Miniscule Electrification Jobs not currently proposed question

[Anvil1984]

Probably a random question but got me thinking

If you electrified Newcastle (King Edward Bridge South) to Metrocentre (Swalwell Jn) you could replace 3 DMU diagrams for a total roughly 6.5 miles of OHLE. Once the TPE line to Hull is wired if you wired the line between Church Fenton and Gascoigne Wood which is again about 7 miles of OHLE (total) and you'd save at least 2 DMU diagrams (no pattern to which York services go via Sherburn and which ones don't.

So for less than 15 miles you could save replace 5 DMUs (not groundbreaking) but is there other minuscule gaps of under 10 miles where you could save the same proportion of stock without changing the timetable around?

 

[HSTEd]

Well there is always the Rose Hill Marple branch - electrification to Guide Bridge would permit at least some of the diagrams to go electric, and minor rejigging of the timetable could make it all potentially.

 

[londiscape]

I think it's slightly over 10 miles (not by much, however), but Crewe to Chester OHLE could allow EMU operation for the 1tph from Euston service (less those that extend over the North Wales coast).

Not that simple though, I realise, there would be stock availability issues and other factors to consider...

 

[Emyr]

Well there is always the Rose Hill Marple branch - electrification to Guide Bridge would permit at least some of the diagrams to go electric, and minor rejigging of the timetable could make it all potentially.

Well they could, but considering how hard it is for Northern to get EMUs for Liverpool-Manchester, chances of them turning up in Marple...

 

[DJH1971]

I think it's slightly over 10 miles (not by much, however), but Crewe to Chester OHLE could allow EMU operation for the 1tph from Euston service (less those that extend over the North Wales coast).

Not that simple though, I realise, there would be stock availability issues and other factors to consider...

I heard a few months back that this was actually being looked at, along with Manchester to Sheffield and others.

 

[L+Y]

The Southport line would seem to make sense, given Bolton-Wigan is now being electrified. It's about ten miles long and is a relatively flat and straight route. Not sure how many DMUs would be freed up by this particular infill: maybe three or four?

 

[DJH1971]

There was also talk of electrification between Warrington Bank Quay to Chester (via Runcorn East, Frodsham and Helsby) as well.

 

[snowball]

I heard a few months back that this [Crewe-Chester] was actually being looked at, along with Manchester to Sheffield and others.

Yes, the DfT announced it in December. The others are Selby-Hull (since funded to be developed to GRIP stage 3), Warrington-Chester, Sheffield-Doncaster, Sheffield to Leeds (presumably meaning Moorthorpe), Leeds-Harrogate-York and ECML to Middlesbrough.

It was simultaneous with the Bolton-Wigan announcement.

The word in the thread title should be "minuscule", by the way.

 

[DownSouth]

The word in the thread title should be "minuscule", by the way.

As much as Apple just corrected me, miniscule is an equally acceptable spelling of the word these days, a bit like gaol/jail.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Bushbury jn. to Stafford Road jn. a.k.a. the Oxley chord.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think it's slightly over 10 miles (not by much, however), but Crewe to Chester OHLE could allow EMU operation for the 1tph from Euston service (less those that extend over the North Wales coast).

20 miles actually (21, but the first mile out of Crewe is already wired).
Chester station will be expensive to wire - 4 through lines, 3 eastern bays and the triangle to the west. 3rd rail DC in places too.

Lancaster-Morecambe is only 2 miles to wire.
The Ashburys/Hyde-Romiley-Rose Hill/New Mills lines add up to 15 route miles.
Talk of tram-trains doesn't help their case for main-line wiring.

 

[30907]

Assuming the EMUs can be made available, another factor to consider is whether the route can form part of a wider EMU network or stands alone, as generally maintaining small sub-fleets isn't efficient (same applies to DMUs too).

So Metrocentre-Morpeth probably makes better sense as part of Heaton's DMU diagrams (I assume working it with the TPE EMU fleet isn't an option!) -

Hull-York would be better, as it could work in with Neville Hill's other routes; though here another question is whether a 4-car EMU might be over-generous for the traffic on offer!

 

[IanXC]

Hull-York would be better, as it could work in with Neville Hill's other routes; though here another question is whether a 4-car EMU might be over-generous for the traffic on offer!

Assuming journey times were reduced I think there would be a significant opportunity to gain new passengers on this route. The bus services are busy, as is the A1079, as rail is currently a poor competition.

