Midland Mainline Electrification

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pt_mad

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Seems DFT are actually thinking about MML electrification before 2020


From BBC News 28th Feb:

East Midlands rail electrification cost estimated at £500mContinue reading the main story
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The electrification of the East Midlands rail mainline would cost about £500m to complete, a Labour MP says.

The Midland Mainline is used by diesel trains while the East and West Coast mainlines are electrified.

Leicester South MP John Ashworth said the potenial cost emerged during talks with the Department for Transport.

Transport Minister Theresa Villiers said the government supported "the progressive electrification" of the network.

Mr Ashworth said the project was "vital" for the regional economy.

'More efficient'

Mrs Villiers said: "The government have made it clear that we see the progressive electrification of the rail network as an important part of our transport and environmental policy."

She added that the government would give further details on its rail industry plans in July.

"This project would lead to economic stimulus and to economic growth and immediate jobs now in Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and all the way up to Sheffield," Mr Ashworth, a Labour MP, said.

"I am calling on the minister to strike while the iron is hot and get on with it."

Transport analyst Christian Wolmar said trains on an electrified line would be cleaner, more energy efficient and faster.

He said the major cities in the East Midlands would "benefit enormously" from the project.

Electric trains already travel on the Midland Mainline up to Bedford but, after that, only diesel engines run on the track.

Network Rail has said the electrification of the route between London and the East Midlands could happen by the end of the decade.
 
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HSTEd

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It won't happen.

They will stall and stall and stall until HS2-1 opens to Birmingham at which point they will say that the impending transfer of traffic onto HS2-2 destroys the business case.
The Midland will be left to rot.
 

WatcherZero

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Whens the Midlands signalling renewal due? they prioritised GW over Midland (which had a better business case) because they could do signalling at the same time.
 

Class377/5

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Whens the Midlands signalling renewal due? they prioritised GW over Midland (which had a better business case) because they could do signalling at the same time.
They've started work already. Nottingham is being upgrade along with the move to central control point has been done for some areas.

As for the MML being done by 2020. No chance. No way we can have the ability to wire GWML, NW triangle and the Transpennie plus something else. Likely the plan would see wires continuing to be put up past these approved/announced projects.
 

swt_passenger

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Isnt that just based on the Electrification RUS which estimated cost at £510m or something like that.
Midland main line electrification is one of NR's CP5 enhancement proposals, issued last year for consideration by the DfT as part of the HLOS/SoFA process, being reviewed now in time for the July announcement.

The BBC aren't reporting anything that wasn't already going through normal procedures...

CP5 runs from 2014 to 2019 - it is therefore likely the work will not start until around 2018/19 FY, given what else is happening before then...
 

DXMachina

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There isnt any spare electric long-distance stock is there?

so it'll be either IEPs, the current DEMU fleet with added pantograph cars, redundant UK-gauge Eurostars (replaced by Siemens Velaro units) or (given MML linespeed is 110 max) another order of Class 350s ;)

I guess some freight services might go over to cl90/92 haulage in place of diesels.. who knows? depends on routing.
 

Martin222002

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There isnt any spare electric long-distance stock is there?

so it'll be either IEPs, the current DEMU fleet with added pantograph cars, redundant UK-gauge Eurostars (replaced by Siemens Velaro units) or (given MML linespeed is 110 max) another order of Class 350s ;)

I guess some freight services might go over to cl90/92 haulage in place of diesels.. who knows? depends on routing.
The MML is currently having line speed upgrades to allow for 125mph running, and personally I would want something more intercity like than 350s to replace the HSTs and 222s.

As for the Siemens Velaro's Eurostar has ordered, they are not for replacing any of there current 373s but to allow them to operate services to new European desintations.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....I guess some freight services might go over to cl90/92 haulage in place of diesels.. who knows? depends on routing.
....And how many infill schemes they can add to the programme, given that the only electrified link to the MML at the moment is the Thameslink core section (which IIRC are only passed for 377, 317, 319, 31, 33 and 73). Also, the only place on the current electrified area of the MML to change locos is Cricklewood.
 

cle

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Line speed is going up to 125mph over the next couple of years.

