Miliband pledges London-style bus service across England

[overthewater]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29839181

Ed Miliband will promise later that a Labour government would grant cities and regions greater powers to improve bus services across England.

The Labour leader will say cities and counties should be able to set bus fares and routes and integrate them with local tram and rail services.

He will say that bus services outside London currently "fail to serve the public interest".

Labour's plans could mean more Oyster card-style travel outside London.

Greater Manchester is already rolling out its "get me there" travel card across its Metrolink trams.

Devolving power
Labour says Mr Miliband's pledge to improve bus provision outside London is part of his plan to ensure that the benefits of economic recovery are felt beyond London.

He will also pledge further decentralisation of powers to the English regions with an English Devolution Act, and to continue devolving power to Scotland and Wales from Westminster.

If he were to become prime minister, Mr Miliband says he will chair regular meetings of a new English Regional Cabinet Committee, to be attended by relevant secretaries of state and city and county leaders.

In a speech in Manchester, he will say: "For too long, powers to regulate and integrate bus services have been enjoyed only by London.

"For too long, the other regions of England have been unable to plan ahead or join up their transport networks to help secure the prosperity they need."

He will say ordinary working people have been let down by the deregulated bus system.

"Labour will legislate so that city and county regions can set fares, decide routes, and integrate bus services with trams, trains and the wider public transport network.

"Bus services and public transport should be the arteries that keep our regional economics moving, our roads less clogged with cars, and working people travelling to where businesses need them.

"We will put the public interest back on our buses."

I can't see this happening. I personnel don't want stupid councillors operating buses again.

 

[radamfi]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29839181

I can't see this happening. I personnel don't want stupid councillors operating buses again.

Don't worry, you'll be alright. Scotland is still in the pockets of the big bus groups.

On that page there is a link to a similar story 8 years ago.

Are they actually going to force regulation, or simply encourage authorities to pursue QCs, which they can already do?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Earlier this year in Coach and Bus Buyer from Mary Crea

When asked if the Labour Party has any estimates concerning how much this proposed devolution of power will cost ‘It’s important to separate out funding and control. The measures needed to give cities the powers that London have are mainly legal and political. Our announcement is about control rather than funding – we want to give cities/combined authorities, etc, the power to decide how to run their buses. This is part of Labour’s wider devolution agenda about handing down power, not a spending commitment.’

So a London style scheme but no funding. Why anyone thinks you can get something for nothing astounds me. However, it won't happen. Labour won't get in - not with Ed Miliband's approval ratings.

 

[radamfi]

Current Ladbrokes odds on post election government:

Labour majority: 5/2
Conservative majority: 4/1
Lab/Lib Dems coalition: 5/1
Cons/Lib Dems coalition: 5/1
Labour minority government: 7/1

so it would appear that a Labour led government is fairly likely.

Aside from the usual arguments about funding and legal action, which we have done to death (but I guess we can still do again!) it would be interesting to see the nuts and bolts to what they are proposing. Is it going to be any different to setting up a QC?

If they are serious about devolution, and the authorities are determined to fund improved bus services, then they might be able to find the money. Greater Manchester has already managed to tap into alternative funding and borrowing arrangements for its Metrolink expansion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

London, of course, despite having the power to do so, has failed over a long period to introduce a properly integrated fare system, with those having to take two buses losing twice because they also have to pay twice, and a Tube journey with a bus connection costing (tube fare)+(bus fare).

It would be absolutely superb if a region were to kick them into touch by doing it properly in the manner it is done in Germany, where mode of transport is irrelevant in ticketing terms, and buses are used in their proper role of filling in gaps in the rapid transit rail network, not competing with it.

Neil

 

[radamfi]

The problem is almost entirely cultural, as charging per vehicle is common to operations in Britain and some former colonies, regardless whether the buses are tendered, deregulated or state owned. That is why I'm not optimistic even in the event of authorities getting back control of buses, and why I'm emigrating.

Buses in Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland are state owned and charge per vehicle. Buses in Great Britain charged per vehicle before deregulation. Hong Kong still follows many of the 'quirks' of British operation, despite passing back to China quite a long time ago now. They even have the same obsession with checking tickets when boarding despite having huge loadings and they charge per vehicle there too.

For some reason, countries that have become independent from the UK choose to copy British bad habits instead of emulating good practice from mainland Europe. Despite Ireland's bitter struggle against British rule, their buses are run very similarly to how buses were run in Britain before 1986. Transport in Scotland has been devolved for many years now yet they still have deregulation.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Current Ladbrokes odds on post election government:

Labour majority: 5/2
Conservative majority: 4/1
Lab/Lib Dems coalition: 5/1
Cons/Lib Dems coalition: 5/1
Labour minority government: 7/1

so it would appear that a Labour led government is fairly likely.

