"Midnight Trains, halte mein Bier": German Green Party proposes London to Warsaw, London to Rome sleeper

[StephenHunter]

The map also has London-Warsaw, it seems.

As the minority part in a coalition, they will still have a fairly big influence on a key EU member. If it hadn't been for Germany allowing Nightjet to take over CNL's operations, we would be in a lot worse straits for sleepers.

Given that this is a German political party they likely assume the uppity British will fall in line and join Schengen.

This isn't going to happen overnight and Boris Johnson isn't going to be PM for ever. Are we going to join Schengen? Probably not. But the next government may be more relaxed about on-train border checks.

 

[Bald Rick]

But the next government may be more relaxed about on-train border checks.

Whilst I very much wish they would be, the fact that no U.K. Government has been relaxed about on board border checks for about a quarter of a century should provide an indication of what the next Government’s attitude will be.

 

[Aictos]

Whilst I very much wish they would be, the fact that no U.K. Government has been relaxed about on board border checks for about a quarter of a century should provide an indication of what the next Government’s attitude will be.

I agree, although I feel that not joining the Schengen agreement while we were in the EU was a error of judgement as it could have superseded the common travel agreement between Ireland and the UK with better benefits as it would mean no borders between any member of the EU although of course each member should be free to set border controls in time of need eg disease, illegal immigration etc...

The fact that no UK Govt since the Schengen agreement took effect has made any effect to take steps to relax border controls in any way, I can't see the next Govt or the next one having any interest in reducing or relaxing border controls.

Therefore I think the chances of London to EU sleepers have as much chance of happening as there is of Boris Johnson announcing he's a closet Labour supporter and is their next leader.

That's my own view though

 

[AlbertBeale]

However Birmingham New Street and Birmingham Moor Street are a lot more closer then Paris's Gare Du Nord and Gare Du Est which I wouldn't say the two Paris stations are almost next door to each other more like London Euston to London Kings Cross, also the two Birmingham stations are very very easy to interchange at.

1. French grammatical pedantry point - It's Paris Gare de l'Est, not Du Est.

2. Missed joke point - I wasn't referring to changing between Birmingham New Street and B Moor St, rather, to changing at/within New Street (taking my cue from the many people on this forum who - understandably - complain about the hassle navigating New Street these days).

3. Geography point - I've always felt, subjectively, that Nord and Est in Paris, though obviously not like KX and StP, don't "feel" as far apart as KX and Euston in London. Or maybe it's just the relief that despite not having day-to-day familiarity with that Paris connection (unlike the London one which is on my routine patch), I've always found it seems much more of a doddle than I have a right to expect.

 

[duncombec]

Given that this is a German political party they likely assume the uppity British will fall in line and join Schengen.

Most German political parties are well aware of Britain and how unlikely we are to join Schengen. I doubt they'd do more than roll their eyes, and certainly won't waste time encouraging us to join.

In any case, Schengen wouldn't affect our ability to do on train passport controls were we so minded: I had a very efficient control on board a service from Dresden to Prague before the Czech Republic joined the Schengen agreement.

Despite the long-running joke, I've never found German border officials to be anything other than polite and affable - unlike British passport control at Brussels, which on my one visit there was staffed by one of the rudest individuals I've ever had the misfortune to meet.

 

[Sm5]

London to Warsaw as a sleeper would have been a great idea.. in 2003.

London Victoria (no the other one), coach station, used to see many dozens of coaches a day from Eastern Europe, with around 50-80 inbound travellers per bus taking that 24 hour journey.

it was also a very popular parcel transport too (until the Poles got organised many buses were transporting produce for that network of “polish shops” in the country too), and much trading was done outside the coach station ! (Been there done both).

its pretty much a right Of passage until c2012 for any Eastern European youngsters first UK trip to be arriving by coach.

i’m sure many would have welcomed a rail alternative, and a bit of foreign tourist use too. I doubt it would appeal to British travellers though.

Today I think that boat really has sailed.

 

[StephenHunter]

It would appeal to Poles living here though wishing to visit their families.

 

[Bald Rick]

It would appeal to Poles living here though wishing to visit their families.

A very few of them, perhaps. 99% of them would use Wizz / Ryanair as they do now, as it’s much cheaper and much quicker.

 

[Austriantrain]

A very few of them, perhaps. 99% of them would use Wizz / Ryanair as they do now, as it’s much cheaper and much quicker.

I actually don’t doubt that at least some sleeper routes from London (probably not to Warsaw, more likely Italy and Spain) would find enough passengers. It’s just that night trains are expensive to operate as it is; add the channel tunnel/border/rolling stock issues and it becomes unaffordable.

 

[43096]

It would appeal to Poles living here though wishing to visit their families.

What's your evidence for that?

 

[Bald Rick]

I actually don’t doubt that at least some sleeper routes from London (probably not to Warsaw, more likely Italy and Spain) would find enough passengers. It’s just that night trains are expensive to operate as it is; add the channel tunnel/border/rolling stock issues and it becomes unaffordable.

But this is the point. If you made them free, there would be plenty of prospective passengers. If you charged a price that reflected the cost of provision, no one would use them (or, at least, very few). If the fare is set somewhere in between, ie a price the market will bear to get close to filling the train up, then it will lose a ton of money. No private company is going to do that, and I’d be surprised if any Government would be willing to subsidise at the rate required (likely several hundred pounds per single passenger trip).

 

[StephenHunter]

Logic rather than market research.

As for Channel Tunnel rolling stock, anything cleared for the Gotthard Tunnel is inherently clearable for the shorter Channel Tunnel, isn’t it?

 

[Bald Rick]

Logic rather than market research.

As for Channel Tunnel rolling stock, anything cleared for the Gotthard Tunnel is inherently clearable for the shorter Channel Tunnel, isn’t it?

