Midland Mainline Meridian Coach Letters

[hexagon789]

Would anyone happen to know how the 222s were lettered as new under Midland Mainline? I believe it was different to the current lettering possibly because sets were originally all 4 or 9-car.

A search on Google merely added to the confusion as one source implied the Motor Composite was Coach H (I believe it's presently D) which seemed a bit strange. Another source seemed to suggested the Motor Composite was G and the Driving Motor First was J.

If anyone could confirm the lettering for:
A four-car set
Two four-cars in multi
A nine-car set

Thanks

 

[43055]

For EMT/EMR the lettering is as follows (standard followed by first).
4 car - ABDG
5 car - ABCDG
7 car - ABCDFGH
10 car - ABCDG+NMLKJ

Looking at my dad's training notes for 222's the 7 cars were once lettered ACDEFGJ which could be transition between 9 and 7 car?

I'm not sure about MML days.

 

[hexagon789]

For EMT/EMR the lettering is as follows (standard followed by first).
4 car - ABDG
5 car - ABCDG
7 car - ABCDFGH
10 car - ABCDG+NMLKJ

Looking at my dad's training notes for 222's the 7 cars were once lettered ACDEFGJ which could be transition between 9 and 7 car?

I'm not sure about MML days.

Thanks anyway, there are similarities to what I could find but I think they must've made a few tweaks when the Nines went to Eight then Seven and the Fours became Five.

Hopefully someone will have the exact MM arrangement but I appreciate your help

 

[43055]

If the sevens were once eight coaches then maybe they were coach B?

 

[hexagon789]

If the sevens were once eight coaches then maybe they were coach B?

The sevens were all nine to start with, and lost one Standard to some 4-cars making 4 and and 8-car sets. The now 8-car then lost another standard to make all the fours into 5-car with one 8-car also becoming a 5-car.

It's this conversion that seems to have changed the lettering or perhaps it hasn't. It's more a case of sources of the period refer to Coach J as first class, Coach G as first class, even a Coach H in the four-car possibly the Composite. These don't appear to make sense, certainly I wonder if the Coach H reference is a typo and it should be "G" given they are next to each other on the keyboard.

I'd just like a list confirming whether the lettering changed or not really to try and make sense of it all.

 

[43055]

The sevens were all nine to start with, and lost one Standard to some 4-cars making 4 and and 8-car sets. The now 8-car then lost another standard to make all the fours into 5-car with one 8-car also becoming a 5-car.

It's this conversion that seems to have changed the lettering or perhaps it hasn't. It's more a case of sources of the period refer to Coach J as first class, Coach G as first class, even a Coach H in the four-car possibly the Composite. These don't appear to make sense, certainly I wonder if the Coach H reference is a typo and it should be "G" given they are next to each other on the keyboard.

I'd just like a list confirming whether the lettering changed or not really to try and make sense of it all.

So I tried to have a look for anything on the formations/lettering and I have come across a post on here which says that coach H was labelled as coach J on 7 car 222 and HSTs in 2012. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/anyone-have-an-east-midlands-hst-seating-plan.96717/

This also ties in with this website which shows the the 4 car sets were simply labelledas ABCD at around the same time. http://railwayuk.50webs.com/about222.html
The current coach formations of the class 222 fleets are shown below.

East Midlands Trains - seven car class 222:

• Coach A - Standard Class with driving cab and reserve-able space for four bikes
• Coach C - Standard Class
• Coach D - Standard Class
• Coach E - Standard Class with Shop/Buffet counter
• Coach F - First Class
• Coach G - First Class
• Coach J - First Class and driving cab

East Midlands Trains – five car class 222:

• Coach A - Standard Class with driving cab and reserve-able space for four bikes
• Coach B - Standard Class (not present in four car formation)
• Coach C - Standard Class
• Coach D - Standard Class / First Class
• Coach G - First Class and driving cab

East Midlands Trains - four car class 222:

• Coach A - First Class and driving cab
• Coach B - First Class / Standard Class
• Coach C - Standard Class
• Coach D - Standard Class with driving cab and reserve-able space for bikes

Given this information could it be that the 9 cars were simply letterd ABCDEFGHJ and if 4 cars were ABCD could G or H being a composite be in a double set followed by J to line up with the 9 car sets?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Seeing the reference to HST coach H the following observation may be relevant, although dated. When there was an all HST intercity fleet, the set used on the 'Master Cutler' had an additional TFO (and one less TSO). This was the only set that had a coach 'H', the other sets having G then J.

