Midland and Great Northern: Poignant anniversary; or, That's Yer Lot

[Calthrop]

Marking -- for this poster, at all events -- a sad happening, the large majority of a lifetime ago. That being the end, as decreed by British Railways, of the former Midland & Great Northern Joint Railway's lines as an interlinked system carrying freight and passenger traffic: some 170 miles of interconnecting passenger services withdrawn -- Great Britain's biggest such route length ever thus closed at any one time, as of that date; which I identify as February 28th 1959, just sixty years ago.

With the overall situation concerning public and private transport, the way it had come to be as at then; the days of passenger services throughout this definitely "secondary", deeply rural, and largely other-rail-duplicated system would in any case have been numbered, and retention thereof would have been hard to defend on any other grounds than those of sentiment and nostalgia. (I would suggest that if environmental factors are considered, things could be seen as different freight-wise.) However, the M & GN was greatly loved by many enthusiasts and local people; and for numerous folk, late February 1959 hurt. The official withdrawal date was March 2nd; but with no Sunday services on the system, the last passenger workings were on Saturday February 28th. As was more or less standard in those years, "stunts and antics" commemorated the final day's workings; with many people making a sentimental last journey on the trains, and assorted attendant larks. Locos hauling the trains bore various rueful chalked comments, including the laconic "That's Yer Lot".

My love of the M & GN stems in large part, from its having been in the close background of my childhood / adolescence; first in Spalding, then in Peterborough -- lived for the first twenty-odd years of my life, within sight or almost, of one or another M & GN line (first decade, up to the "evil 28th"; second, post-same). It's likely that my first-ever train journey was on a Spalding -- Hunstanton excursion, M & GN between Spalding and South / King's Lynn.

"Black February" meant the end of "passenger" on the M & GN, or all-but; not, however, instant oblivion for the entire system -- although a dozen years on, nearly all of what at first survived thus, had vanished. In this way, a little over half the system continued at first, in scattered sections, to carry freight; and in the case of the 16-mile Cromer -- Melton Constable section, passenger also. In childhood, it had happened that I travelled over all or most of the M & GN's east -- west route west of South Lynn, including its former Midland Railway prolongation westward to Saxby; but no more than that. In the 1960s / 70s, I managed to travel over an additional few remnants: Sheringham -- Melton Constable (closed by BR in 1964); the middle, longest-lasting, part of the Norwich City -- Melton Constable branch, between Lenwade and Themelthorpe; and South Lynn to East Rudham. Nothing of the M & GN now remains, save the national network's section, passenger-served under the aegis of GreaterAnglia, between Cromer and its western outskirts (former junction with quasi-Great Eastern trackage) and Sheringham; and the heritage North Norfolk Railway from Sheringham to "their" Holt station -- a total of some ten miles, about one-eighteenth of the system's past maximum extent.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, a sad moment. I wasn't born until long after that date, however I do use the line between Cromer and Holt annually and it's become something of a holiday line for me.

It's closure was of course a portent of darker times to come, however It's spirit was at least immortalised when several episodes of 'Hi-De-Hi were partially filmed at Weybourne station.

 

[MP33]

I read that just before closure some of the smaller stations were still selling tickets with LMS on them. Are there two small remnants at a railway museum and short length of track at Whitwell station and some freight lines around the docks at Kings Lynn?

 

[Calthrop]

One gathers that particularly in the M&GN's last decade-and-some, post-World War II, the holiday-camp scene featured quite prominently for it; this, especially along the coastal stretch of line north of Yarmouth (Beach) station -- wasn't there for some of that time, a Holiday Camps Express from London (Liverpool Street) along the ex-GER route to North Walsham: reversing there on to the M&GN main line and running on to Yarmouth (Beach), serving various camps?

