Minimum connection times and platform alterations

[JP]

Are TOCs meant to respect minimum connection times when there’s a platform alteration?

The alterations aren’t their fault, but they can decide when to dispatch trains.

GTR will frequently ignore the 5 minute time at Finsbury Park and then blame passengers for missing the train from the revised platform.

For example this morning’s 11.38 to Horsham is scheduled for platform 2. It’s running late and the alteration happens at 11.42 or 11.43. The train then left 5 minutes late from another platform, so passengers had 2 minutes to change platforms.

No voice announcement, so unless you’re standing beneath the screens you’re screwed.

 

[jfollows]

Are TOCs meant to respect minimum connection times when there’s a platform alteration?

I believe you're misinterpreting what these "minimum connection times" mean.

My take on them is that they define the minimum time between scheduled arrival of one train to scheduled departure of another train to define a "valid" connection between them. Meaning that a journey with a change which respects the "minimum connection time" would be treated as a valid one for the purpose of a refund in the case of delay or onward transport to a destination by other means if the last train of the day is missed.

They do not control dispatch of trains, and trains will be dispatched on time whenever possible without any regard for the time of arrival of "connecting" trains. That's certainly my experience and expectation today. The justification is that it's about the greater good of the greater number of people, whereas you're just one person missing the connection. But you might be able to get some of all of your fare money back if you respected the "minimum connection time", if you can be bothered.

 

[Esker-pades]

This is one of those situations where the railway really can't win.

Either:

• The train has to use a different platform. The train is not held to allow people to move from one platform to another. This is inconvenient for those people, but means the train and all the passengers already on board can continue and are not made later.
  
• The train is forced to use the digrammed platform. This makes it later for everyone (with the associated knock-on effects to other trains), but people can get on board easiy.
• The train has to use a different platform but is held. This makes it later for everyone (with the associated knock-on effects to other trains), but people can get on board easiy.

Signallers do not take pride in platform alterations. They do it when it is necessary to keep trains moving as efficiently as possible. The options I have outlined above are the possible options for a signaller when they are presented with this form of choise. For the bigger picture, the first option is the best. Yes, it's annoying, but I don't know what can be done.

 

[JP]

I believe you're misinterpreting what these "minimum connection times" mean.

My take on them is that they define the minimum time between scheduled arrival of one train to scheduled departure of another train to define a "valid" connection between them. Meaning that a journey with a change which respects the "minimum connection time" would be treated as a valid one for the purpose of a refund in the case of delay or onward transport to a destination by other means if the last train of the day is missed.

They do not control dispatch of trains, and trains will be dispatched on time whenever possible without any regard for the time of arrival of "connecting" trains. That's certainly my experience and expectation today. The justification is that it's about the greater good of the greater number of people, whereas you're just one person missing the connection. But you might be able to get some of all of your fare money back if you respected the "minimum connection time", if you can be bothered.

The argument over the minimum connection time only being valid if immediately getting off another train is almost odd given it’s the exact same process moving between platforms. Unless there’s a separate codified time time for walking within stations.

I find it hard to believe the platform dispatchers, guards and drivers can’t hold a train. Especially given the person on platform 4 shouted over to platform 2 to ask if it was ok to go, and it’s common especially on lines with irregular services to wait for a slightly delayed connecting service.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The argument over the minimum connection time only being valid if immediately getting off another train is almost odd given it’s the exact same process moving between platforms. Unless there’s a separate codified time time for walking within stations.

I find it hard to believe the platform dispatchers, guards and drivers can’t hold a train. Especially given the person on platform 4 shouted over to platform 2 to ask if it was ok to go, and it’s common especially on lines with irregular services to wait for a slightly delayed connecting service.

It's perfectly possible to hold a train but the general policy tends to be that this shouldn't be done.

 

[Tomnick]

This is one of those situations where the railway really can't win.

Either:

• The train has to use a different platform. The train is not held to allow people to move from one platform to another. This is inconvenient for those people, but means the train and all the passengers already on board can continue and are not made later.
  
• The train is forced to use the digrammed platform. This makes it later for everyone (with the associated knock-on effects to other trains), but people can get on board easiy.
• The train has to use a different platform but is held. This makes it later for everyone (with the associated knock-on effects to other trains), but people can get on board easiy.

Signallers do not take pride in platform alterations. They do it when it is necessary to keep trains moving as efficiently as possible. The options I have outlined above are the possible options for a signaller when they are presented with this form of choise. For the bigger picture, the first option is the best. Yes, it's annoying, but I don't know what can be done.

