Minimum connection time across London (advance ticket)

[ABB125]

From the May timetable change, it appears that train from Norwich will arrive at Liverpool Street at xx51. Trains from Paddington heading towards Worcester depart at xx50.
At the time I may be travelling (evening), the official transfer time between LST and PAD is 30 minutes*; added to the 15 minutes interchange time at both stations, this gives exactly one hour as the minimum connection time. Given the times I mentioned in the first sentence, I'm sure you can see my issue: there's 59 minutes between the Norwich train arriving in LST and the Worcester train departing PAD.
If I were using a flexible ticket, there wouldn't be any issues. However, I'm planning to use an advance ticket, which obviously I have to use the given itinerary for. Is there any way to manipulate/force any booking system to accept a 59 minute connection, instead of adding an extra hour?

Alternatively, what are the rules regarding cross-London transfers by Underground? Could I, for example, go from LST to PAD via, for example, a magical mystery tour of London to use up the extra hour?

Thanks.

(I can't wait for Crossrail to open; surely that will reduce the transfer time between LST and PAD?)

*I know it's 25 minutes before 1900, but that's too early for me

 

[Wolfie]

From the May timetable change, it appears that train from Norwich will arrive at Liverpool Street at xx51. Trains from Paddington heading towards Worcester depart at xx50.
At the time I may be travelling (evening), the official transfer time between LST and PAD is 30 minutes*; added to the 15 minutes interchange time at both stations, this gives exactly one hour as the minimum connection time. Given the times I mentioned in the first sentence, I'm sure you can see my issue: there's 59 minutes between the Norwich train arriving in LST and the Worcester train departing PAD.
If I were using a flexible ticket, there wouldn't be any issues. However, I'm planning to use an advance ticket, which obviously I have to use the given itinerary for. Is there any way to manipulate/force any booking system to accept a 59 minute connection, instead of adding an extra hour?

Alternatively, what are the rules regarding cross-London transfers by Underground? Could I, for example, go from LST to PAD via, for example, a magical mystery tour of London to use up the extra hour?

Thanks.

(I can't wait for Crossrail to open; surely that will reduce the transfer time between LST and PAD?)

*I know it's 25 minutes before 1900, but that's too early for me

I know that you have to go by National Rail rules when planning a trip but Interestingly the TfL website consistently gives 26mins as the time between Liverpool St and Paddington. Allowing for time waiting for a train (typical frequency is every 5mins) that's not far off the 30min figure. In reality the 15mins each end is excessive to put it politely.

 

[ABB125]

I know that you have to go by National Rail rules when planning a trip but Interestingly the TfL website consistently gives 26mins as the time between Liverpool St and Paddington. Allowing for time waiting for a train (typical frequency is every 5mins) that's not far off the 30min figure. In reality the 15mins each end is excessive to put it politely.

I've done PAD to LST in 20 minutes (stepping off the train at PAD to getting on the train at LST), but only just, so I know it's possible. It's just the fact that the extra 1 minute's minimum requirement adds a whole extra hour to the journey. Obviously if there's no way round it (which I'm not expecting), I'll just have to accept it unfortunately.

 

[yorkie]

I would always advise obtaining a through itinerary (the number of tickets doesn't matter at all) for the entire journey, bearing in mind trains can be re-timed as and even deleted, as well as disrupted.

The additional interchange time applicable late evenings was introduced by stealth and it's not clear to me that it should be contractually binding, but that's not an argument you will want to get into.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The c2c site allows the shorter connection time (see screenshot below). RDG really need to address the issues caused by anomalous connection times in London but it never seems to be a priority for anyone.

 

[Snow1964]

It is one of those bonkers discourage passengers ideas that no one in charge has ever tackled.

The extra 5 minutes waiting for tube in evening due to lower frequency can be justified, but at same time unlikely to get any ticket barrier or concourse congestion at night so 15 minutes each end to walk 150-400m (with no escalators) is excessive

Anyone knowing where to go (which way to walk) will often do it in 25 minutes

Elizabeth line will require a much longer walk at Liverpool Street which will offset some of the quicker journey.

 

[ABB125]

I would always advise obtaining a through itinerary (the number of tickets doesn't matter at all) for the entire journey, bearing in mind trains can be re-timed as and even deleted, as well as disrupted.

The additional interchange time applicable late evenings was introduced by stealth and it's not clear to me that it should be contractually binding, but that's not an argument you will want to get into.

That would generally be my approach too; it's just in this case, the extra minute becoming an hour is very irritating! Thiugh there's not anything I can do about it on an advance (through) ticket.

The c2c site allows the shorter connection time (see screenshot below). RDG really need to address the issues caused by anomalous connection times in London but it never seems to be a priority for anyone.

View attachment 95535

Thanks - I'll have a look later.

It is one of those bonkers discourage passengers ideas that no one in charge has ever tackled.