With my love of the M&GN, I really feel that I should belong to the North Norfolk Railway's supporting society; but I fear that I never have done. Were I a man of greater means, I'd do so on principle... however, and that aside, I'm a hard-to-please individual where heritage / preservation doings are concerned; I don't in all honesty, for myself, find the North Norfolk very inspiring -- and it feels for me, in itself untypical of the M&GN as I knew it in childhood, much further west. All this, its seaside setting notwithstanding. I'd feel better-disposed to the NNR if it were able to run at least, as far as Holt's original station; but -- through no fault of the heritage undertaking -- the predominance and priority in this era re big, high-speed roads, makes that out of the question.

My greatest M&GN regret, is never having travelled on its Peterborough -- Wisbech -- Sutton Bridge section. Living in Peterborough from summer 1957 onward, plenty of action was seen in the normal course of things of the line at its Peterborough end, in the a-bit-over-a-year-and-a-half leading up to end-Feb. '59; and some after, during the years for which the line was retained for freight west of Wisbech (our house was within sight of the route, near Dogsthorpe brickworks). Not travelled on, though -- aged ten and under, one lacks the means and parental authority to do one's own solo line-bashing. My father had some interest in railways, and sympathy for my passion for them; suggestions in general terms, of possible rail rides in his company -- but he died, fairly young, a few months before the end of the system's passenger services. (That might seem a bit like a "Ruthless Rhyme for Heartless Homes" -- but I was not meaning it to.) Re childhood rail experiences, one really has to be grateful for what came one's way, rather than grieve over what did not happen.

I read that just before closure some of the smaller stations were still selling tickets with LMS on them. Are there two small remnants at a railway museum and short length of track at Whitwell station and some freight lines around the docks at Kings Lynn?

https://whitwellstation.com/

To the best of my knowledge, all rail freight action at Kings Lynn docks has ceased.

 

[DerekC]

My sole memory of the M&GN is seeing one of the demolition trains at (I think) Potter Heigham from the back of my parents' car and being very grumpy at their refusal to change the day's planned activity to go and look at it. We were staying at Happisburgh for our annual holiday, as I recall. I did write an essay about it when I returned to school but fortunately it's now lost!

 

[Calthrop]

Wretched parents -- they did annoyingly, tend not to "get it". To be fair, mine were probably more understanding than most. Various things reflecting my almost-from-infancy railway enthusiasm, showed up in my demanded-from-schoolkids literary efforts: as with yours, they are -- probably mercifully -- gone beyond recall. (Some of the utter rubbish which one came up with as a kid: one feels thankful that in all probability, nobody other than oneself now has any memory of it.)

 

[J-Rod]

To the best of my knowledge, all rail freight action at Kings Lynn docks has ceased.

Mothballed would probably be the correct term, I think.

Very interesting reading, this thread. As a recently arrived citizen of the 'Lynn a rail network similar to what was would do the area no end of favours. Everyone relies on their car to go... anywhere... very few busses... very few dual carriageway roads... lots of farm traffic and trucks... and when one road gets blocked, that means hours of very slow moving traffic and occasionally gridlock. A few trains to Wisbech, Peterborough and Hunstanton would take SO many cars from the roads!!

 

[Calthrop]

I've always found it sad and ironic that a justification advanced for ending the M&GN's passenger services early in 1959, was that the system was largely duplicated by ex-GER routes. Then over the following ten years, the "duplicating" lines in the actual rural areas were closed to passengers also (admittedly, main-line-wise, linking of Peterborough / Norwich / Yarmouth via Ely as opposed to Melton Constable, continued and continues). That was, unhappily, the way of things re rail lines of lesser magnitude, in that era.

I find myself sometimes musing on the possible desirability of a more authoritarian style of government which -- in the interests of what would be good environmentally -- would / would have enforced retaining a lot more of Britain's rail system, and in one way or another compelled people to use same, rather than road; but that would be, in other aspects, a potentially "iffy" direction in which to go...

 

[J-Rod]

hmm, yes... The Situation What We Have Got Now... or the rail equivalent of the Blackshirts. They might have enforced the buying of British Rail food of that era too...