Aside from the usual arguments about funding and legal action, which we have done to death (but I guess we can still do again!) it would be interesting to see the nuts and bolts to what they are proposing. Is it going to be any different to setting up a QC?

If they are serious about devolution, and the authorities are determined to fund improved bus services, then they might be able to find the money. Greater Manchester has already managed to tap into alternative funding and borrowing arrangements for its Metrolink expansion.

The latest opinion poll (YouGov/The Sun) results from 30th Oct - Con 33%, Lab 32%, LD 7%, UKIP 15%. More importantly, the approval ratings for Ed Miliband are shocking. For a challenging party to be behind at this point in the election cycle says a lot (and I am not a Tory, I assure you).

The Labour spokesperson has already had to clarify - THERE'S NO SPENDING COMMITMENT - THERE'S NO MONEY. So no, there's not going to be a London style bus service.

 

[radamfi]

Con 33%, Lab 32%, LD 7%, UKIP 15%

That's just one poll, and even if that was realised in the election, Labour would still get most seats because of our stupid electoral system.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That's just one poll, and even if that was realised in the election, Labour would still get most seats because of our stupid electoral system.

Yes, but it's the latest one. Also, you can't say that Labour would still get most seats - such are the vagaries of the voting system

However, it's all academic. Labour aren't going to provide any funds (as specifically confirmed by them) and the Tories are similarly committed to spending cuts to reduce the deficit. Without funding, you won't get a London style bus service across England (as this thread title suggests).

 

[radamfi]

Yes, but it's the latest one. Also, you can't say that Labour would still get most seats - such are the vagaries of the voting system

However, it's all academic. Labour aren't going to provide any funds (as specifically confirmed by them) and the Tories are similarly committed to spending cuts to reduce the deficit. Without funding, you won't get a London style bus service across England (as this thread title suggests).

Nothing is 100% certain, but it is generally agreed by most politics experts that the Tories need to win the popular vote by a reasonable margin under our voting system because of the way the boundaries are drawn and the way that the votes are distributed.

Central government won't provide funding, but there is a faint hope that funding could be found locally if the promised devolution materialises.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Nothing is 100% certain, but it is generally agreed by most politics experts that the Tories need to win the popular vote by a reasonable margin under our voting system because of the way the boundaries are drawn and the way that the votes are distributed.

Central government won't provide funding, but there is a faint hope that funding could be found locally if the promised devolution materialises.

Indeed, and history also tells us that at this stage in the political cycle, for a challenging party not to enjoy a substantial lead is also extremely damaging for their prospects in winning. That said, the fragmentation of the vote, impact of UKIP, etc means that some givens are no longer carved into stone. We digress.

Central government won't provide funding but there's no hope of local funding either. We see this every week seemingly - in Hampshire, there is the latest round of cuts. Fact is that central government are being very disingenuous by saying....

"We're giving local people the chance to decide what they spend their money on." However, Pickles has cut the central government funding so it's really a way of saying to local government "you decide where the cuts will be".

Some counties are better than others but all are cutting back and it's going to get worse. North Yorkshire and Somerset barely support Sunday or evening services now. Cumbria has had swingeing cuts. It's not just Tory dominated counties either. Unitaries such as Darlington and Hartlepool have NO supported services at all.

Faint hope? You've got more chance of finding Bob Hope

 

[Busaholic]

London, of course, despite having the power to do so, has failed over a long period to introduce a properly integrated fare system, with those having to take two buses losing twice because they also have to pay twice, and a Tube journey with a bus connection costing (tube fare)+(bus fare).

It would be absolutely superb if a region were to kick them into touch by doing it properly in the manner it is done in Germany, where mode of transport is irrelevant in ticketing terms, and buses are used in their proper role of filling in gaps in the rapid transit rail network, not competing with it.

Neil

It is because in this country the powers-that-be always look at the possibilities of individuals misusing the fare systems thus ensuring that the vast majority of law-abiding passengers can't have the advantages of a mature and commonsense approach to travel by public transport. This applies equally to regulated and deregulated regimes. When I was a London Transport traffic management trainee decades ago, I made myself very unpopular with colleagues about the matter of not selling Red Bus Rovers on buses (the precursor to Travelcards, also never available to buy on a London bus) meaning those without an Underground station near them often had to pay a bus fare to get somewhere to buy a Rover for the day. The 'common good' is something that last applied with the setting-up of the NHS and has been in decay and disarray ever since.