The extra 5 minutes waiting for tube in evening due to lower frequency can be justified, but at same time unlikely to get any ticket barrier or concourse congestion at night so 15 minutes each end to walk 150-400m (with no escalators) is excessive

Anyone knowing where to go (which way to walk) will often do it in 25 minutes

Elizabeth line will require a much longer walk at Liverpool Street which will offset some of the quicker journey.

I agree!

 

[swt_passenger]

It is one of those bonkers discourage passengers ideas that no one in charge has ever tackled.

The extra 5 minutes waiting for tube in evening due to lower frequency can be justified, but at same time unlikely to get any ticket barrier or concourse congestion at night so 15 minutes each end to walk 150-400m (with no escalators) is excessive

Anyone knowing where to go (which way to walk) will often do it in 25 minutes

Elizabeth line will require a much longer walk at Liverpool Street which will offset some of the quicker journey.

In which case perhaps journey planners ought to force a change at Stratford for appropriate transfers, such as to Paddington? Probably too difficult I expect…

 

[Ianno87]

In which case perhaps journey planners ought to force a change at Stratford for appropriate transfers, such as to Paddington? Probably too difficult I expect…

At Stratford, Crossrail would be an "in station" Interchange, so that standard connection time would be applied. So planners ought to bias towards it.

 

[swt_passenger]

At Stratford, Crossrail would be an "in station" Interchange, so that standard connection time would be applied. So planners ought to bias towards it.

It would be automatic then? That’s more reassuring. Is that also why you might end up with SW to Kings Cross with a change at Vauxhall if the service calls there?

 

[ABB125]

In which case perhaps journey planners ought to force a change at Stratford for appropriate transfers, such as to Paddington? Probably too difficult I expect…

At Stratford, Crossrail would be an "in station" Interchange, so that standard connection time would be applied. So planners ought to bias towards it.

It would be automatic then? That’s more reassuring. Is that also why you might end up with SW to Kings Cross with a change at Vauxhall if the service calls there?

Interestingly, GWR's journey planner seems to have the default change point as Stratford currently (when going East-West; Liverpool Street appears to be preferred still for West-East). Unfortunately, the official interchange time from Stratford to Paddington in even longer: 7 + 57 + 15 = 79 minutes; I imagine that will decrease somewhat when Crossrail opens!

 

[Wolfie]

Interestingly, GWR's journey planner seems to have the default change point as Stratford currently (when going East-West; Liverpool Street appears to be preferred still for West-East). Unfortunately, the official interchange time from Stratford to Paddington in even longer: 7 + 57 + 15 = 79 minutes; I imagine that will decrease somewhat when Crossrail opens!

I'm not immediately sure, given that there is currently no direct route from Stratford to Paddington and the TfL website options are either taking the Central line to Lancaster Gate and walking from there or changing onto the Bakerloo line at Oxford Circus, why Stratford is considered such a great option. The Oxford Circus change isn't great.

 

[ABB125]

I'm not immediately sure, given that there is currently no direct route from Stratford to Paddington and the TfL website options are either taking the Central line to Lancaster Gate and walking from there or changing onto the Bakerloo line at Oxford Circus, why Stratford is considered such a great option. The Oxford Circus change isn't great.

It did seem a bit odd to me, although it does use up a bit more of the ~2 hour allowance to get from LST to PAD.
It's easy to force the system to go via LST though, simply add it as a via point!

 

[Meglos]

If you use the Network Rail journey planner it allows you to override the 1 hour, by selecting the "Allow less time to transfer through London" option, which is accessed from the Edit Journey button. Once you have selected your trains, you get directed to a TOC which keeps those trains (certainly Greater Anglia does).

 

[ABB125]

If you use the Network Rail journey planner it allows you to override the 1 hour, by selecting the "Allow less time to transfer through London" option, which is accessed from the Edit Journey button. Once you have selected your trains, you get directed to a TOC which keeps those trains (certainly Greater Anglia does).

View attachment 95576

Thanks!

 

[alistairlees]

If you use the Network Rail journey planner it allows you to override the 1 hour, by selecting the "Allow less time to transfer through London" option, which is accessed from the Edit Journey button. Once you have selected your trains, you get directed to a TOC which keeps those trains (certainly Greater Anglia does).

View attachment 95576

National Rail, not Network Rail!

 

[ABB125]

If you use the Network Rail journey planner it allows you to override the 1 hour, by selecting the "Allow less time to transfer through London" option, which is accessed from the Edit Journey button. Once you have selected your trains, you get directed to a TOC which keeps those trains (certainly Greater Anglia does).

View attachment 95576

Thinking about it, does this cause issues if there's late running and I miss a connection? Does ticking the box stop me from being permitted to travel on the next train (notwithstanding the fact that if I hadn't ticked the box, I'd be travelling on that train anyway!)?