 

[Calthrop]

Though one reflects that Hitler himself was keen to make things so that any ordinary German family who wished to own a car, should be able to -- the origin of the Volkswagen. That might -- if the regime concerned had, heaven forbid, endured -- have negatively impacted rail passenger use. If I'd been the Fuehrer, I would for sure have taken a different tack on that issue...

 

[J-Rod]

then again... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitspurbahn

 

[Calthrop]

then again... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitspurbahn

A little part of oneself, can't help feeling that this thing would have been a sight worth seeing -- though with history as it has been, thank heaven it never became possible. In a different scenario where Nazi-ism was basically nice (as totalitarian dictatorships go); and had wished only to co-operate with the other nations of Europe and, making use of German technology, to drive increasing prosperity for all (that'd be one for "Speculative Ideas" !) -- a benign Breitspurbahn might be imagined...

 

[J-Rod]

Oh I think, without the Nazi stuff, it would have been severely impressive!

 

[WesternLancer]

I've always found it sad and ironic that a justification advanced for ending the M&GN's passenger services early in 1959, was that the system was largely duplicated by ex-GER routes. Then over the following ten years, the "duplicating" lines in the actual rural areas were closed to passengers also (admittedly, main-line-wise, linking of Peterborough / Norwich / Yarmouth via Ely as opposed to Melton Constable, continued and continues). That was, unhappily, the way of things re rail lines of lesser magnitude, in that era.

I find myself sometimes musing on the possible desirability of a more authoritarian style of government which -- in the interests of what would be good environmentally -- would / would have enforced retaining a lot more of Britain's rail system, and in one way or another compelled people to use same, rather than road; but that would be, in other aspects, a potentially "iffy" direction in which to go...

An enjoyable thread in general on the M&GNR

worth remembering that many rail services survived in the eastern bloc up to and beyond the fall of the iron curtain that would otherwise have gone much earlier had they had a western style economic regime. I enjoyed a few in 1990/91 era and I think a good few have since been closed once the 'capitalist bean counters' got involved.

I suspect the food was worse than BRs offerings however...

 

[Calthrop]

worth remembering that many rail services survived in the eastern bloc up to and beyond the fall of the iron curtain that would otherwise have gone much earlier had they had a western style economic regime. I enjoyed a few in 1990/91 era and I think a good few have since been closed once the 'capitalist bean counters' got involved.

I suspect the food was worse than BRs offerings however...

Re the Eastern bloc -- certainly the case in the USSR's European "satellite" nations: I get the impression that oddly, there were (pre-1990) rather more rail closures in the USSR itself. The E. European country which I know best, is Poland; I made several visits there during the last decade of Communism -- more, after -- and the quantity of lines still in traffic there circa 1980 -- 1991, was amazing (and a goodly number of minor branch lines which had lost passenger service, were still in use for freight). I like to say re this situation, that in Poland for most of the 1980s, it was the equivalent of BR's situation around 1955; and pretty much the same, I understand, went for the other "satellites" too. This admirable retention of rail services was, I gather, based on the ideas of economics which obtained "then and there" (also, the passenger trains were used, because only a lucky minority of the population were in a position to own private cars); and, I'd suspect, with military preparedness factoring in also -- rather than what I would most value rail for: concern for the environment, and conservation of resources.

In Poland certainly, in the three decades since Communism ended, the decline of lesser sections of the rail system has been -- from the point of view of people like us -- horrendous. The great majority of the branch lines which had passenger services as at the end of Communism, now have none (some areas of the country have fared better / worse than others, re this matter); and there is now, also, sadly little freight traffic happening on branch and secondary lines. One gathers that in other countries of Eastern Europe there have certainly been rail closures; but some have, so far, fared better than Poland. A lot of lines in former East Germany have lost their passenger services -- but seemingly, not quite on an outright "massacre" scale. A good number of rural branches in the Czech Republic, and Hungary, are still rail-passenger-served. I don't know what the situation is in other former-satellite countries.