It's quite twisty - could they not get Pendos and activate some sections of tilt and have increased EPS line speeds? Would make it quite nippy!
 

tbtc

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I would want something more intercity like than 350s to replace the HSTs and 222s
It'll be interesting to see how a 350/4 (the new stock for Manchester Airport - Glagow/Edinburgh) feels - if it can suit that service then it would be a logical possibility for the middle/longer distance services on the MML and GEML.

Obviously London - Leicester/Derby/Nottingham is further than London - Northampton, but if the interior of these new 350s suits journeys of over an hour then I think we may have a contender (not that I think the MML will get wired any time soon, but if it is wired then these would have to be a possibility)
 

Martin222002

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It'll be interesting to see how a 350/4 (the new stock for Manchester Airport - Glagow/Edinburgh) feels - if it can suit that service then it would be a logical possibility for the middle/longer distance services on the MML and GEML.

Obviously London - Leicester/Derby/Nottingham is further than London - Northampton, but if the interior of these new 350s suits journeys of over an hour then I think we may have a contender (not that I think the MML will get wired any time soon, but if it is wired then these would have to be a possibility)
Firstly 350s carn't do 125mph, so would be slower than the 222s and HSTs once the line speed upgrades have been completed. Secondly the 350 platform is actually an obsolete design, as it doesn't meet the latest crash safety regulations, and the TPE 350s have only been allowed to be built as it has been bundled with the LM 350 order.

Whatever is ordered, and something will have to eventually be ordered to replace the HSTs on the MML, will have to be able to do 125mph and have an intercity passenger interior and layout, with the doors at the coach ends. A 125mph AC version of a 444 would possibly be acceptable, but I would prefer comfier seats in standard.
 

WatcherZero

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If it was a new order it would be a next gen model as all the current production models are end of production life (except Thameslink). Most likely IEP or cascaded 22x (due to future order by a new franchise).
 

Chris125

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It won't happen.

They will stall and stall and stall until HS2-1 opens to Birmingham at which point they will say that the impending transfer of traffic onto HS2-2 destroys the business case.
The Midland will be left to rot.
Oh please, can we have a slightly of the amateur dramatics and concentrate on a more rational assesment? The business case for electrification will have to be revised in light of HS2 but it was exceptionally good before so i see little reason to worry.

Chris
 
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WatcherZero

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The lines business case for electrification is primarily from freight access to the industrial Midlands rather than passengers.
 

NXEA!

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The MML has a very strong business case apparently, and I very much doubt it'll be impacted by HS2. It is strange why the GWML got the go ahead first - the only thing I can think of is that Adonis decided to push it through first as the business case wasn't as strong as the MML one, and that he feared that the GWML would never receive electrification, or not for a long-time but that the MML was likely to be considered in the near-future. If the MML gets the go-ahead, I think the next scheme should be the Chiltern Mainline along with the Snow Hill lines - lots of useful DMU's; 39 165's, 19 168's, 31 172's to be cascaded, and they can still use the Mark 3's on the Chiltern but use 90's instead of 67's. Not sure if it would have a strong business case though.
 

Nym

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The chiltern business case is weaker because of the age of rolling stock on the line, give it 10 years and the business case will improve, not only because of older rolling stock, but also because of an increase in rail users (again).
 

sprinterguy

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I think the next scheme should be the Chiltern Mainline along with the Snow Hill lines - lots of useful DMU's; 39 165's, 19 168's, 31 172's to be cascaded, and they can still use the Mark 3's on the Chiltern but use 90's instead of 67's. Not sure if it would have a strong business case though.
If the Chiltern Main line was to be electrified then I think that it would be extremely unlikely that the mark 3 loco hauled sets, the oldest of the rolling stock that would be replaced by a country mile, would be kept on. For a start, I believe that the 823XX DVTs are no longer compatible with class 90s as they have been modified to work with class 67s. Murmurs of Chiltern main line electrification have been cited in conjunction with the withdrawal of 165s, probably towards the end of the CP6 period (Although I would think that the 165s would have a few more years of life in them beyond that).