 

[Jimini]

It’s mentioned upthread, but I’d also recommend getting the Central Line direct to Lancaster Gate and walking round the corner — it’s even quicker now the western entrance to Paddington is open. Can do the walk in less than five mins.

 

[ABB125]

It’s mentioned upthread, but I’d also recommend getting the Central Line direct to Lancaster Gate and walking round the corner — it’s even quicker now the western entrance to Paddington is open. Can do the walk in less than five mins.

I didn't even know there was a western entrance to Paddington! I'm guessing it's part of the crossrail station?

 

[Jimini]

I didn't even know there was a western entrance to Paddington! I'm guessing it's part of the crossrail station?

Yep, it’s right by the Crossrail entrance, over by the Sainsbury’s opposite platform 1

 

[Paul Kelly]

I didn't even know there was a western entrance to Paddington!

It's always been there - just was closed for a few years due to the Crossrail works.

 

[ABB125]

Yep, it’s right by the Crossrail entrance, over by the Sainsbury’s opposite platform 1

It's always been there - just was closed for a few years due to the Crossrail works.

Thanks, that's good to know.

 

[alistairlees]

It's always been there - just was closed for a few years due to the Crossrail works.

I was thinking the same - used it lots 15 years ago when working in Paddington.

What has changed a lot is the entrance at the north west towards the canal - a much larger entrance, and brighter (and friendlier) welcome.

 

[ABB125]

I was thinking the same - used it lots 15 years ago when working in Paddington.

What has changed a lot is the entrance at the north west towards the canal - a much larger entrance, and brighter (and friendlier) welcome.

Now that one I do know exists!

Though the only entrance I've actually used to get in/out of the station (excluding interchanging with the underground) is the long ramp onto Praed Street.

 

[robbeech]

Thinking about it, does this cause issues if there's late running and I miss a connection? Does ticking the box stop me from being permitted to travel on the next train (notwithstanding the fact that if I hadn't ticked the box, I'd be travelling on that train anyway!)?

The minimum transfer and connection time doesn’t change. If you missed a connection that fouled this then it’s possible you’d be refused on the next service although I’ve never known staff do the maths if you show them a reasonable itinerary.

being able to show journey options and being able to buy tickets and generate an itinerary are two different things though.

 

[ABB125]

I've bought some tickets for a different trip that involves crossing London, here's one of them:

What does the "crucifix" symbol on the right indicate? Is it that travel on the Underground is permitted (which I know it is)?
Also, what are the rules on the route I can take between Paddington and Liverpool Street?
Thanks

 

[Ianno87]

I've bought some tickets for a different trip that involves crossing London, here's one of them:
View attachment 95628
What does the "crucifix" symbol on the right indicate? Is it that travel on the Underground is permitted (which I know it is)?
Also, what are the rules on the route I can take between Paddington and Liverpool Street?
Thanks

Valid for a cross-London transfer via LUL/Thameslink.

I don't believe there is any definition of what routes are permitted, I think as long as they are "reasonable" they are fine. e.g. you could travel on the Bakerloo to Oxford Circus the the Central Line if you so desired.

However *technically* I don't think you can (for example) walk to Lancaster Gate from Paddington as I don't believe it is a defined NR interchange station.

Others may correct me on this!

 

[HST274]

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx#travelling_connect

Believe this explains it quite well.

I've bought some tickets for a different trip that involves crossing London, here's one of them:
View attachment 95628
What does the "crucifix" symbol on the right indicate? Is it that travel on the Underground is permitted (which I know it is)?
Also, what are the rules on the route I can take between Paddington and Liverpool Street?
Thanks

 

[ABB125]

Valid for a cross-London transfer via LUL/Thameslink.

That's what I expected, thanks.

I don't believe there is any definition of what routes are permitted, I think as long as they are "reasonable" they are fine. e.g. you could travel on the Bakerloo to Oxford Circus the the Central Line if you so desired.

However *technically* I don't think you can (for example) walk to Lancaster Gate from Paddington as I don't believe it is a defined NR interchange station.

Though, if that's the case, presumably it's fine in the other direction (LST to Lancaster Gate) because you can break your journey before you reach your (Underground) destination station?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Valid for a cross-London transfer via LUL/Thameslink.

I don't believe there is any definition of what routes are permitted, I think as long as they are "reasonable" they are fine. e.g. you could travel on the Bakerloo to Oxford Circus the the Central Line if you so desired.

However *technically* I don't think you can (for example) walk to Lancaster Gate from Paddington as I don't believe it is a defined NR interchange station.

Others may correct me on this!

There's a page on the National Rail site that includes the list of cross-London transfer stations: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx#travelling_connect

You'll be pleased to know that Lancaster Gate does feature on the list, as do Aldgate and Tower Hill (both for Fenchurch Street).