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Mike Ashley and Sports Direct

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RichmondCommu

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More self-righteousness:roll:

Have you considered the possibility of anyone ever being delayed by circumstances beyond their control? However much time they allow, it is always possible for something to happen that will delay them even more than that.

A bit of empathy wouldn't go amiss.

Given that I commute into Waterloo Monday to Friday I know all about delays to my journey, in which case I always aim to get an earlier train just in case. However in the case of Shirebrook I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of journeys will be based around the car in which case they would be aware of bottle necks, road works etc so there is no excuse. What ever happened to leaving enough time to get to work? If I can do it why can't everyone else?
 
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Dent

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Given that I commute into Waterloo Monday to Friday I know all about delays to my journey, in which case I always aim to get an earlier train just in case. However in the case of Shirebrook I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of journeys will be based around the car in which case they would be aware of bottle necks, road works etc so there is no excuse. What ever happened to leaving enough time to get to work? If I can do it why can't everyone else?

How much time is "enough" to guarantee with absolute certainty that no unforeseen circumstances can possibly delay you by more than that time? I don't believe there is such a figure, and the reality if that however much time someone allows it is still possible to be delayed through no fault of their own by more than that time.
 

RichmondCommu

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How much time is "enough" to guarantee with absolute certainty that no unforeseen circumstances can possibly delay you by more than that time? I don't believe there is such a figure, and the reality if that however much time someone allows it is still possible to be delayed through no fault of their own by more than that time.

Well that would all depend on the route taken and the chances of them being delayed through no fault of their own. Shirebrook is not exactly a seething metropolis with lots of opportunities for delays. And if there was a catastrophic delay then surely everyone (including the people in HR enforcing the fine system) would be delayed. In which case the people enforcing the fines would be unlikely to fine themselves.
 

Dent

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Well that would all depend on the route taken and the chances of them being delayed through no fault of their own. Shirebrook is not exactly a seething metropolis with lots of opportunities for delays.

There is still no absolute limit to the length of unforeseen delay a person can possibly suffer, so the point remains that it is possible for someone to be delayed through no fault of their own no matter how much time they allow.

And if there was a catastrophic delay then surely everyone (including the people in HR enforcing the fine system) would be delayed. In which case the people enforcing the fines would be unlikely to fine themselves.

Some unforeseen delays would affect the entire workforce, some only some workers, some only one. Many different unforeseen circumstances are possible, with many different possible results.
 

DarloRich

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surely the simple question about fining people for late attendance is this: Are the fines imposed on all staff members equally or just the scutters working in the warehouse?
 

IanD

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Given that I commute into Waterloo Monday to Friday I know all about delays to my journey, in which case I always aim to get an earlier train just in case. However in the case of Shirebrook I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of journeys will be based around the car in which case they would be aware of bottle necks, road works etc so there is no excuse. What ever happened to leaving enough time to get to work? If I can do it why can't everyone else?

I drive to work everyday. It should be a less than 10 minute journey. Twice in recent weeks it has taken over an hour - not because of bottlenecks and road works but because of accidents on the M1 almost 20 miles away! Should I allow an hour and half for my journey every day just in case? Who's going to pay me for the extra hour I'm at work when there are no delays?
 

pemma

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For what its worth I really don't understand why people have issues with people being fined for turning up to work late. After all there is an easy solution to that; set off for work earlier!

There's a long list of issues which were identified. Yorkie added a brief news snippet in to the original post which mentioned the fines for being late which is certainly not one of the most outrageous issues. However, there's also a difference between making a deduction from your pay for the missed time and issuing a fine. A fine suggests something like a £5 deduction for being 10 minutes late when you're paid £7 an hour.

'Set off earlier' is easy for someone in London to say when there's long operating hours for public transport and alternative methods are usually available. If the first bus is at 07:30 and it's supposed to arrive at 08:15 and you have a 08:30 start, how are you supposed to set off earlier if the bus is sometimes late?
 
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Tetchytyke

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However what Sports Direct are doing is not illegal in terms of fining people for being late, it happens in a lot of manufacturing companies. And indeed if you know you're going to lose 15 minutes pay for being late then surely to goodness you would not be late in the first place.

Many places deduct 15 minutes pay if you're late, it isn't something Sports Direct do by themselves. It was the case when I worked for Tesco.