 

[radamfi]

In the days when I read UK transport press, members of the public would write in and criticise the fact you had to pay extra to change, yet the people in charge would defend this policy to the death. Surely they must understand the stupidity of this? There's no hope.

 

[ChathillMan]

If I have read the details correctly the powers will only be given to local authorities IF they want them. Yes, I can see large combined authorities such as Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool wanting them, but what of places such as Nottingham, Carlisle, York, Cambridge, Oxford etc. Would a QC scheme suit them?

However unpopular some politicians feel bus companies are , checks and balances need to be in place to see if a QCS should be implemented. At the end of the say the politicians could be taking somebodies business from them.

 

[Rapidash]

It would be great if there was more integration between buses and trains in the 'regions', especially at terminus stations, ie the train from Exeter pulls into Paignton and the 12 towards Brixham is waiting, rather than leaving a minute before the train gets in...... Right pain in the arse, especially in the evenings when frequency drops down .

 

[pemma]

Cross operator tickets outside PTE areas are something we need.

However, having one covering, for instance, the Cheshire & Warrington LEP area wouldn't solve the problem as you'd still have journeys which cross the boundaries which you still need 2 tickets for e.g. Warrington to St. Helens.

 

[radamfi]

If I have read the details correctly the powers will only be given to local authorities IF they want them. Yes, I can see large combined authorities such as Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool wanting them, but what of places such as Nottingham, Carlisle, York, Cambridge, Oxford etc. Would a QC scheme suit them?

However unpopular some politicians feel bus companies are , checks and balances need to be in place to see if a QCS should be implemented. At the end of the say the politicians could be taking somebodies business from them.

The QC policy as it stands at the moment enables those authorities who are happy with the status quo to leave things alone. It seems unclear whether or not a new policy is being proposed by Labour that will force everywhere to be tendered.

The fact that we always appear to be able to quote those areas with comparatively good services means that they are in a small minority.

The bizarre thing is we appear to be starting at a 'default' position of deregulation. It could be argued that, given the obscure nature of this type of bus provision, we should really be having 'checks and balances' to determine whether deregulation is appropriate, rather than the other way around.

The main interest is giving the travelling public a good service with reasonable fares, with the secondary concern being whether the taxpayer is getting value for money. The livelihoods of those currently involved in the industry is of lesser importance. We are not running a bus service just to keep shareholders happy and people in a job.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Cross operator tickets outside PTE areas are something we need.

However, having one covering, for instance, the Cheshire & Warrington LEP area wouldn't solve the problem as you'd still have journeys which cross the boundaries which you still need 2 tickets for e.g. Warrington to St. Helens.

Ain't that the way....there's always someone left on the margins or disproportionately affected.

There are plenty of multi-operator tickets around outside the PTE areas. One would be AvonRider, which covers all of the former Avon CC area. Or Wiltshire Day Rover, or Explorer North East, or SolentGo, or Taith in North Wales.

 

[radamfi]

Cross operator tickets outside PTE areas are something we need.

However, having one covering, for instance, the Cheshire & Warrington LEP area wouldn't solve the problem as you'd still have journeys which cross the boundaries which you still need 2 tickets for e.g. Warrington to St. Helens.

The Dutch smartcard system works nationwide so you don't have to worry about boundaries, despite having multiple operators and different tariffs in different areas. In general, you pay a fixed fee of about 70p when you get on your first bus/tram/metro and then a fee per km on each service you use. So even if you change onto a different company with a different fee per km you can still use the same ticket.

The German system works on zones so you simply pay for whatever zones you cross. This can get a bit complicated when you cross into a neighbouring tariff area, but the fare systems normally overlap so hardly anyone has to use two tickets, and often there are overarching tickets that cover an entire state which are an option if you would otherwise need two tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are plenty of multi-operator tickets around outside the PTE areas. One would be AvonRider, which covers all of the former Avon CC area. Or Wiltshire Day Rover, or Explorer North East, or SolentGo, or Taith in North Wales.

But most of these are priced so high that they are only useful for those travelling a lot or on different companies. As a result, they are used by a small minority of passengers in these areas.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The QC policy as it stands at the moment enables those authorities who are happy with the status quo to leave things alone. It seems unclear whether or not a new policy is being proposed by Labour that will force everywhere to be tendered.

The fact that we always appear to be able to quote those areas with comparatively good services means that they are in a small minority.