All too often, though, the passengers only become aware when the train description steps into the platform (when the train passes the last signal). There wouldn’t normally be a problem if they were advised earlier, which should be possible as the decision is rarely *that* last minute.

 

[Esker-pades]

All too often, though, the passengers only become aware when the train description steps into the platform (when the train passes the last signal). There wouldn’t normally be a problem if they were advised earlier, which should be possible as the decision is rarely *that* last minute.

That is the situation at Finsbury Park though. Trains can go into at least 2 platforms right up until the last signal. Ditto at Dartford, or other places where last-minute alterations are common.

 

[DelW]

This is one of those situations where the railway really can't win.

Either:

• The train has to use a different platform. The train is not held to allow people to move from one platform to another. This is inconvenient for those people, but means the train and all the passengers already on board can continue and are not made later.
  
• The train is forced to use the digrammed platform. This makes it later for everyone (with the associated knock-on effects to other trains), but people can get on board easiy.
• The train has to use a different platform but is held. This makes it later for everyone (with the associated knock-on effects to other trains), but people can get on board easiy.

Signallers do not take pride in platform alterations. They do it when it is necessary to keep trains moving as efficiently as possible. The options I have outlined above are the possible options for a signaller when they are presented with this form of choise. For the bigger picture, the first option is the best. Yes, it's annoying, but I don't know what can be done.

"They" could put platform alterations up when the new route is set? (I don't know who inputs platform screen information).
A few weeks ago I was awaiting a Gatwick train on Guildford p8. At around the time it was due, I heard diesel engines behind me and turned round to see a GWR unit entering p6, so knowing that it had to be the Gatwick train I headed for the stairs. As I did so, the platform screens on p8 started the "this is a platform alteration" sequence.
The train was stopped in p6 for a few minutes so I don't think anyone missed it, but several passengers with heavy luggage looked worried and hot and bothered as they rushed for it.
No train used p8 until (at least) well after we'd departed. When the Gatwick train was cleared from the p8 screens, the next departure up was a Reading train about 15 minutes later. I'm sure someone had their reasons for the switch but they certainly weren't obvious, and didn't take account of possibly elderly or slow-walking passengers with luggage (not unknown on Gatwick services).

 

[jfollows]

All too often, though, the passengers only become aware when the train description steps into the platform (when the train passes the last signal). There wouldn’t normally be a problem if they were advised earlier, which should be possible as the decision is rarely *that* last minute.

That's something that should be fixed, I agree, but isn't unique to Finsbury Park as already said - I used to live near Manchester Oxford Road and exactly this happened (probably still happens) for departures from platform 4 being switched to platform 3 without warning. It's not acceptable and shouldn't happen, but it does.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The worst example I have had (and I have posted this before) was at Bristol Temple Meads where I was on a platform, there was a platform change announcement, and as I got to the bottom of the steps to the subway to go to the new platform, another platform change announcement happened changing it back to the original platform. All the platform staff could say is to ignore it as it often is wrong, but that really isn't helpful for times when it isn't wrong!

 

[nickswift99]

Happens frequently at Reading. I've noticed its worse in the late evening - typically as engineering possessions start but services are still running. There's usually little or no station staff about and the automated announcements are, at best, barely reliable.

 

[Esker-pades]

"They" could put platform alterations up when the new route is set? (I don't know who inputs platform screen information).
A few weeks ago I was awaiting a Gatwick train on Guildford p8. At around the time it was due, I heard diesel engines behind me and turned round to see a GWR unit entering p6, so knowing that it had to be the Gatwick train I headed for the stairs. As I did so, the platform screens on p8 started the "this is a platform alteration" sequence.
The train was stopped in p6 for a few minutes so I don't think anyone missed it, but several passengers with heavy luggage looked worried and hot and bothered as they rushed for it.
No train used p8 until (at least) well after we'd departed. When the Gatwick train was cleared from the p8 screens, the next departure up was a Reading train about 15 minutes later. I'm sure someone had their reasons for the switch but they certainly weren't obvious, and didn't take account of possibly elderly or slow-walking passengers with luggage (not unknown on Gatwick services).

I believe this is already done. It is simply not possible at Finsbury Park or other places because the route can be set as late as the last signal before the platforms, IE: 30 seconds or so before the train actually arrives.

 

[nr758123]

All too often, though, the passengers only become aware when the train description steps into the platform (when the train passes the last signal). There wouldn’t normally be a problem if they were advised earlier, which should be possible as the decision is rarely *that* last minute.