The impression is got, that Poland is basically not a country which one visits specifically for the food ! Rail refreshment-room fare in Communist times was IMO not horrible, but definitely on the humdrum side. Nowadays there, Western-style fast-food outlets are greatly to the fore.

 

[WesternLancer]

Re the Eastern bloc -- certainly the case in the USSR's European "satellite" nations: I get the impression that oddly, there were (pre-1990) rather more rail closures in the USSR itself. The E. European country which I know best, is Poland; I made several visits there during the last decade of Communism -- more, after -- and the quantity of lines still in traffic there circa 1980 -- 1991, was amazing (and a goodly number of minor branch lines which had lost passenger service, were still in use for freight). I like to say re this situation, that in Poland for most of the 1980s, it was the equivalent of BR's situation around 1955; and pretty much the same, I understand, went for the other "satellites" too. This admirable retention of rail services was, I gather, based on the ideas of economics which obtained "then and there" (also, the passenger trains were used, because only a lucky minority of the population were in a position to own private cars); and, I'd suspect, with military preparedness factoring in also -- rather than what I would most value rail for: concern for the environment, and conservation of resources.

In Poland certainly, in the three decades since Communism ended, the decline of lesser sections of the rail system has been -- from the point of view of people like us -- horrendous. The great majority of the branch lines which had passenger services as at the end of Communism, now have none (some areas of the country have fared better / worse than others, re this matter); and there is now, also, sadly little freight traffic happening on branch and secondary lines. One gathers that in other countries of Eastern Europe there have certainly been rail closures; but some have, so far, fared better than Poland. A lot of lines in former East Germany have lost their passenger services -- but seemingly, not quite on an outright "massacre" scale. A good number of rural branches in the Czech Republic, and Hungary, are still rail-passenger-served. I don't know what the situation is in other former-satellite countries.

The impression is got, that Poland is basically not a country which one visits specifically for the food ! Rail refreshment-room fare in Communist times was IMO not horrible, but definitely on the humdrum side. Nowadays there, Western-style fast-food outlets are greatly to the fore.

Thanks - interesting to read - and a bit depressing, I've not been back since 1991. Mind you, the local polish shops near where I live in the midlands sell nice stuff, and a local polish restaurant is very good, but they don't reflect my experience in 1990! However, with the exception of fish and chips, I'd not miss much of what passes for western style fast food I have to say.

One recollection I have of staying in Warsaw was buying rather good bottled beer from a shop round the corner from where we were staying (it didn't look like a shop as it was clearly unnecessary in a command economy to actually attract buyers inside, there was no other choice!) - however, we soon found that about 1 in 3 bottles of beer was flat as the tops had failed at some point in the production process. We were not especially concerned however, given that the beer cost (us) less than c50p per bottle, and about 50% of the price was a returnable bottle deposit! I concluded this was a clear indication of relative production costs between beer and glass at the time.

On the wider theme, I suspect an over enthusiasm of the EU and the European bank of reconstruction ertc to finance modernisation of roads etc on the former eastern bloc will not have done the rail system any favours. Again shades of the post 1955 UK - BR story (minus the EU element of course, but with HM Treasury and DfT substituted).

 

[Calthrop]

Thanks - interesting to read - and a bit depressing, I've not been back since 1991. Mind you, the local polish shops near where I live in the midlands sell nice stuff, and a local polish restaurant is very good, but they don't reflect my experience in 1990! However, with the exception of fish and chips, I'd not miss much of what passes for western style fast food I have to say.

One recollection I have of staying in Warsaw was buying rather good bottled beer from a shop round the corner from where we were staying (it didn't look like a shop as it was clearly unnecessary in a command economy to actually attract buyers inside, there was no other choice!) - however, we soon found that about 1 in 3 bottles of beer was flat as the tops had failed at some point in the production process. We were not especially concerned however, given that the beer cost (us) less than c50p per bottle, and about 50% of the price was a returnable bottle deposit! I concluded this was a clear indication of relative production costs between beer and glass at the time.

