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Mid platform signals

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edwin_m

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But can a driver treat an OFF indicator as confirmation of a proceed aspect? If not then the original question was whether a banner would show a proceed aspect if the signal it repeated was displaying a subsidiary aspect. May not be relevant for a train approaching, as the approach controls would probably hold the signal at danger until after the train had passed the banner anyway, but what about a short train stopping in a long curved platform with no view of the starter?
 
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iphone76

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Platform 10 (DM) at Stratord in the up direction has a signal 2/3 way down platform. Has to be off if you have a 12 car train. Also Maryland P4 (DM) in the up direction has to be off if changing ends with an 8 car or stopping with an 8 car in service.
 

pompeyfan

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In regards to my question about banners and off's, I was trying to get to the bottom of how a guard/platform staff would give the bat/2 on the bell if they received position lights.
 

D Foster

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Broadly speaking, they're mid-platform markers. Most (?) of the through platforms are provided with one, double sided - a black cross on a white background - with the length of platform either side of each marker being numbered differently (odd numbered platforms to the north/east, even numbered platforms to the south/west). Trains signalled into the platform (in either direction) can be routed either to the mid-platform marker or to the signal at the far end of the platform, the only difference to the driver being the route indication (e.g. arriving from the north, an even number indicates authority to proceed along the full length of the platform, an odd number only as far as the mid-platform marker). It'll only be a single yellow even if the route's set right to the far end (unless, presumably, there's a route set beyond), or a position light if any part of the platform is occupied (even if the route's only set to the marker, and the line is clear that far). If a train is signalled to the marker but subsequently needs to pass it, verbal authority needs to be given.

That's my understanding at least - a signalling curiosity indeed!

Thanks for this - and the following reply about the markers :D
So - this is not actually a signal but a "marker". Is that correct please?
Also - is it illuminated - all the time, part time - or...?
Thanks again :D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But can a driver treat an OFF indicator as confirmation of a proceed aspect? If not then the original question was whether a banner would show a proceed aspect if the signal it repeated was displaying a subsidiary aspect. May not be relevant for a train approaching, as the approach controls would probably hold the signal at danger until after the train had passed the banner anyway, but what about a short train stopping in a long curved platform with no view of the starter?

As I understand the original question about repeaters and following through to this post...

1. Drivers work on the signals they see as they see them - strictly in accordance with their route knowledge, the train they are working and the environmental conditions at the time.
2. A platform repeater is not a signal - it is there to assist platform staff and guards when the conditions of the platform would prevent them from having a clear view of the signal that it applies to.
3. Due to the nature of 2 a platform repeater could provide the platform staff and guards with an "OFF" indication at any time that the main signal (primary aspect) that it refers to or any position light subsidiary or shunt signal shows a "Proceed" aspect.
Therefore a platform repeater could show "OFF" for a G, Y, YY , "Draw Ahead", "shunt (to siding via facing connection) and any of the older named subsidiary signal designations.
If a Driver were to approach the platform repeater when the signal it repeated was displaying a position light indication at least three things should apply... (a) it is not a Banner Repeater - so it isn't a signal and doesn't give the same information/degree of safety that a signal provides (including a Banner Repeater) - so, basically, he/she should ignore it.
(b) the previous signal that was past would have been at most a single yellow (There's a small chance that it would have been a position light - probably a shunt)
(c) he/she should know what the existing movement is doing and booked to do next - and if he/she doesn't (potentially due to a change in working) then he/she should be proceeding with caution anyway.
If the "OFF" indication were noticed by an approaching driver he/she would not leap to a conclusion that the signal referred to was somehow suddenly showing a green aspect.

4. A Banner Repeater Signal, as distinct from a platform repeater, will repeat the main aspect and not a position light. Both the main aspect and the Banner Repeater are Running Signals which will be obeyed (worked to) by the footplate crew and guard.
So - we can have a situation where a train will approach the signal with the position light... It will have past a signal showing one yellow, it will be slowing to a dead stop or approach control speed - ready to stop dead - and both the footplate crew and guard will have observed these conditions - and (again) should know what to expect from the booked working or additional (verbal) instruction. A guard at or near the back of a long train may consequently get a situation in which a train moves from standing or a very slow moving train draws forward while the Banner Repeater is "ON"... He/she should, however, promptly see the main aspect - showing red - and the position light providing its "non-running" proceed indication. If the position light was not illuminated the guard would apply his/her brake control and bring the movement to a stand.

Again - route knowledge, timetable knowledge or additional instruction would apply.

I hope this helps :D
 
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carriageline

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But can a driver treat an OFF indicator as confirmation of a proceed aspect? If not then the original question was whether a banner would show a proceed aspect if the signal it repeated was displaying a subsidiary aspect. May not be relevant for a train approaching, as the approach controls would probably hold the signal at danger until after the train had passed the banner anyway, but what about a short train stopping in a long curved platform with no view of the starter?



