Midland Mainline Electricification

[WestRiding]

Sounds like it could well spell the end for Sheffield PSB, certainly, Dore Panel, and Station Panel.

 

[swt_passenger]

Appologies for been dumb. Is this 9bn quid, the HLOS and total funding for Network Rails CP5, IE, does it include Network Rails resignalling proposals in that money? Or is resignalling from other funds?

To word it simply, is the 9bn quid Network Rails spending for CP5?

Where exactly will the money be spent, is there a definative list?

AIUI the £9bn is for DfT's proposed enhancements only. Resignalling that does not provide enhancements is not part of the sum, it is funded from existing maintenance and renewals budgets.

(That makes sense to a certain extent, because recontrol to a remote location doesn't necessarily provide an enhancement to capability.)

If you follow one of the many links (in various threads) to the HLOS, the table in the Statement of Funds Available section show a higher figure of £16.8bn over the 5 year period. Is the extra the renewals budget?

NR will probably provide the actual definitive list of CP5 items and associated costs over the period running up to April 2014, as they did in April 2009 for CP4.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sounds like it could well spell the end for Sheffield PSB, certainly, Dore Panel, and Station Panel.

Old news really - 14 regional operation centres is already the plan, it's just a matter of timing.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The second quote from Skymonster makes interesting reading. With additional links to nearby electrified lines. Is it just me or does sheffield-moorthorpe/doncaster just jump out there? Or am i being optimistic.

 

[Skymonster]

The second quote from Skymonster makes interesting reading. With additional links to nearby electrified lines. Is it just me or does sheffield-moorthorpe/doncaster just jump out there? Or am i being optimistic.

You're being optimistic!!! :roll: The North Yorkshire / Sheffield / Doncaster section is mentioned in the CP5 HLOS as being something that is expected to be in CP6

Andy

 

[YorkshireBear]

You're being optimistic!!! :roll: The North Yorkshire / Sheffield / Doncaster section is mentioned in the CP5 HLOS as being something that is expected to be in CP6

Andy

Okay well at least they are aware... suppose that is something. I like the idea of an entire electrified route from scotland to southampton. This could do wonders for intermodal.

 

[Heinz57]

As far as the MML is concerned, these are the relevent details:

 Bedford – Nottingham and Derby, and Derby – Sheffield (Midland Main Line) 25 kv AC overhead electrification;
 Leicester area capacity enhancement (freight/passenger crossing flows);
 Derby station area remodelling in conjunction with renewals;
 Sheffield station area remodelling in conjunction with renewals;
 Kettering – Corby 25 kv AC overhead electrification;
 Kettering – Corby capacity enhancement (additional double track)
 And, where applicable, on all routes loading gauge enhancement to W12

Its interesting to see how on the Nottingham side they're only going as far as Notts with the wires. But they're carrying it on at the Derby side.

Why would this be? Could this have something to do with the lack of Sheffeild - Nottingham - London services?
A little OT but slightly related, didn't MML once have London - Nottingham - Sheffeild services? However I may be wrong, can someone confirm this?

As far as I am aware, other upgrades to the MML - line speed to 125mph in some areas, Nottingham station remodeling and Nottingham area resignalling, etc - are already funded and committed.

I thought the re-modeling of the station was already under way? Shows how much out of date I am with this stuff!

 

[David Goddard]

A little OT but slightly related, didn't MML once have London - Nottingham - Sheffeild services? However I may be wrong, can someone confirm this?

A couple remain:
0634 Leeds - St Pancras International HST
0734 Leeds - St Pancras International HST Sats Only

1815 St Pancras International - Leeds HST
1930 St Pancras International - Leeds HST Mon-Fri Only

So very unbalanced but they do run.

 

[Kettledrum]

Its interesting to see how on the Nottingham side they're only going as far as Notts with the wires. But they're carrying it on at the Derby side.

Why would this be? Could this have something to do with the lack of Sheffeild - Nottingham - London services?
A little OT but slightly related, didn't MML once have London - Nottingham - Sheffeild services? However I may be wrong, can someone confirm this?

For a London - Nottingham - Sheffield service, wouldn't you have to reverse at Nottingham - and it's longer!

 

[Masboroughlad]

For a London - Nottingham - Sheffield service, wouldn't you have to reverse at Nottingham - and it's longer!

I am sure that in the 80s, quite a lot of Sheffield - St Pancras trains went via Nottingham, because they had to have a loco run around and took forever! I can remember my Dad was always fed up if it were a via Nottingham because they took so much longer?! (Or maybe it is all just because I was a little kid then?!)