It worked both ways. I didn't deliberately turn up late but, if I did because of Arriva buses, I'd not start work until 14 minutes after my shift start. If they weren't going to pay me, I wasn't going to do the work.
 

furnessvale

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Many places deduct 15 minutes pay if you're late, it isn't something Sports Direct do by themselves. It was the case when I worked for Tesco.

It worked both ways. I didn't deliberately turn up late but, if I did because of Arriva buses, I'd not start work until 14 minutes after my shift start. If they weren't going to pay me, I wasn't going to do the work.

Whilst I have no love of Ashley and his methods, I have known many jobs where 1 minute late meant 15 minutes docked. 15 minutes late meant one hour docked.

It once happened to my wife who informed them that in future she would be in the queue to clock off at 16.55hrs, like the rest of the staff, rather than staying at her desk until 17.10hrs to let the rush subside.

They checked their clock records and quickly reinstated the docked pay!
 

Clip

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surely the simple question about fining people for late attendance is this: Are the fines imposed on all staff members equally or just the scutters working in the warehouse?

More than likely the pickers in the warehouse as they will be on an hourly wage whereas thouse who work in the offices will more than likely be salaried.

This is standard practice in distribution warehouses across the country.
 

pemma

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More than likely the pickers in the warehouse as they will be on an hourly wage whereas thouse who work in the offices will more than likely be salaried.

This is standard practice in distribution warehouses across the country.

Being salaried doesn't mean you can't have pro-rata deductions made.

In some roles it's easier for employers to ask people arriving late, people attending doctor's appointments etc. to make up time than others. In a 24 hour call centre someone else will need the same desk, phone and computer as you at the end of your shift meaning staying on later isn't possible but for some roles it doesn't really matter if you work 9-5, 9:15-5:15 or 8:45-5.15 as long as not everyone wants to arrive late or depart early on the same day.
 

Greenback

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Being salaried doesn't mean you can't have pro-rata deductions made.

In some roles it's easier for employers to ask people arriving late, people attending doctor's appointments etc. to make up time than others. In a 24 hour call centre someone else will need the same desk, phone and computer as you at the end of your shift meaning staying on later isn't possible but for some roles it doesn't really matter if you work 9-5, 9:15-5:15 or 8:45-5.15 as long as not everyone wants to arrive late or depart early on the same day.

Even a 24 hour call centre is likely to have different staffing levels at different times, meaning that there should be an opportunity to make up time somewhere along the line. It could also be easier to swap shifts with colleagues to accommodate doctor or dental appointments without too much disruption. That's straying off topic a bit!

In general, I agree with you though. It's easier in some roles to stay late or start early. I've experienced a few of these myself.
 

pemma

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Even a 24 hour call centre is likely to have different staffing levels at different times, meaning that there should be an opportunity to make up time somewhere along the line. It could also be easier to swap shifts with colleagues to accommodate doctor or dental appointments without too much disruption. That's straying off topic a bit!

I should have really said 'may' opposed to 'will' in my previous post.
 

Greenback

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That would probably have been better, but still, your point is essentially correct :D
 

Clip

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Being salaried doesn't mean you can't have pro-rata deductions made.

.

You are right however most who are salaried will not be working the same hours as those on the shop floor

In some roles it's easier for employers to ask people arriving late, people attending doctor's appointments etc. to make up time than others. In a 24 hour call centre someone else will need the same desk, phone and computer as you at the end of your shift meaning staying on later isn't possible but for some roles it doesn't really matter if you work 9-5, 9:15-5:15 or 8:45-5.15 as long as not everyone wants to arrive late or depart early on the same day

Quite, however for distribution warehouses they work mainly to a 6-2, 2- 10, 10 - 6 shift pattern or maybe a 12 hour shift 6-6, 6-6 and those in the offices will mainly be on an 8-5 sort of pattern so theyll be coming in during times when it may be busy and those on the shop floor will be getting in when the roads are pretty empty
 

JamesRowden

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There's a long list of issues which were identified. Yorkie added a brief news snippet in to the original post which mentioned the fines for being late which is certainly not one of the most outrageous issues. However, there's also a difference between making a deduction from your pay for the missed time and issuing a fine. A fine suggests something like a £5 deduction for being 10 minutes late when you're paid £7 an hour.