For sure, in the last Communist decade the on-the-ground cost of things in Poland for a Western visitor, was remarkably low. However, as seemed rather often to happen when Communist regimes were involved: there came into play a "Looking-Glass-World" touch which put you back to Square One, or worse. To get a tourist visa, you had to pay at the Polish tourist office back home, an extortionate amount of money for each day of your stay -- it could often literally be a problem to find stuff costly enough to get rid of your "money mountain" (issued to you on entering Poland) on (and when leaving Poland, you couldn't turn any zlotys that you had left, into any other currency).

For sure -- in realms of "mundane people-fodder" when abroad, I'd find western-type fast food, even duller than the old-fashioned authentic Polish stuff !

 

[WesternLancer]

For sure, in the last Communist decade the on-the-ground cost of things in Poland for a Western visitor, was remarkably low. However, as seemed rather often to happen when Communist regimes were involved: there came into play a "Looking-Glass-World" touch which put you back to Square One, or worse. To get a tourist visa, you had to pay at the Polish tourist office back home, an extortionate amount of money for each day of your stay -- it could often literally be a problem to find stuff costly enough to get rid of your "money mountain" (issued to you on entering Poland) on (and when leaving Poland, you couldn't turn any zlotys that you had left, into any other currency).

For sure -- in realms of "mundane people-fodder" when abroad, I'd find western-type fast food, even duller than the old-fashioned authentic Polish stuff !

Yes, my experience was v soon after end of iron curtain, currency had gone into 'genuine market value', but was of course thus worth very little, making items v cheap for someone with £sterling to change. And the old communist policy of forcing you to change a minimum sum, which you describe well, no longer existed. Looking back, it must have been a very unsettling time for the local people. Their general hospitality and generosity of spirit - as well as their need for some money - is something I have never forgotten.

 

[Calthrop]

I too have on the whole found Poles in their home country, very kind and patient and agreeable toward the eccentric foreign visitor. Also -- a thing I've been glad of -- they've seemed to have a certain amount in common with the English: in being content a lot of the time, to "mind their own business and leave others alone to mind theirs". I'm naturally pretty much of an introvert; plus, when on a "railwaying" trip, I like to be able to observe the scenes which I'm amongst, take notes, etc., without having to do much laborious interacting, usually featuring language-barriers of varying height, with random folks encountered. Different European nationalities appear to have variedly different cultures where this matter is concerned: the Poles' Czech neighbours seem for the most part, to be lovely people; but when there, I found them extremely big on -- and quite persistent in -- wanting to chat with the chance-met traveller -- sometimes when there was literally zero in the way of language in common ! That situation drove me at times, almost round the bend -- magnified by one's feeling more than a bit of a heel for, as a guest in someone else's country, snubbing them and demonstrating a desire to pay attention not to them, but to one's surroundings -- thus feeling that one has to, against one's inclination, play along and try to "be conversational". I hear from many quarters, that Europe's absolute ultimate re this trait of socialising and conversationally engaging to the absolute max, all the time and with everyone: is found in the people of Italy. I feel thankful that I don't find that country very interesting -- have never been there, and am unlikely ever to do so !

 

[WesternLancer]

I too have on the whole found Poles in their home country, very kind and patient and agreeable toward the eccentric foreign visitor. Also -- a thing I've been glad of -- they've seemed to have a certain amount in common with the English: in being content a lot of the time, to "mind their own business and leave others alone to mind theirs". I'm naturally pretty much of an introvert; plus, when on a "railwaying" trip, I like to be able to observe the scenes which I'm amongst, take notes, etc., without having to do much laborious interacting, usually featuring language-barriers of varying height, with random folks encountered. Different European nationalities appear to have variedly different cultures where this matter is concerned: the Poles' Czech neighbours seem for the most part, to be lovely people; but when there, I found them extremely big on -- and quite persistent in -- wanting to chat with the chance-met traveller -- sometimes when there was literally zero in the way of language in common ! That situation drove me at times, almost round the bend -- magnified by one's feeling more than a bit of a heel for, as a guest in someone else's country, snubbing them and demonstrating a desire to pay attention not to them, but to one's surroundings -- thus feeling that one has to, against one's inclination, play along and try to "be conversational". I hear from many quarters, that Europe's absolute ultimate re this trait of socialising and conversationally engaging to the absolute max, all the time and with everyone: is found in the people of Italy. I feel thankful that I don't find that country very interesting -- have never been there, and am unlikely ever to do so !