 

[Rapidash]

Anything south of Bristol

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Lancaster-Morecambe (mentioned a few posts back) might not be as beneficial as it seems- It would only allow the handful of Lancaster-Morecambe shuttles to go electric, and even that only on the assumption that those aren't interworked with services through to Leeds.

 

[BantamMenace]

Lancaster-Morecambe (mentioned a few posts back) might not be as beneficial as it seems- It would only allow the handful of Lancaster-Morecambe shuttles to go electric, and even that only on the assumption that those aren't interworked with services through to Leeds.

Im a regular user of this service as an airedale valley originating student at Lancaster. These days very very few remain on the train in Lancaster. Its a case of everyone from east of Lancaster gets off and the locals returning to Bare and Morecambe from Lancaster get on. Cutting the Leeds services back to Lancaster and introducing a half hourly EMU shuttle from Lancaster to Morecambe seems very logical to me as even though bus services are extremely handy for going to morecambe from lancaster city centre they're not effective at serving the train station itself.

(As a side point the Leeds service i think should reverse at Lancaster and go to Barrow, not Morecambe in my opinion even though this would serve Carnforth twice.)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Lancaster-Morecambe (mentioned a few posts back) might not be as beneficial as it seems- It would only allow the handful of Lancaster-Morecambe shuttles to go electric, and even that only on the assumption that those aren't interworked with services through to Leeds.

But it would bring a regular through Morecambe-(eg) Manchester train into play.
Currently it's the unwanted fag end of Leeds services.

 

[HSTEd]

Well they could, but considering how hard it is for Northern to get EMUs for Liverpool-Manchester, chances of them turning up in Marple...

Hopefully this will cease to be the case once Thameslink and Crossrail complete though when we will be swimming in PEP series EMUs.

 

[evergreenadam]

The two missing links in the North Downs route - Reigate to Shalford Junction and Aldershot South Junction to Wokingham.

Would free up 7 three car DMUs for use elsewhere and if replaced with new four car EMUs would provide extra capacity.

Great Western franchise specification is currently out to consultation, so perhaps could be suggested in consultation responses:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/great-western-specification-for-the-future-franchise

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Lancaster-Morecambe (mentioned a few posts back) might not be as beneficial as it seems- It would only allow the handful of Lancaster-Morecambe shuttles to go electric, and even that only on the assumption that those aren't interworked with services through to Leeds.

Clearly lots of potential.

Given the shortage of DMU's nationally and the suggestion that few, if any, news DMU's will be built, ever, are such 'easy wins' being considered?

Lancaster to Morecambe and Oxenholme to Windermere are obvious examples. With a bit of diagram / timetable rejigging the Lancaster - Barrow - Carlisle service could become self-contained or linked to the Leeds service for unit swap (as happens at present I think).

Electrification of these two branches would free up a minimum of two diesel units - and give potential for through services to Manchester / Liverpool / London.

The Leeds to Morecambe service could be truncated at either end allowing a more frequent service to operate between Skipton and Lancaster without requiring extra units (but with the disadvantage of a change at Skipton for through passengers).

It may seem small numbers but one unit here, a couple of units there, soon starts to add up to a worthwhile number.

 

[snowball]

Oxenholme to Windermere was sort of quasi-authorised last year.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/electric-route-for-lake-district

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Leeds to Morecambe service could be truncated at either end allowing a more frequent service to operate between Skipton and Lancaster without requiring extra units (but with the disadvantage of a change at Skipton for through passengers).

It may seem small numbers but one unit here, a couple of units there, soon starts to add up to a worthwhile number.

The OP was asking for examples that would require minimal changes to diagrams, hence my objection to the mention of Morecambe. As you say, it is a short stretch and would free up diesel units- but only by re-drawing the diagrams of units used. As for the Skipton-Lancaster stretch, I'm not sure the best use of freed diesels would be to increase the service along a fairly poorly-used line, even accepting that the current poor service is suppressing demand. Doesn't this line include one of the longest block sections on NR at present? That might also limit just how much the service could be improved without having yet more money spent on adding an intermediate block.

 

[bluenoxid]

Electrification allows for some real opportunities to review service provision on route, so small projects with potentially massive recasting potential should not be ignored.