'Set off earlier' is easy for someone in London to say when there's long operating hours for public transport and alternative methods are usually available. If the first bus is at 07:30 and it's supposed to arrive at 08:15 and you have a 08:30 start, how are you supposed to set off earlier if the bus is sometimes late?

Cycle or move to within 30mins walk. Where the employee commutes from is determined by the employee and so the employee should logically suffer the subsequent potential penalties of their decision.
 

Johnuk123

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If you set out to work and the bus doesn't turn up or there is a motorway pile-up or any amount of things it's not the fault of your employer, if you're late you're late.
It might be things beyond your control but at the end of the day if you lose money because you're late you can't complain.

Anyone who has ever done manual labour will know that a 3 min late start usually loses you 15 mins pay it's been like that for years, perfectly right in my opinion.
 

pemma

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Cycle or move to within 30mins walk. Where the employee commutes from is determined by the employee

and the employer.

I know of businesses which have relocated up to 20 miles where they haven't determined that to be moving outside of the local area so haven't offered relocation packages.

Also if an employer offers a minimum wage job in a place where cheap housing isn't available then it's the employer who needs to pay employees more if they want them to live locally.

With regards to cycling - what if there is no cycle route or you have a disability* where you are unable to cycle?

* Employers legally can't discriminate because of disabilities.

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If you set out to work and the bus doesn't turn up or there is a motorway pile-up or any amount of things it's not the fault of your employer

Agreed.

Anyone who has ever done manual labour will know that a 3 min late start usually loses you 15 mins pay it's been like that for years, perfectly right in my opinion.

Disagree unless the employer also pays you 15 minutes if you're called in to a meeting which is supposed to end at your finishing time but it runs 2 minutes over.
 
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JamesRowden

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and the employer.

I know of businesses which have relocated up to 20 miles where they haven't determined that to be moving outside of the local area so don't offer relocation packages.

Also if an employer offers a minimum wage job in a place where cheap housing isn't available then it's the employer who needs to pay employees more if they want them to live locally.

The employer can pay employees extra if it inconveniences its employees by moving the wrork place or being generally badly located. The employee should be able to move to another company if they don't think that they've got a good deal.
 

pemma

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The employee should be able to move to another company if they don't think that they've got a good deal.

If the place of employment is not located close to cheap housing and the employer takes a hard line on minimum wage employees using unreliable public transport then they may find they have to spend a lot of resource on constantly re-recruiting for the same vacancies, so it might be in their best interests to look after the current employees better.
 

Johnuk123

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Disagree unless the employer also pays you 15 minutes if you're called in to a meeting which is supposed to end at your finishing time but it runs 2 minutes over.

Perfectly reasonable I would say to expect the same back.
 

JamesRowden

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With regards to cycling - what if there is no cycle route or you have a disability* where you are unable to cycle?

* Employers legally can't discriminate because of disabilities.
Assuming that the disability does not stop the employee from relocating to close proximity of the work place, it is not simply the disability which has made them late. Making disabled people mobile in normal life should be the responsibility of the government.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the place of employment is not located close to cheap housing and the employer takes a hard line on minimum wage employees using unreliable public transport then they may find they have to spend a lot of resource on constantly re-recruiting for the same vacancies, so it might be in their best interests to look after the current employees better.

By paying them a greater basic wage.......

Then they should be happy and punctual.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I think it would be better if you got off your high horse and stopped telling people where they should shop. If people have a mortgage to pay, children to raise and a season ticket to pay for why shouldn't they look around for bargains? I'm assuming here that you don't have any of the commitments that I listed which makes it very easy to thumb your nose at those that do shop at Sports Direct.

I am told that the Primark stores seem well patronised by those looking for bargain priced goods and not unduly bothered where they are made.
 

Darandio

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I am told that the Primark stores seem well patronised by those looking for bargain priced goods and not unduly bothered where they are made.

You can add many retailers to that list Paul, it isn't exactly an isolated practice.

If I need to clothe my family at a reasonable price, i've little concern where they are made, it's not my problem and is for someone else to sort out.

If anyone takes issue with that attitude, we could always all walk around 'nekkid'.
 

Greenback

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In the places I've worked, there have been either formal or informal processes to deal with persistent lateness. None, as far as I can recall, have involved losing pay for occasional incidents. Where such policies do apply, they tended to be invoked only after the employee had been given the opportunity to make up any lost time and either refused or was unable to do so, and their punctuality had not improved.