I know of one location where a banner repeater repeats the subsidiary aspect.

Although this is at a terminus station, on a curved platform. Not sure if that answers the original question!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

D Foster

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I know of one location where a banner repeater repeats the subsidiary aspect.

Although this is at a terminus station, on a curved platform. Not sure if that answers the original question!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is that a full sized Banner Repeater or one of the (rare) little ones? (I forgot about those! :oops: I'm trying to recall where I've seen a little LED Banner Repeater...??? :oops:
 

swt_passenger

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I'm trying to recall where I've seen a little LED Banner Repeater...??? :oops:

Portsmouth Harbour is fairly well provided with small LED banner repeaters, IIRC the boxes they are fitted in are combined with a CD/RA display as well, they seem to be fitted at suitable distances for departing 4 and 8 car trains.

(That isn't attempting to answer the point about what they display for a subsidiary signal though.)
 

D Foster

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Portsmouth Harbour is fairly well provided with small LED banner repeaters, IIRC the boxes they are fitted in are combined with a CD/RA display as well, they seem to be fitted at suitable distances for departing 4 and 8 car trains.

(That isn't attempting to answer the point about what they display for a subsidiary signal though.)

Hmmm? Does this mean that they are using little banner repeaters in place of platform repeaters?
Then again - it sounds like they could be using a combination for starting trains away from the back ends of platforms where they wouldn't necessarily be able to see the main aspect. (I'm not familiar with Portsmouth).

Thanks
:D
 

swt_passenger

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Hmmm? Does this mean that they are using little banner repeaters in place of platform repeaters?
Then again - it sounds like they could be using a combination for starting trains away from the back ends of platforms where they wouldn't necessarily be able to see the main aspect. (I'm not familiar with Portsmouth).

I can have a good look within a few days when I next pass through, something at the back of my mind says that the CD/RA is fitted but not in use, as all trains have guards. I'll also check whether there are OFF indicators as well.
 

edwin_m

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Hmmm? Does this mean that they are using little banner repeaters in place of platform repeaters?
Then again - it sounds like they could be using a combination for starting trains away from the back ends of platforms where they wouldn't necessarily be able to see the main aspect. (I'm not familiar with Portsmouth).

Nor am I, but that sounds like what is happening. As you say a driver can't act on an OFF indicator, but platform staff can use a banner as evidence of the starter signal being off. As I understand it small banners have the same functions as full-size ones but are intended only to be viewed from close up.
 

swt_passenger

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I can have a good look within a few days when I next pass through, something at the back of my mind says that the CD/RA is fitted but not in use, as all trains have guards. I'll also check whether there are OFF indicators as well.

Can confirm there are no obvious OFF indicators at Portsmouth Harbour. The 12 car platforms P3/4/5 each have three of these mini banner repeaters combined with CD/RA indicators, they are positioned slightly differently, but roughly at the 5, 7 and 10 car positions with respect to a 12 car train, i.e. on the curved parts of the platforms. Platform 1 (about 8 car) has just the two mini banners.

Photo attached shows P3's middle one of 3, which is positioned just alongside the start of coach 8.
 

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driver_m

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Is that a full sized Banner Repeater or one of the (rare) little ones? (I forgot about those! :oops: I'm trying to recall where I've seen a little LED Banner Repeater...??? :oops:

Wolverhampton - platform 2? (That's near your location)
 

Matt Taylor

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I sign Portsmouth Harbour, there are no OFF indicators, each platform has three small LED banner repeaters. Each platform is also equipped with CD/RA equipment which is used for empty stock workings as although many ecs trains have guards the operating procedure is for platform staff to check the trains and despatch using the RA buttons.
 

swt_passenger

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I sign Portsmouth Harbour, there are no OFF indicators, each platform has three small LED banner repeaters. Each platform is also equipped with CD/RA equipment which is used for empty stock workings as although many ecs trains have guards the operating procedure is for platform staff to check the trains and despatch using the RA buttons.

Does P1 have one that's off the end of the platform then Matt? I thought I only saw 2, but was looking from P3 so may have missed one.
 

edwin_m

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I sign Portsmouth Harbour, there are no OFF indicators, each platform has three small LED banner repeaters. Each platform is also equipped with CD/RA equipment which is used for empty stock workings as although many ecs trains have guards the operating procedure is for platform staff to check the trains and despatch using the RA buttons.

Does it also have subsidiary aspects on the platform starters, and if so do the banners show clear when that aspect is displayed?
 