The bizarre thing is we appear to be starting at a 'default' position of deregulation. It could be argued that, given the obscure nature of this type of bus provision, we should really be having 'checks and balances' to determine whether deregulation is appropriate, rather than the other way around.

The main interest is giving the travelling public a good service with reasonable fares, with the secondary concern being whether the taxpayer is getting value for money. The livelihoods of those currently involved in the industry is of lesser importance. We are not running a bus service just to keep shareholders happy and people in a job.

We start at deregulation because that is where we are at.

In fact, you keep citing Surrey and how most routes are tendered and so, by default, in public control. 2014/5 sees a cut of nearly 3% in local government budgets (and that's not a real term cut - that's actually higher). Over the next 4 years, reductions in the formula grant from central government though partially mitigated by other measures will see local goverment spending drop by 8.8% a year. In truth, with the reduction in expenditure from local authorities (and BSOG), buses have never been so commercially operated - level of subsidy per journey has dropped by 17% in a year!!

For the umpteeth time, what on earth will make QCs SO much better? The idea that without any extra money, buses will suddenly be just like London?

Really? Are we planting magic beans?

The average differential between deregulated bus operations and the London model is c.6%. For that, you're expecting a London style network with enhanced frequencies, integrated ticketing, etc.

This is just bad politicking from Labour (devolved local control, evil private market etc) in the same way that the Coalition are spinning local devolution when it's just a way of avoiding blame for the cuts that have come and are coming.

The ironic thing is that outside the PTE areas (where we're told things are best), passenger decline is at its greatest. Meanwhile, in the shires, bus patronage is declining at a lower rate - this may be argued because its from a low base but I see more good in the shires (despite the cuts in tendered services esp evenings).

 

[radamfi]

Who's saying the PTE areas are the best? You would expect them to be the easiest to serve, given they are by definition heavily populated, and they also tend to be relatively impoverished areas, and therefore good bus territory. They've seen huge patronage declines since deregulation, and three out of the six PTE areas in England now have below average patronage in that country according to the latest DfT bus patronage figures. So it is unsurprising that stakeholders in those regions are clamouring for change.

It is possible that the fact that these areas are, or at least were, good bus territory has led to them suffering the most under deregulation because they have endured a lot of bus wars and frequent service changes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Dutch smartcard system works nationwide so you don't have to worry about boundaries, despite having multiple operators and different tariffs in different areas. In general, you pay a fixed fee of about 70p when you get on your first bus/tram/metro and then a fee per km on each service you use. So even if you change onto a different company with a different fee per km you can still use the same ticket.

The German system works on zones so you simply pay for whatever zones you cross. This can get a bit complicated when you cross into a neighbouring tariff area, but the fare systems normally overlap so hardly anyone has to use two tickets, and often there are overarching tickets that cover an entire state which are an option if you would otherwise need two tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But most of these are priced so high that they are only useful for those travelling a lot or on different companies. As a result, they are used by a small minority of passengers in these areas.

Any evidence for that last point?

To use one example, AvonRider is £7.20 which is about a pound more that First's equivalent day ticket (which actually covers more of an area). There are subdivisions for Bristol, Bath or Weston/North Somerset at £4.50.

You'd be surprised by how many do purchase such tickets. I questioned the same once with Explorer North East - apparently very popular with people visiting family members in prison

 

[radamfi]

Any evidence for that last point?

To use one example, AvonRider is £7.20 which is about a pound more that First's equivalent day ticket (which actually covers more of an area). There are subdivisions for Bristol, Bath or Weston/North Somerset at £4.50.

You'd be surprised by how many do purchase such tickets. I questioned the same once with Explorer North East - apparently very popular with people visiting family members in prison

£7 (or even £4.50) is rather a lot of money to spend on one day's bus travel! Not bad if you are travelling around for fun, and as an enthusiast I actually take advantage of these kind of tickets. At university I used to use the Wiltshire Day Rover a lot. But I wouldn't like to be using these for mundane, day-to-day use.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Who's saying the PTE areas are the best? You would expect them to be the easiest to serve, given they are by definition heavily populated, and they also tend to be relatively impoverished areas, and therefore good bus territory. They've seen huge patronage declines since deregulation, and three out of the six PTE areas in England now have below average patronage in that country according to the latest DfT bus patronage figures. So it is unsurprising that stakeholders in those regions are clamouring for change.

It is possible that the fact that these areas are, or at least were, good bus territory has led to them suffering the most under deregulation because they have endured a lot of bus wars and frequent service changes.

However, one of the criticisms from Nexus (yes, them) was that the area was divided into fiefdoms etc.

