Midland Mainline Sunday Service

[DanTrain]

Hi,

Looking at trains to London from Sheffield, it would appear to be both quicker and cheaper on a Sunday to change at Doncaster than to take the direct service to London, calling at all shacks. Is there a reason why EMT run such a dire Sunday service compared to other InterCity operators: both Sheffield and Nottingham get an irregular 1 train an hour (ish) service, whereas the ECML and WCML operate similar frequencies to any other day of the week? It’s not like the East Midlands and Sheffield stop on a Sunday any less than anywhere else, so why the dismal service?

 

[TheBigD]

It's been like it for the last decade and half and more. I'd imagine that South of Bedford is planned as a two track railway on Sunday mornings to allow for engineering work but that's just a guess. Hopefully the new franchise will see an improvement but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[cactustwirly]

The Sunday timetable is absolutely ridiculous!
The earliest northbound train from Leicester is 1020!
It really needs sorting out in the next franchise!

The GWML operates a 2 track timetable on Sundays, but manages to retain most of the normal Monday - Saturday frequencies.

 

[LowLevel]

The morning service is all engineering related. The afternoon sees fast trains introduced during the busiest period. Hopefully things will change.

 

[paddy1]

It's not just the lack of frequency and late starts that make the Sunday service on the MML really dire, but also the short trains with many of the all shacks hourly Sheffield or Nottingham's being runs as five car only (or sometimes even just four car) Meridians which results in serious overcrowding and a really squalid journey experience. For that reason alone, I always avoid travelling on the MML on a Sunday.

 

[DanTrain]

It's not just the lack of frequency and late starts that make the Sunday service on the MML really dire, but also the short trains with many of the all shacks hourly Sheffield or Nottingham's being runs as five car only (or sometimes even just four car) Meridians which results in serious overcrowding and a really squalid journey experience. For that reason alone, I always avoid travelling on the MML on a Sunday.

That’s just stupid, with fewer trains running there should be more stock around not less, what would be the harm in getting out the HSTs/7 car 222s at least, they don’t even need any more staff!

It's been like it for the last decade and half and more. I'd imagine that South of Bedford is planned as a two track railway on Sunday mornings to allow for engineering work but that's just a guess. Hopefully the new franchise will see an improvement but I'm not holding my breath.

How much engineering work needs to be done on London-Bedford? Why can’t it just run 4-track and then be amended where nessesary?

 

[70014IronDuke]

There are two issues here:
a) the MML service on Sundays, from morning until the late afternoon peak, seems designed to please passengers from intermediate stations between St Pancras and Leicester, with the Derby, Nottingham and Chesterfield/Sheffield folk having to put up with all these stops (and Loughborough, EMP, Long Eaton and Beeston to boot).

This makes for very slow journeys from the main inter-city stations beyond Leicester - but maybe the traffic doesn't justify better?

b) short train formations on even these services for the loadings they experience.

This seems incomprehensible on a Sunday - or plain penny-pinching?

Presumably, once electrification is complete to Corby, there will be at least a third electric service introduced each hour, which could allow one express to follow it, perhaps stopping at just LAP and Kettering to pick up those who want to go further north?

 

[38Cto15E]

Do EMT have to plan their Sunday train times on how many staff they think will be working?
In other words, if staff do not wish to work on a Sunday, there is no point including too many trains into the timetable.

 

[cactustwirly]

That’s just stupid, with fewer trains running there should be more stock around not less, what would be the harm in getting out the HSTs/7 car 222s at least, they don’t even need any more staff!

How much engineering work needs to be done on London-Bedford? Why can’t it just run 4-track and then be amended where nessesary?

There are 7 HST sets out on Sundays, and many other services are 2x5 or 7 car meridians.

 

[TheBigD]

There are 7 HST sets out on Sundays, and many other services are 2x5 or 7 car meridians.

On a normal Sunday there are 8 HSTs in service. 1 set finishes with EMT around 1600 and then goes on hire to LNER on the 1845 ex Leeds. The former Grand Central sets are not booked to be in service on a Sunday.

 

[cactustwirly]

On a normal Sunday there are 8 HSTs in service. 1 set finishes with EMT around 1600 and then goes on hire to LNER on the 1845 ex Leeds. The former Grand Central sets are not booked to be in service on a Sunday.

Technically it's 8, but the 8th set comes out when the the other set goes on hire to LNER, so only 7 are out at once.

 

[43074]

There are two issues here:
a) the MML service on Sundays, from morning until the late afternoon peak, seems designed to please passengers from intermediate stations between St Pancras and Leicester, with the Derby, Nottingham and Chesterfield/Sheffield folk having to put up with all these stops (and Loughborough, EMP, Long Eaton and Beeston to boot).

I'd suggest it's more to do with being the most economic way of serving everyone whilst being reasonably economical with train paths during two track times South of Bedford - hence a half hourly stopping service, one from Nottingham and one from Sheffield achieves this and provides everyone with a service during the morning, albeit very a slow one as you point out.

b) short train formations on even these services for the loadings they experience.

This seems incomprehensible on a Sunday - or plain penny-pinching?

Presumably, once electrification is complete to Corby, there will be at least a third electric service introduced each hour, which could allow one express to follow it, perhaps stopping at just LAP and Kettering to pick up those who want to go further north?

To be fair to EMT, they recently added (May 2017?) three extra services in the early afternoon starting from Corby and allowing three Sheffield services to run fast from Market Harborough achieving just as you suggest, they have also improved some of the local Sunday services so I don't think it's penny pinching, it's just there's no incentive to improve things beyond already achieved at this stage in the franchise.