On another subject, it's mentioned above that 2x5 car Meridians are planned to be A > G then N > J, i.e., with G next to N. I have never seen reference to this anywhere and it seems strange as the platform indicators show only which coaches are first class by letter. Most people would, I suggest, position themselves on the platform on the assumption that coaches carrying letters of the alphabet would be marshalled in alphabetic order. I certainly did, and assumed that the 'reversed' second set was due to having gone. or not gone to Nottingham from Etches Park without the system knowing.

 

[hexagon789]

So I tried to have a look for anything on the formations/lettering and I have come across a post on here which says that coach H was labelled as coach J on 7 car 222 and HSTs in 2012. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/anyone-have-an-east-midlands-hst-seating-plan.96717/

This also ties in with this website which shows the the 4 car sets were simply labelledas ABCD at around the same time. http://railwayuk.50webs.com/about222.html
The current coach formations of the class 222 fleets are shown below.

East Midlands Trains - seven car class 222:

• Coach A - Standard Class with driving cab and reserve-able space for four bikes
• Coach C - Standard Class
• Coach D - Standard Class
• Coach E - Standard Class with Shop/Buffet counter
• Coach F - First Class
• Coach G - First Class
• Coach J - First Class and driving cab

East Midlands Trains – five car class 222:

• Coach A - Standard Class with driving cab and reserve-able space for four bikes
• Coach B - Standard Class (not present in four car formation)
• Coach C - Standard Class
• Coach D - Standard Class / First Class
• Coach G - First Class and driving cab

East Midlands Trains - four car class 222:

• Coach A - First Class and driving cab
• Coach B - First Class / Standard Class
• Coach C - Standard Class
• Coach D - Standard Class with driving cab and reserve-able space for bikes

Given this information could it be that the 9 cars were simply letterd ABCDEFGHJ and if 4 cars were ABCD could G or H being a composite be in a double set followed by J to line up with the 9 car sets?

Something like that I think. I'm going to have another search myself and try and make sense of it all!

 

[hexagon789]

Seeing the reference to HST coach H the following observation may be relevant, although dated. When there was an all HST intercity fleet, the set used on the 'Master Cutler' had an additional TFO (and one less TSO). This was the only set that had a coach 'H', the other sets having G then J.

That seemed to last well into Midland Mainline days, I've seen a set with 3 TF (Trailer First) in videos dated \2002.

 

[43055]

That seemed to last well into Midland Mainline days, I've seen a set with 3 TF (Trailer First) in videos dated \2002.

Seeing the reference to HST coach H the following observation may be relevant, although dated. When there was an all HST intercity fleet, the set used on the 'Master Cutler' had an additional TFO (and one less TSO). This was the only set that had a coach 'H', the other sets having G then J.

On another subject, it's mentioned above that 2x5 car Meridians are planned to be A > G then N > J, i.e., with G next to N. I have never seen reference to this anywhere and it seems strange as the platform indicators show only which coaches are first class by letter. Most people would, I suggest, position themselves on the platform on the assumption that coaches carrying letters of the alphabet would be marshalled in alphabetic order. I certainly did, and assumed that the 'reversed' second set was due to having gone. or not gone to Nottingham from Etches Park without the system knowing.

I watches a video from 2004 this morning and it showed a HST with 3 TF's. I literally thought it was a one off.

On the subject of double sets here is a snip from the seating plan for the set's showing the coach letters. I have seen several different ways to reference the formation down to just saying first class is available or in the center etc. to having the letters of the formation ie A-G N-J. Could the reason behind having the rear set 'flipped' due to having a coach J in the past which was a first class coach?

 

[hexagon789]

I watches a video from 2004 this morning and it showed a HST with 3 TF's. I literally thought it was a one off.

On the subject of double sets here is a snip from the seating plan for the set's showing the coach letters. I have seen several different ways to reference the formation down to just saying first class is available or in the center etc. to having the letters of the formation ie A-G N-J. Could the reason behind having the rear set 'flipped' due to having a coach J in the past which was a first class coach?
View attachment 80367

It's possible, I did find that the HSTs changed their lettering.

In 2004 they were ABCDEFGJ, A-E Std Class, F the Buffet Car, G/J first class. The additional TF in the Master Cutler set being "H".

Skip to 2006 and the lettering becomes ABCDEGJM - ABCDE Std class, G the buffet, J/M First Class with "L" being used for the extra TF in the Master Cutler.

I think that gives credence to my supposition that they changed the lettering when they started reducing the 9-car 222s and lengthening the 4-car.