Experienced this at Stalybridge before now, with the time between announcement of the platform alteration and arrival of the train turning out to be less than the time it took to run from platform 3 to platform 4. I'm not really designed for running.

 

[silverfoxcc]

I may get flamed for this, but reading the RO, it seems that the mantra 'minutes must not be lost' has more sway as it could result in money changing hands, and any fule know that it is the bean counters that run the business for the CEO and shareholders, and woe betide anyone who takes a brass farthing out of the corporate pot.
There was an a item in the RO that involved a fatality. Nothing about people, just thousands of minutes lost ( and no doubt someone will have to pay)
I did read once on here from one poster that the services are not run for the benefit of the public. I thought they were being a bit sarcastic, but other posts from the same chap bore this sentiment out. Surley the world would not stop spinning if a little thought was applied now and then for passengers?, but with everything being timed to the nansecond, and no recovery minutes included,,it would appear that this is not now the case.
Not a rant at anyone ( apart from the bottom line counters) just an observation.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Are TOCs meant to respect minimum connection times when there’s a platform alteration?

The alterations aren’t their fault, but they can decide when to dispatch trains.

GTR will frequently ignore the 5 minute time at Finsbury Park and then blame passengers for missing the train from the revised platform.

For example this morning’s 11.38 to Horsham is scheduled for platform 2. It’s running late and the alteration happens at 11.42 or 11.43. The train then left 5 minutes late from another platform, so passengers had 2 minutes to change platforms.

No voice announcement, so unless you’re standing beneath the screens you’re screwed.

Out of curiosity, why do different booking engines have different connection times? For example there is some stuff that doesn't show up on National Rail Enquiries but does on GA journey planner. Once I had an argument about this being told that it wasn't an advertised connection.

 

[Mathew S]

That's something that should be fixed, I agree, but isn't unique to Finsbury Park as already said - I used to live near Manchester Oxford Road and exactly this happened (probably still happens) for departures from platform 4 being switched to platform 3 without warning. It's not acceptable and shouldn't happen, but it does.

Very, very unusual to see this at Manchester Oxford Road now. Usual practice seems to be to delay trains rather than switch platforms unless there is genuinely no choice.

 

[221129]

I'll normally give a reasonable amount of time where possible for last minute platform alterations but if people are dawdling they will miss their train.

 

[jfollows]

Very, very unusual to see this at Manchester Oxford Road now.

That's really good news, thank you.

Last time was late at night a couple of years ago, I sat on platform 4 adjacent to the departure board advertising the train to Wilmslow for about 15 minutes prior to its scheduled arrival. At the last second it was changed to platform 3. I have had a stroke and can't run, and walking over the bridge isn't speedy for me, so I ended up pushing past large numbers of people who had got off the train and were walking up the stairs from platform 3. I made the train, just, and was very annoyed.

 

[Taunton]

Nothing new. See from 1:30 to 2:10 of this old French film

 

[LowLevel]

If there's a crew change and we have one of those annoying platform alterations that's quite blatantly a cock up either from planning or the box/station staff not talking to each other when it only rolls over as the train describer moves into the platform berth then I walk behind the last passenger and the train can't leave until I get there *shrug*

The problem being if there isn't a crew change the inbound crew won't generally know about the alteration.

 

[pdeaves]

There was an a item in the RO that involved a fatality. Nothing about people, just thousands of minutes lost ( and no doubt someone will have to pay)

In fairness, the RO reports just what members/correspondents send in. If the delay minute element is all that interests that member, it's what will appear in print. Someone else reporting the same incident could well put a different slant on it (like the 'people cost').

 

[Failed Unit]

Finsbury Park is a nightmare in the peak. It happens very frequently and as others have said you can't actaully tell until the last minute when the train suddenly heads into 4.

Then you have 12 cars worth of passengers wanting the core train (as the distribute themselves down the platform) fighting 12 cars of passengers from the service that has just arrived heading to the Moorgate train.

I have frequently experience this when platfrom 1 and 2 have remained unoccupied for the entire duration of the train arriving / leaving from platform 4.

I know it is mision impossible but Fisbury Park isn't designed for the people that need to interchange there. When all trains are on 1 / 2 it copes much better with people transfering between outer / metro services.

But many people miss trains because of these many last minute changes. The wise ones stand by the top of the stairs expecting it. The foolish move down the platform. The change onto platform 5 doesn't seem to happen as much.