How much engineering work needs to be done on London-Bedford? Why can’t it just run 4-track and then be amended where nessesary?

Because they would probably end up cancelling them every Sunday to make the amended timetable work, especially with MML upgrade work ongoing South of Kettering. The fast ones on Sunday afternoon are the first to be removed at the moment, let alone considering adding others.

 

[DanTrain]

This makes for very slow journeys from the main inter-city stations beyond Leicester - but maybe the traffic doesn't justify better?

That's just a chicken-and-egg situation, the slower the journey, the more people either drive or go via Doncaster/Tamworth, and so the lower the loadings are and the slower EMT/National Rail feel they can make the service. It's not like the East Midlands magically has 50% less demand for London services on a Sunday compared to a Saturday!

 

[Andy Pacer]

I did a move from Luton to Sheffield on 2nd Jan, it was cheaper to go via London and Doncaster, and didn't take a lot longer either!

 

[railneighbour]

Today's timetable was made worse with single track running on the slow line between Wellingborough and Sharnbrook, which adds at least ten minutes to the journey.

 

[DanTrain]

I did a move from Luton to Sheffield on 2nd Jan, it was cheaper to go via London and Doncaster, and didn't take a lot longer either!

Exactly the sort of insanity that made me start this thread! At least if they’re going to run painfully slow services they could at least be competitive on price - they charge a fortune and MegaTrain doesn’t work on Sundays so there aren’t even any £1 specials (or whatever price they are now).

 

[tommy2215]

What I find annoying is how late Northbound EMT Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield trains start.... a very large amount of people travel between those stations yet the first EMT from Derby to Sheffield is not until 10:52! Surely EMT could run an earlier northbound train starting from Derby using one of the trains that go from Etches Park depot to Sheffield on a Sunday morning.

 

[DanTrain]

What I find annoying is how late Northbound EMT Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield trains start.... a very large amount of people travel between those stations yet the first EMT from Derby to Sheffield is not until 10:52! Surely EMT could run an earlier northbound train starting from Derby using one of the trains that go from Etches Park depot to Sheffield on a Sunday morning.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...0/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=EM

I think that's a function of driver's clocking on in Derby and Train Managers in Sheffield, but I agree that one of the 3 earlier ECS movements could quite easily be pressed into action with a bit of initiative. Trouble is EMT tend to be quite short on initiative...

 

[cactustwirly]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...0/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=EM

I think that's a function of driver's clocking on in Derby and Train Managers in Sheffield, but I agree that one of the 3 earlier ECS movements could quite easily be pressed into action with a bit of initiative. Trouble is EMT tend to be quite short on initiative...

Or run an earlier ECS Etches Park - Leicester, then run a 0930 ish service Leicester - Sheffield, would make a huge difference

 

[cle]

Overall, this country still runs Sundays like something from the 50s. There should be a standard weekend timetable, like in many countries. Sunday is one of the busiest travel days, especially long distance.

 

[43096]

Trouble is EMT tend to be quite short on initiative...

I would suggest that is a grossly unfair and unwarranted statement.

 

[Iskra]

Overall, this country still runs Sundays like something from the 50s. There should be a standard weekend timetable, like in many countries. Sunday is one of the busiest travel days, especially long distance.

Can you provide any evidence for this statement please?

 

[cactustwirly]

I would suggest that is a grossly unfair and unwarranted statement.

Really?
In what way have EMT been 'innovative'

 

[cactustwirly]

Can you provide any evidence for this statement please?

Anecdotally, the trains are very busy on a Sunday, whereas on a Weekday/Saturday it's easier to get a seat

 

[Iskra]

Anecdotally, the trains are very busy on a Sunday, whereas on a Weekday/Saturday it's easier to get a seat

Well from my experience of working at a mainline station with long distance services, Sunday late afternoon/evening was busy, but that was about it.

I think perhaps trains feel busier because there are less of them?

Midweek mornings were a hell of a lot busier.

 

[43096]

Really?
In what way have EMT been 'innovative'

Initiative was the word used.

 

[Iskra]

Really?
In what way have EMT been 'innovative'

GC HST's?

HST's to Skegness?

Completely re-working the intercity timetable to improve it?

What did the Romans ever do for us?

 

[cactustwirly]

Well from my experience of working at a mainline station with long distance services, Sunday late afternoon/evening was busy, but that was about it.

I think perhaps trains feel busier because there are less of them?

Midweek mornings were a hell of a lot busier.

Sunday mornings are extremely busy, it's not uncommon for HSTs to be standing room only between Leicester and London.
Especially on the 1050 LDS - STP

 

[cactustwirly]

GC HST's?

HST's to Skegness?

Completely re-working the intercity timetable to improve it?

What did the Romans ever do for us?

Ok maybe they were innovative at the start of the franchise, but they've done jack all since!

The GC HSTs don't count, they were forced to use them for the upgraded Thameslink timetable, and they're not used that much, especially when you still have rammed 222s going to London, whilst the HSTs sit idle!

 

[cle]

Can you provide any evidence for this statement please?

I didn't realize this was a courtroom - but luckily, you're on the internet if you want to hunt around.

Perhaps the afternoon/evening services are busier as there are actually more services - as others have noted on this thread, they start very late on Sundays.

But overall, it's consistently said that Sundays are the busiest days for inter-city services. Not passenger or station usage overall, but the mid-week volumes belong to short and medium distance commuting. If you look at long-distance weighted stations like Euston or Kings Cross, as opposed to Fenchurch Street or Marylebone, you'll see that weekends are just as busy - and with less spikes throughout the day.