Potentially. Although it won’t go further than St Pancras.

 

[Austriantrain]

But this is the point. If you made them free, there would be plenty of prospective passengers. If you charged a price that reflected the cost of provision, no one would use them (or, at least, very few). If the fare is set somewhere in between, ie a price the market will bear to get close to filling the train up, then it will lose a ton of money. No private company is going to do that, and I’d be surprised if any Government would be willing to subsidise at the rate required (likely several hundred pounds per single passenger trip).

It wasn’t my intention to contradict you… I completely agree.

 

[43096]

Logic rather than market research.

Also known as "guesswork".

 

[StephenHunter]

I agree as well. It's going to need subsidy.

Midnight Trains look to be aiming for a higher-end traveller in any event and will probably charge more. Their competition will be with the regular airlines, not Riotscare and Queasyjet.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's going to need subsidy.

But who will pay it?

 

[AlbertBeale]

But who will pay it?

Ecological necessities and public service provision shouldn't be tied to "the market" - it's that approach which is destroying the planet.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ecological necessities and public service provision shouldn't be tied to "the market" - it's that approach which is destroying the planet.

No doubt, but public money would be much better spent subsidising day trains, where you’d get an order of magnitude more benefit for the money spent.

 

[Austriantrain]

No doubt, but public money would be much better spent subsidising day trains, where you’d get an order of magnitude more benefit for the money spent.

To add to it: we will realistically never be able to find an alternative to planes on longer-distance travel within Europe (the often-mentioned London - Barcelona or Paris - Warsaw). On these routes, the only way forward is to reduce the environmental impact of planes and to include environmental costs into ticket prices.

Investment into rail is - besides the obvious, i.e. in conurbations- much more useful on shorter distances (the 300-700 Km bracket) where there really is a serious chance to avoid air travel and at the same time shift travel away from cars towards trains. Since demand there is also vastly greater than on longer distances, the ecological effects are much greater too.

This is not to say that I am against night trains. But they will always remain a (useful) niche.

 

[StephenHunter]

Paris-Berlin-Warsaw-Minsk-Moscow was running, albeit once a week only, before the pandemic. With rather higher fares and no Interrail coverage.

Ecological necessities and public service provision shouldn't be tied to "the market" - it's that approach which is destroying the planet.

Although if people can make bank from the ecological necessities, that does help with take up.

 

[Aictos]

No doubt, but public money would be much better spent subsidising day trains, where you’d get an order of magnitude more benefit for the money spent.

However where feasible OBB should be encouraged to operate sleepers as part of their Nightjet routes, this does mean that proposals such as London to Warsaw should be ignored as in that case it be better to have a much later Eurostar connecting with with a sleeper in Brussels.

 

[30907]

Paris-Berlin-Warsaw-Minsk-Moscow was running, albeit once a week only, before the pandemic. With rather higher fares and no Interrail coverage.

As was Moscow-Nice - in both cases reduced from its previous level, and with a rather niche market AIUI, essentially for travel from/to Russia.

 

[HSTEd]

Calais Frethun-Warsaw is 15:49 presently, with the 0605 departure on Monday arriving about 21:54 (all times local obviously)

That includes 1h41 of waiting at various tations with the changes.

I think an early morning day-train departure could reach Warsaw at a reasonable time in the evening, and being a day train would serve stations in Belgium and Germany in addition to Poland.

Border formalities still make it basically worthless in an economic sense, but its going tobe more economic than an enormously expensive to operate night train

 

[Austriantrain]

Border formalities still make it basically worthless in an economic sense, but its going tobe more economic than an enormously expensive to operate night train

The good thing about day trains is that you can use them for various intermediate journeys. There doesn’t need to be a lot of demand between Paris and Berlin to make a day train viable; it will still be full end to end.

(I wrote Berlin and not Warsaw because I don’t think that there is rolling stock that can use a French LGV and run in Poland yet, though conceivably a DB 407 might be approved there).

 

[daodao]

German border officials to be anything other than polite and affable

My recollection of German border guards on a rail journey from Ostend to Moscow via Berlin was very different. They were officious, armed, dressed in military style uniforms and adcompanied by Rottweilers. In addition to demanding paperwork in a very brusque manner, they patrolled the platforms closely to make sure there were no unauthorised exits at the border stations. There were a number of border crossings on that journey so we encountered these border guards on several occasions.

There is absolutely no point in running sleeper services via the Channel Tunnel because:

• the need for thorough border checks means disturbed journeys during the night
• the limited British loading gauge is very restrictive and standard sleepers couldn't be used
• distances to most destinations are too great and it is much cheaper and quicker to fly

We will realistically never be able to find an alternative to planes on longer-distance travel within Europe (the often-mentioned London - Barcelona or Paris - Warsaw). On these routes, the only way forward is to reduce the environmental impact of planes and to include environmental costs into ticket prices.

Ryanair and Wizzair are the future for longer distance travel across Europe.

 

[StephenHunter]

Are you talking about the BGS, the Grenztruppen or both?

Also, going South, the only check will be at St Pancras before boarding.

 

[Austriantrain]

My recollection of German border guards on a rail journey from Ostend to Moscow was very different. They were officious, armed, dressed in military style uniforms and companied by Rottweilers.

I don’t think there is unarmed police anywhere in Europe outside of the UK. And they do tend to wear uniform as well…

Unless they were GDR troops, the dogs were most likely there to look for drugs. German police don’t tend to use dogs to maul humans…

 

[StephenHunter]

Iceland and uniformed guards in Ireland.

 

[Austriantrain]

Iceland and uniformed guards in Ireland.

Thank you, I forgot about Ireland and wasn’t aware of Iceland.