Matt Taylor

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Yes there are three BRs on P1 with one off the end of the platform as the main aspect is on the same gantry as the main aspects for P3-5 despite it being a significantly shorter platform with a more acute curve. There are no subsidiary aspects on the gantry exiting Portsmouth Harbour as the track continues as a twin track route with four further main aspects before arrival at Southsea. Subsidiary signals are provided at Southsea to enable movements towards Fratton Depot of Southsea Down Carriage Sidings.
 

swt_passenger

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Yes there are three BRs on P1 with one off the end of the platform as the main aspect is on the same gantry as the main aspects for P3-5 despite it being a significantly shorter platform with a more acute curve.

Thanks Matt, perhaps it could be seen as future proofing in the unlikely event that platform was ever extended landward...
 

edwin_m

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General preference is to have signals on adjacent tracks alongside each other, a it reduces the risk of drivers thinking a signal for an adjacent track is applying to them (or vice versa).
 

father_jack

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Thanks for that ! - still there until the resignalling ....?
Only catching up on this now. When I started in the Bristol area in 2003 the St Andrews crosses were as commanding as red signals- movement without "permission to pass the cross" from the panel was the same as passing a red signal anywhere else.

If the bulb failed someone would have to stand at the cross with a red lamp, even if the train was stopping short.

IIRC Network Rail somewhat changed the St Andrews cross to the equivalent of a "stop board" meaning permission from the panel was required to pass- but if passed without authority it now wasn't a SPAR...............:D
 

D Foster

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...as the track continues as a twin track route with four further main aspects before arrival at Southsea. Subsidiary signals are provided at Southsea to enable movements towards Fratton Depot of Southsea Down Carriage Sidings.

Are these subsidiaries "Draw Ahead" signals that would previously have been called "shunt (to sidings)" signals please?

Thanks :D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Only catching up on this now. When I started in the Bristol area in 2003 the St Andrews crosses were as commanding as red signals- movement without "permission to pass the cross" from the panel was the same as passing a red signal anywhere else.

If the bulb failed someone would have to stand at the cross with a red lamp, even if the train was stopping short.

IIRC Network Rail somewhat changed the St Andrews cross to the equivalent of a "stop board" meaning permission from the panel was required to pass- but if passed without authority it now wasn't a SPAR...............:D

How was the permission obtained please? Was there an SPT (or equivalent) adjacent to the sign?

Thanks :D
 

edwin_m

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Are these subsidiaries "Draw Ahead" signals that would previously have been called "shunt (to sidings)" signals please?

These distinctions between types of subsidiary aspect disappeared on new schemes many years ago (we certainly just called them subsidiaries when I was deeply involved in around 1990). Basically a subsidiary aspect tells the driver to proceed at low speed and ready to stop short of any obstruction including a ground position light at danger or another train. So any route into a non-track-circuited siding will display a subsidiary aspect, because the signalling doesn't know if there is a train already there or not. Similarly a route into an occupied platform will display a subsidiary aspect.
 

alxndr

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Still is that way. Black cross on a SPT.



Black St Andrews cross on a white background? That's the symbol for a lineside phone rather than an SPT, which is diagonal white and black stripes (the difference being that it's not mounted on/next to a signal post!)
 

Darbs

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There are dedicated phones for asking to pass the cross but it's authorised to use the GSM-R now
 

Matt Taylor

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These distinctions between types of subsidiary aspect disappeared on new schemes many years ago (we certainly just called them subsidiaries when I was deeply involved in around 1990). Basically a subsidiary aspect tells the driver to proceed at low speed and ready to stop short of any obstruction including a ground position light at danger or another train. So any route into a non-track-circuited siding will display a subsidiary aspect, because the signalling doesn't know if there is a train already there or not. Similarly a route into an occupied platform will display a subsidiary aspect.

All correct, the signalling term is 'proceed as far as the line is clear, being prepared to stop'. Dummy, dolly, ground position signal, subsidiary signal, all different names for the same thing.
 

D Foster

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All correct, the signalling term is 'proceed as far as the line is clear, being prepared to stop'. Dummy, dolly, ground position signal, subsidiary signal, all different names for the same thing.

"All the same thing"??? :o Not in my day! <D Officially we had Ground Signals, shunts and three types of subsidiary - and do not mix them up!
That was Southern well into the 80s - at least. We still had the C and S indications at least. I don't know of anywhere that had a W... Does anyone please?
"Draw Ahead" didn't exist on Southern that I knew of.

Just when Draw Ahead came in seems to be a bit of a mystery.

I have seen an official LMS minute from the 1930s that said that the letters would be dropped from use - simply not being installed new or replaced with maintenance - as distinct from actually being taken out.
At about the same time an IRSE meeting had a long and complicated discussion about subsidiary signals. Its conclusion was basically that the distinctions were a useful thing and should continue to be applied.
I don't have any idea what the LNER and GWR got up to with regard to this - beyond at least having the traditional 3... Except - I believe that the GW used Warning signals into Paddington for platforms already occupied.
Any information anyone please?

Thanks :D

:D
 
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