In practice, an occasional minor incident was often overlooked completely, especially if it involved some kind of transport difficulty such as a broken down vehicle or an incident on the line. In return for that, most employees were willing to occasionally give something back by staying late for a meeting or by not going home until they had finished a particular task.

When I was a manager myself, my own attitude was pretty relaxed. I know things can happen which aren't the fault of the employer or employee, they just occur. I didn't like it if someone appeared to be taking the proverbial, though, and I would then ask them to take shorter breaks until the time was made up. I don't agree with being strict enough to deduct pay for every little incident of lateness, and I'm lucky to have worked in industries and roles where it didn't have a major effect on service provision. I accept that in some places that isn't the case, but I'd still prefer to see some goodwill being given on both sides.
 

Bletchleyite

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I am told that the Primark stores seem well patronised by those looking for bargain priced goods and not unduly bothered where they are made.

You can buy branded clothes made in Far East sweatshops, or you can go to Primark and buy cheap clothes made in Far East sweatshops.

There are relatively few options to avoid that origin.
 

richw

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Whilst I have no love of Ashley and his methods, I have known many jobs where 1 minute late meant 15 minutes docked. 15 minutes late meant one hour docked.

It once happened to my wife who informed them that in future she would be in the queue to clock off at 16.55hrs, like the rest of the staff, rather than staying at her desk until 17.10hrs to let the rush subside.

They checked their clock records and quickly reinstated the docked pay!

Deducting 15 mins for 1 min late, or 1 hour for 15 late, would potentially take low paid earners below minimum wage, which then makes the practice illegal.

My employer used to deduct £25 from your bonus if you were even a minute late, (we were achieving between £6-10k a year in personal bonuses at the time). They would not deduct anything from basic salary. They've now stopped this practice as our legal department were uneasy about the policy and we now have to make the time up instead. 3 instances in 6 months now equals a disciplinary as well.
 

RichmondCommu

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I drive to work everyday. It should be a less than 10 minute journey. Twice in recent weeks it has taken over an hour - not because of bottlenecks and road works but because of accidents on the M1 almost 20 miles away! Should I allow an hour and half for my journey every day just in case? Who's going to pay me for the extra hour I'm at work when there are no delays?

You raise a fair point and you wouldn't really anticipate that on a typical commute that takes 10 minutes. However if we go back to the case of Sports Direct if pretty much everyone is affected by the same delay then I would have thought it unlikely that a couple of thousand staff including managers would be fined for lateness.
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I am told that the Primark stores seem well patronised by those looking for bargain priced goods and not unduly bothered where they are made.

This includes my daughters who are at Uni and despite a monthly allowance from my wife and I are not exactly awash with cash. They are also aware of factory conditions in places like Bangladesh (my wife's family are originally from the Indian sub-continent) but high street fashion at affordable prices means they don't think twice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It worked both ways. I didn't deliberately turn up late but, if I did because of Arriva buses, I'd not start work until 14 minutes after my shift start. If they weren't going to pay me, I wasn't going to do the work.

Fair enough. As someone who helps to run an organisation I can't argue against that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
'Set off earlier' is easy for someone in London to say when there's long operating hours for public transport and alternative methods are usually available. If the first bus is at 07:30 and it's supposed to arrive at 08:15 and you have a 08:30 start, how are you supposed to set off earlier if the bus is sometimes late?

In all fairness I would suggest that Sports Direct are likely to provide transport to get workers to their warehouse so in the case of the bus running late it would be the bus company that would be fined. Not only that but car ownership tends to be much higher outside of the major conurbations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There is still no absolute limit to the length of unforeseen delay a person can possibly suffer, so the point remains that it is possible for someone to be delayed through no fault of their own no matter how much time they allow.

I would argue that in the interests of being sensible if nothing else we need to consider delays and their causes that are realistic / in all probability likely to happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some unforeseen delays would affect the entire workforce, some only some workers, some only one. Many different unforeseen circumstances are possible, with many different possible results.

In that case if such a delay affected the entire workforce or indeed a significant percentage then I doubt that you have hundreds of workers being fined for the same incident. However I would argue that in the case of one individual then I would suggest that any delay is likely to be their fault.
 
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