removed when St Helens Ctl box moves to Manchester ROC and will be wired then. Not sure why it wasn't done at same time as Huyton.

 

[infobleep]

The main use of them (which is why you see them at busy places like in the Thameslink Core, etc) is to allow a following train to start entering the platform before the departing train has cleared the signal at the end of the platforms overlap. This reduces the re-occupation time of the platform, generally the mid platform signal should clear before the following train gets to it.

Is that why Surbiton has one on platform 1?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Crossover]

I have a signalling question. If you're on a curved platform and recieve position lights, how is this shown at the platform? A banner repeater wouldn't be allowed to show a 45 degree, would an 'OFF' be allowed?

Don't quote me on it, but I think you do get an OFF indication with a position light proceed indication

 

[swt_passenger]

Is that why Surbiton has one on platform 1?

Is that not a normal signal protecting the route into the down siding, which is accessed about 2/3s of the way down the platform?

 

[DY444]

Is that not a normal signal protecting the route into the down siding, which is accessed about 2/3s of the way down the platform?

Yes it is

 

[infobleep]

Is that not a normal signal protecting the route into the down siding, which is accessed about 2/3s of the way down the platform?

Could they add a signal to enable trains to move in and out of the platform more quickly.

I'm only think in relation to other stations that have signals and of o understand correctly offer this functionality.

I'm not saying it's possible here as such.

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[Tomnick]

Don't quote me on it, but I think you do get an OFF indication with a position light proceed indication

Not sure whether it's always the case, but you certainly do in my quite specific experience.

 

[The Planner]

Yes crossover due to be moved to other end of station and what remains of disused line and junction removed when St Helens Ctl box moves to Manchester ROC and will be wired then. Not sure why it wasn't done at same time as Huyton.

££££ is why

 

[tsr]

Not sure whether it's always the case, but you certainly do in my quite specific experience.

From what I've found, if an off indicator has been provided for the main aspect of a starter signal then it will illuminate when any position light associated (in this case I do not mean in conjunction with another aspect illuminated) with that signal is off. If there is no off indicator for a main aspect one isn't usually provided, likewise one is not usually provided for a position light only (mid or end of platform equally). Routes are generally not indicated when off indicators are cleared for position light moves.

As always with the railway, there will be caveats and local exceptions.