I agree that it would be a very useful electrification scheme to release a decent number of Turbostars many of which are in four carriage formation that would be perfectly suited to various long distance regional services.
 

Zoe

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It is strange why the GWML got the go ahead first
At the time it was said that due to recent improvements on the Midland Main Line, the Great Western electrification should be more of a priority.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....For a start, I believe that the 823XX DVTs are no longer compatible with class 90s as they have been modified to work with class 67s....
Aren't there a few DVTs in store at the moment? okay they'd need a little work by then (unless GA no longer need theirs), but you won't need the generators fitting because a 90 is electric.
 

sprinterguy

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Aren't there a few DVTs in store at the moment? okay they'd need a little work by then (unless GA no longer need theirs), but you won't need the generators fitting because a 90 is electric.
Yeah there's a few mark 3 DVTs in store, but assuming that even if the Chiltern main line is electrified in the future that it won't be until about 2024 then they would need a lot of work done to them after spending twenty years in open store (Assuming that they even survive that long)! Seems like a lot of work to go to to keep forty-odd year old trains (as they will be by then) in service when the sensible thing to do would just to be to order a squadron fleet of new EMUs.
 

Prometheus

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Line speed is going up to 125mph over the next couple of years. It's quite twisty - could they not get Pendos and activate some sections of tilt and have increased EPS line speeds? Would make it quite nippy!

Pendolinos would be an excellent choice. Coupled with resignalling, 140 mph or more might be possible.
 

sprinterguy

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Pendolinos would be an excellent choice. Coupled with resignalling, 140 mph or more might be possible.
I think that there would be definite journey time improvements from deploying tilting rolling stock on the MML, but given that even the fastest MML services have a pretty frequent stopping pattern then I don't think that 140mph running would achieve very much. Development of the APT-P found that as the maximum speed is ramped up their is an inverse exponential decrease in the rate of reduction in journey time (I.e. less time benefit the faster you go) on the existing infrastructure that we have. There'd be greater benefits to be derived from the enhanced acceleration of electric traction.
 
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David Goddard

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If the ECML is lined up to get IEP then the Mk4s will be spare - sufficient to move onto MML metals and plenty of life left in them.

The alternative of course is to build additional pantograph cars for the 222s, as is planned for 220/221 fleets.
 

tbtc

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I wasn't aware that the 98 miles gap in stops for some fast services from St Pancras was considered frequent ;).
Compared to the ECML (first stop Doncaster or York on a number of services) or the WCML (first stop Crewe/ Stoke/ Preston on a number of services), 60% of MML services stop in Luton, and then there's a couple of stops each hour at Wellingborough/ Kettering/ Market Harborough... 140mph would be a waste of time with the current stopping patterns - acceleration is more important.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the ECML is lined up to get IEP then the Mk4s will be spare - sufficient to move onto MML metals and plenty of life left in them.

The alternative of course is to build additional pantograph cars for the 222s, as is planned for 220/221 fleets.
I think that the plan was for the ECML to retain 225s, and a lower number of IEPs to be built?

At the time it was said that due to recent improvements on the Midland Main Line, the Great Western electrification should be more of a priority.
By "recent improvements" I can only think that you mean the 222s (that could easily be transferred elsewhere) - the MML hasn't had the money spent on it that the WCML has in terms of infrastructure (in fact things are worse in some respects, given the cramped state of MML platforms at St Pancras
 

Bridge189

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Yes the current plan is for the MK4s to stay put on the ECML indefinitely. I personally can see the 222s from the MML being the HST replacement on EC as it makes perfect sense. The longer 8/9 carriage versions could cover the current highland and Edinburgh HST runs and the shorter ones could do the York stoppers, Harrogate etc allowing the 225s to do more Newcastle,Leeds and Edinburgh runs.
 

markydh

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That's the current plan but if a company like Virgin were to win the East Coast franchise, I'm surely not the only one that thinks 225s will be given the heave ho...
 
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