I could agree with your comments in the first 10-15 years of deregulation. However, the fact is that there are few bus wars especially in PTE areas (hence Nexus's remarks) and not now in Sheffield. Yet PTE areas, with their multi operator tickets are now outstripping the shires in terms of decline. Odd!

And again, as Jerry Maguire said..............
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

£7 (or even £4.50) is rather a lot of money to spend on one day's bus travel! Not bad if you are travelling around for fun, and as an enthusiast I actually take advantage of these kind of tickets. At university I used to use the Wiltshire Day Rover a lot. But I wouldn't like to be using these for mundane, day-to-day use.

£4.50 for a single fare is high, but not for a return, and certainly not if it's a four stage journey (2 out, 2 back). Most people who travel somewhere do need to get back As has been said before, the day of the return is now disappearing - a day ticket now suffices.

 

[radamfi]

Yet PTE areas, with their multi operator tickets are now outstripping the shires in terms of decline. Odd!

Are that many people buying PTE tickets these days? I still travel around Greater Manchester quite a lot these days and it is nearly all FirstDays, FirstWeeks and Megariders. If you ask the driver for a DaySaver, you get a FirstDay unless you specifically ask for a System One ticket, even though the proper name for the System One ticket is a DaySaver.

Obviously people are going to get the single company ticket unless they need to use different companies. Some people might even take a longer route to avoid having to buy a PTE ticket if they can make the journey using the same company using a single company ticket.

Another reason why the PTE areas may have done badly is that First and Arriva cover a lot of those areas.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

.

Another reason why the PTE areas may have done badly is that First and Arriva cover a lot of those areas.

I think we can agree on that one. First (under the old regime) were almost suicidal in their cuts and lack of investment.

Arriva are merely competent (where they're good) and mediocre or worse elsewhere. When you look at Nexus land, you've got two pretty good operators with Stagecoach and Go Ahead. It's the 10% of the network that's Arriva which is rather woeful - endless network recasts and a poor focus on service delivery though I will concede they've finally invested in the fleet in recent years

 

[ivanhoe]

In Loughborough, we have a mixture of Arriva and Kinch(A Trent Barton Company)as the majority providers. There are no opportunities for inter operator ticket uses and what Labour is proposing will have no impact on small towns like Loughborough. Indeed one could see Arriva increasingly transfer newer stock to areas where they could have a greater input such as Liverpool. I have already noticed older stock on the 126/127 routes over the past twelve months.
I would even go as far to say that Labours plans are weasel words which have not been fully costed or thought out. This country needs to look to Holland and Germany for ways forward. It can still be Publically Stated but Privately delivered.

 

[Kuyoyo]

I think we can agree on that one. First (under the old regime) were almost suicidal in their cuts and lack of investment.

Arriva are merely competent (where they're good) and mediocre or worse elsewhere. When you look at Nexus land, you've got two pretty good operators with Stagecoach and Go Ahead. It's the 10% of the network that's Arriva which is rather woeful - endless network recasts and a poor focus on service delivery though I will concede they've finally invested in the fleet in recent years

The Arriva network in Tyneside has been stable for the last year - the only major change was the extension of the Great Park Estate 46 to the General Hospital via the RVI to replace the formerly-Classic worked NHS Shuttle (likewise the 52 and new 553 replaced that).

The ironic bit is that while Arriva chopped and changed their Tyneside network, Go North East did the same in Sunderland - they changed the North Sunderland network at least 3 times in 2 years until late last year. Stagecoach haven't really touched their network for years, indeed the Stagecoach On Teesside Network is about to get its first major revamp since January 2003 in December which actually sees more buses added to the daily run-round.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Arriva network in Tyneside has been stable for the last year - the only major change was the extension of the Great Park Estate 46 to the General Hospital via the RVI to replace the formerly-Classic worked NHS Shuttle (likewise the 52 and new 553 replaced that).

The ironic bit is that while Arriva chopped and changed their Tyneside network, Go North East did the same in Sunderland - they changed the North Sunderland network at least 3 times in 2 years until late last year. Stagecoach haven't really touched their network for years, indeed the Stagecoach On Teesside Network is about to get its first major revamp since January 2003 in December which actually sees more buses added to the daily run-round.

I was thinking of the Big One revision that subsequently had a revision and then another in Sep 2012. That was what Nexus were citing in their justifications.

 

[radamfi]

This country needs to look to Holland and Germany for ways forward.

If this country was going to do it, it would have done it by now. Britain is a very insular and backward country. It is incapable of looking outside the country for solutions, hence why people are now talking about 'looking at London'. If you want better PT, best to leave the country.