Some suggestions in addition to those already suggested

Leeds - Horsforth. Allows for the speeding up of existing DMU services on the line.
Leeds - Castleford - Church Fenton. Takes the Hull - York service over to electric and offers additional services between Leeds and Castleford, York and Hull
Leeds - Bradford Interchange - Huddersfield. Relieves capacity on the busier section of this route.
Newcastle - Heworth - Washington. Everyone is quick to ask for the Metro but my view is that the less busy national rail line would be the best way to get trains back to Washington
Morpeth to Ashington. The idea has been on the drawing board for some time and it would bring another north east town back on to the rail network

 

[34D]

Erm, some of us use the Leeds-Heysham boat train in full.... please don't go making us change twice!

It doesn't seem as though _that_ much wiring is needed to make 90% of routes worked from Neville Hill, Longsight, Newton Heath and Allerton electric. Heaton as stated would be a different matter

 

[swt_passenger]

Great Western franchise specification is currently out to consultation, so perhaps could be suggested in consultation responses:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/great-western-specification-for-the-future-franchise

Not really, infrastructure improvements are not the responsibility of incoming TOCs. It needs to go in a route strategy.

 

[Bald Rick]

Leeds - Horsforth. Allows for the speeding up of existing DMU services on the line.

I did this yesterday, and whilst waiting at Horsforth wondered if electrification would be worth it. It wouldn't save much journey time, maybe a minute or two. But it would make it easier to increase capacity.

Full and standing on a 2 coach sprinter Saturday mid-afternoon!

 

[DJH1971]

Yes, the DfT announced it in December. The others are Selby-Hull (since funded to be developed to GRIP stage 3), Warrington-Chester, Sheffield-Doncaster, Sheffield to Leeds (presumably meaning Moorthorpe), Leeds-Harrogate-York and ECML to Middlesbrough.

It was simultaneous with the Bolton-Wigan announcement.

The word in the thread title should be "minuscule", by the way.

Electrification of Manchester to Sheffield could also strengthen the case for wiring the Liverpool to Manchester CLC line.

 

[BantamMenace]

I did this yesterday, and whilst waiting at Horsforth wondered if electrification would be worth it. It wouldn't save much journey time, maybe a minute or two. But it would make it easier to increase capacity.

Full and standing on a 2 coach sprinter Saturday mid-afternoon!

You should try it when there's either form of rugby or cricket on at Headingley which occurs probably around 150 days of the year

 

[Bald Rick]

You should try it when there's either form of rugby or cricket on at Headingley which occurs probably around 150 days of the year

I will be in 6 weeks for the test.

 

[tbtc]

is there other minuscule gaps of under 10 miles where you could save the same proportion of stock without changing the timetable around?

This is the kind of question I enjoy...

Whilst there's merit in electrifying a number of the lines suggested on this thread (e.g. I think that Morecambe could justify a regular EMU shuttle to Lancaster, plus some through services to Manchester/ Liverpool - rather than being tacked on to a West Yorkshire service that harks back to the days when it it was known as "Bradford On Sea") that'd mean tinkering with the timetables.

There are a number of shortish stand alone branches that could be electrified to free up DMUs (Sudbury - Marks Tey) there's the issue of whether a three/four coach would be overkill to replace a short DMU (153 in the case of Marks Tey - Sudbury).

Hmm... are there any Glasgow area branches not already committed to? Is Queen Street to Anniesland definitely going to happen?

Hazel Grove to Buxton is only marginally outside the OP's rules - would you let me get away with about a dozen miles?

(if we are going to chop and change timetables then there are a few places, but I respect the OP's rules, otherwise we get into "fantasy" territory)

Leeds - Horsforth. Allows for the speeding up of existing DMU services on the line.

Having the Harrogate services skip Burley Park and Headingly would shave a couple of minutes, but you're going to struggle to find extra paths at the Leeds end of the route.

Leeds - Castleford - Church Fenton. Takes the Hull - York service over to electric and offers additional services between Leeds and Castleford, York and Hull

Approx 25 miles - one of those "if you do that, then you might as well do..." schemes (i.e. Castleford - Pontefract - Knottingley, Knottingley - Wakefield)

Leeds - Bradford Interchange - Huddersfield. Relieves capacity on the busier section of this route

Probably another 25 miles - since the Calder Valley route is going to be high up many people's CP6 wish list, I can see the logic in doing the Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield bit first to free up at least that hourly service