 

[Failed Unit]

For a London - Nottingham - Sheffield service, wouldn't you have to reverse at Nottingham - and it's longer!

They exist really to get stock from Leeds and provide Nottingham with early services from Sheffield as the Liverpool and Manchester services don't get to Nottingham very early.

 

[Skymonster]

A couple remain:
0634 Leeds - St Pancras International HST
0734 Leeds - St Pancras International HST Sats Only

1815 St Pancras International - Leeds HST
1930 St Pancras International - Leeds HST Mon-Fri Only

So very unbalanced but they do run.

Most Nottingham-London fasts are on HSTs. HSTs are maintained at Leeds Neville Hill. There are very few Sheffield-Nottingham-London services because of the need to reverse in Nottingham. Hence the few services that remain, and most have a 10+ minute dwell time in Nottingham. It's good that almost all Nottingham-London services originate in Nottingham - it makes getting a seat out of Nottngham much easier!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought the re-modeling of the station was already under way? Shows how much out of date I am with this stuff!

They've done the footbridge and the new multi-storey car park, and they're starting on the NET tram overbridge, but the serious work (splitting platform 4 into two, new platform, close the station front to cars, new booking office, remodelled track, signalling, etc) is next Summer when there's an almost total blockade of the station for 12 weeks

Andy

 

[Philip Elliott]

A little OT but slightly related, didn't MML once have London - Nottingham - Sheffeild services? However I may be wrong, can someone confirm this?

Yes, there used to be St. P - Nottingham - Sheffield - Leeeds/Bradford services via Melton & Edwalton and were the fastest to Nottingham (having avoided Leicester completely)

 

[dalmahoyhill]

On a slight aside what do you think the Meridians could be cascaded to?

My thoughts would be replacing Edinburgh glasgow-Aberdeen Inverness with them, its an intercity route not a turbostar route.

Kill IEP and use meridian on the south devon lines?
Marches line?

 

[HSTEd]

T633 Atkins says that electrification should be around £1m per track mile, another report says roughly half that, but I put the Midland Main Line electrification at ~380 track miles at most, so where is the rest of the £500m cost going?

Does this include new trains or have costs gone up yet again

EDIT:

That T633 Atkins study on rail electrification puts a figure of ~£250m on the Midland Main Line electrification, and £250m is not enough to replace the current diesel fleet with electrics. (That is what, 120 carriages if they are lucky?)

 

[cogload]

Dont forget the Government is worrying about an election coming up.

Let's see if there's any real money on the table.

A few days ago there all sorts of fantastic promises of care schemes for old people but there was no timescale and no meney actually allocated.

In short, before we get too excited it may be pie in the sky.

An election being 3 years away...coming up?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

An election being 3 years away...coming up?

Exactly, and if they want to be re-elected they will have to show some progress - so I think with almost 3 years to go, we will see good progress. They can not just make empty promises

 

[snail]

Exactly, and if they want to be re-elected they will have to show some progress - so I think with almost 3 years to go, we will see good progress. They can not just make empty promises

No we won't. CP5 doesn't start until 2014. They are only now confirming some of the CP4 commitments.

 

[cle]

If they're adding an extra car, there might be some platform extensions required. That would cost. There could be some extra track duplication too as it's 2-4 tracks variably.

And the Corby line is being doubled and 'enhanced' - whatever that means. Surely it can't mean getting 2tph from St P as supposedly they cart fresh air, so I think it's the first hint towards Thameslink up to Corby, possibly at 2tph.

I wonder if Bedford will be getting any improvements due to E/W? It may be seeing 1 more tph from the Marston Vale (one E/W, one local) - both presumably terminating in the bay. And I think Thameslink frequencies will increase a bit too once the works are done.

 

[bnsf734]

Once the Oxford - Bedford and Ketttering -Corby line is rebuilt and electrified the obvious passenger service would be an Oxford - Corby service.

Maybe 1 TPH Oxford - Bletchley or Bedford and then 1 TPH Oxford -Corby on the other half hour.

 

[tbtc]

T633 Atkins says that electrification should be around £1m per track mile, another report says roughly half that, but I put the Midland Main Line electrification at ~380 track miles at most, so where is the rest of the £500m cost going?

Does this include new trains or have costs gone up yet again

There are infrastructure improvements on the MML to account for too - like remodelling of Sheffield station. It's not just wires and coaches.

Once the Oxford - Bedford and Ketttering -Corby line is rebuilt and electrified the obvious passenger service would be an Oxford - Corby service.