Thanks Calthrop. I think u could be correct about Italy! I would tho, highly recommend this book - esp if you don't fancy going there!
Italian ways by Tim Parks - all about how the nature of the country is expressed thru it's rail system - very readable and interesting about the trains too, bargain copy here.
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/products...MIntersZTY4QIVF-d3Ch2RGgWrEAAYASAAEgKTe_D_BwE
Cheers

 

[Calthrop]

I've read a couple of books by this chap Tim Parks, about his "life and times" as a basically content British expat in Italy -- including the "rail-centric" one which you recommend above -- found them good reads, but not inspiring in me, any wish to rush off to the beauteous land of spaghetti and highly copious art-and-antiquity stuff ! On the issue of "loners versus hyper-sociable chat-ers": I recall fondly the passage in the rail-borne book, where Tim is faced with a two / three hour train journey home one evening -- he's tired and not in a socialising mood, and is hoping against hope, to be spared hearing fellow-passengers' life stories and having recounting of his own, demanded by them. Luck favours him in this case: his only compartment-mate is a young chap studying for the priesthood, who isn't interested in conversing and only wants to get stuck into his theological tome; they travel in companionable silence.

 

[36270k]

There is an interesting book by xpress publishing, "The District Controllers View No 12" which covers the M&GN in the early 50's .
It is surprising how thin the service was compared to the current hourly service from Peterborough to Norwich.

 

[Calthrop]

There is an interesting book by xpress publishing, "The District Controllers View No 12" which covers the M&GN in the early 50's .
It is surprising how thin the service was compared to the current hourly service from Peterborough to Norwich.

I'd be interested in trying to get hold of this book -- thank you. I'd imagine -- just a guess -- that with it being altogether a different era 60 / 70 years ago, services then over the Great Eastern route Peterborough -- Ely -- Norwich, were also thin in comparison with what obtains today.

 

[Grumbler]

Last day of Norwich City station
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/norwich-city-station-derek-james-1-6170165

 

[Calthrop]

@Grumbler: thanks -- of much interest. I never saw Norwich City station -- as mentioned, the western end of the system was my "patch".

Re 1942's unhappy doings -- one is inclined to fantasise about Hitler exulting: "Ve haff bombed into ruin, the Norwich City station of the ridiculous Midland & Great Northern Eisenbahn. Our victory is certain !"

 

[AJM580]

Bits of the old City Station have been discovered and uncovered, and parts of other stations such as Lenwade still exist

 

[Grumbler]

Bits of the old City Station have been discovered and uncovered, and parts of other stations such as Lenwade still exist

There is a footpath following the River Wensum along the old trackbed to the site of City Station, where there is now a traffic roundabout.

 

[edwin_m]

@GrumblerRe 1942's unhappy doings -- one is inclined to fantasise about Hitler exulting: "Ve haff bombed into ruin, the Norwich City station of the ridiculous Midland & Great Northern Eisenbahn. Our victory is certain !"

Wouldnt Goebbels have claimed it was a vital route carrying thousands of passengers and tonnes of freight every hour, and without it the collapse of the British war effort was inevitable?

 

[Calthrop]

Or at least laid claim to a fine coup in destroying a Norwich connection to the Colmans Mustard factory -- as is universally known, the Brits can't function properly without their notorious blow-your-head-off English mustard...