Maybe 1 TPH Oxford - Bletchley or Bedford and then 1 TPH Oxford -Corby on the other half hour.

That would make sense, and free up St Pancras capacity for more services to the East Midlands.

With the connection to Bletchley/ Oxford, I expect more EMT services to stop at Bedford after electrification.

 

[HSTEd]

So to run the current EMT timetable on the core sections of the route, (2tph Sheffield, 2tph Nottingham and 1tph Corby right?) how many sets do you need?

I make it about 8 for Nottingham, 3 for Corby and 10 for Sheffield, but 21/22 (with a spare) sets seems so much smaller than the current EMT fleet, even when you add in three diesel sets for the Derby via Corby and Leeds trains.

 

[TheBigD]

Off peak you need...

Sheffield fasts 5 x 7car 222
Sheffield semi fast 6 x 5 car 222
Nottingham fasts 5 x HST
Nottingham stopper 5 x 5 car 222
Corby 3 x 5 car 222

 

[cle]

Ideally they need 6 paths up the MML after this is all sorted.

2 Sheffield, 2 Nottingham and 2 other - one Corby and another Derby perhaps, making slow calls.

Are you guys suggesting abandoning direct London Corby services so that Corby can go on E/W instead? It covers any local journeys but I'm nor sure of the demand from Corby to Oxford (ha!) as it wouldn't even stop at MK.

I'd suggest running MK - Marston - Corby perhaps. I'd rather a Reading/Oxford train run to Nottingham - again this could take up smaller stops meaning ex-London trains can skip-stop adjacent places more.

 

[Heinz57]

A couple remain:
0634 Leeds - St Pancras International HST
0734 Leeds - St Pancras International HST Sats Only

1815 St Pancras International - Leeds HST
1930 St Pancras International - Leeds HST Mon-Fri Only

So very unbalanced but they do run.

So there are still a few then. But not many. Thanks for the infomation.

For a London - Nottingham - Sheffield service, wouldn't you have to reverse at Nottingham - and it's longer!

I wasn't aware of that, sorry it must be about seven years, maybe more, since I've caught a train from Nottingham. It was a London service I caught but I wasn't sure where the proceeding station was, but I'm sure it didn't leave the way it came in.

I did once catch a MML service from Notts, not sure where it went before Notts, or why it went this way after but it went down the Erewash line, past Ilkeston and stopped at Langley Mill, it then carried on a little bit, stopped somewhere (don't know where, but it wasn't a station) for about 10 mins before it reversed and went back the way we came through Langley Mill and Ilkeston (Long Eaton bound I think) before continuting to London.

 

[kjhskj75]

I did once catch a MML service from Notts, not sure where it went before Notts, or why it went this way after but it went down the Erewash line, past Ilkeston and stopped at Langley Mill, it then carried on a little bit, stopped somewhere (don't know where, but it wasn't a station) for about 10 mins before it reversed and went back the way we came through Langley Mill and Ilkeston (Long Eaton bound I think) before continuting to London.

Looks like there was a blockage between Lenton & Trent, so you were sent via Langley Mill and reversed. There is a crossover just north of that station.

 

[Bunting14]

Looks like there was a blockage between Lenton & Trent, so you were sent via Langley Mill and reversed. There is a crossover just north of that station.

I remember that happened Christmas/New Year 2006 when they did some major work in the Beeston/Attenborough area.

On a slightly different point has there been any mention of the Dudding Hill line?

 

[kjhskj75]

On a slightly different point has there been any mention of the Dudding Hill line?

I don't think so. More importantly, neither has Gospel Oak - Barking

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Okay well at least they are aware... suppose that is something. I like the idea of an entire electrified route from scotland to southampton. This could do wonders for intermodal.

This will come in CP5 anyway (WCML-Nuneaton-Coventry-Banbury-Reading-Southampton.
Trouble is they'll have to cross on the flat at Nuneaton (and Coventry)...

 

[tbtc]

I don't think so. More importantly, neither has Gospel Oak - Barking

GOBLIN is one line I'd have put money on being wired ahead of a few of the lines that *are* getting electrified

 

[burty76]

This will come in CP5 anyway (WCML-Nuneaton-Coventry-Banbury-Reading-Southampton.
Trouble is they'll have to cross on the flat at Nuneaton (and Coventry)...

Wouldnt they go Scotland - WCML - Bletchley - Oxford - Southampton?

Thus avoiding any pathing issues at Nuneaton/Coventry.

On the slow lines all the way to Bletchley then straight over the flyover onto the Varsity Line