Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge

[Solent&Wessex]

That's because the fastest connection from Sowerby Bridge to Leeds is generally on a train that doubles back through Brighouse and Mirfield again. You need to specify a longer wait time to get a train that goes via Halifax and Bradford; see attached.

That it does.

Specifying via SOW and HFX does show as valid.

I'll take back what I said.

As a matter of interest, looking back at my older maps and routeing permissions from 2012 / 2013 / 2014, before the maps became the current format, it was not valid that way, so whether it is meant to be valid that way is of course open to debate, but somewhat irrelevant for now though.

 

[Starmill]

I think one thing we should all have learned by now is that what is 'intended' is an incredibly elusive concept that can be used by both sides to justify diametrically opposed viewpoints! In other words it's barely worth considering the concept. Of course that annual season is now a contract which has been formed for an entire year, sobregardless of changes that may or may not be made I wouldn't expect any trouble using it.

 

[TUC]

That reflects a question that had occurred to me. If someone has bought a season ticket (or just a single flexible ticket well in advance) and the Routing Guide changes between the purchase and the journey, does the Routing Guide in use at the time of purchase still have effect?

 

[Deerfold]

That reflects a question that had occurred to me. If someone has bought a season ticket (or just a single flexible ticket well in advance) and the Routing Guide changes between the purchase and the journey, does the Routing Guide in use at the time of purchase still have effect?

In theory it should be the one at the time of purchase.

As to how you prove that (short of getting an itinery for every variant you might use I'm not sure).

I don't believe there is any official archive of the routeing guide for particular dates.

 

[strowger]

That reflects a question that had occurred to me. If someone has bought a season ticket (or just a single flexible ticket well in advance) and the Routing Guide changes between the purchase and the journey, does the Routing Guide in use at the time of purchase still have effect?

The validity at time of purchase is that which applies at time of usage. Hence my having purchased an annual season - it seems unlikely to me that the current situation with the MIR-LDS fare will last long. A negative easement will probably be along shortly.

As well as the MIR-LDS fare being lower, the season is also much cheaper as a multiple of the daily price. SOW-LDS 7DS is 4x the SDR price, whereas MIR-LDS 7DS is 3.5x the SDR price. As a SOW-LDS commuter, the difference is £400pa - a 40% saving.

 

[yorkie]

That reflects a question that had occurred to me. If someone has bought a season ticket (or just a single flexible ticket well in advance) and the Routing Guide changes between the purchase and the journey, does the Routing Guide in use at the time of purchase still have effect?

What matters is the validity at the time of purchase.

 

[TUC]

As well as the MIR-LDS fare being lower, the season is also much cheaper as a multiple of the daily price. SOW-LDS 7DS is 4x the SDR price, whereas MIR-LDS 7DS is 3.5x the SDR price. As a SOW-LDS commuter, the difference is £400pa - a 40% saving.

Have variations like that developed just through differential draft in season ticket prices between routes over time or different inflation rates being consciously applied by TOCs to different routes?

 

[strowger]

Have variations like that developed just through differential draft in season ticket prices between routes over time or different inflation rates being consciously applied by TOCs to different routes?

The fares are set by WYPTE, according to brfares.com. I would be interested to learn how much input Northern and TPE have.

They seem to have a vague policy of keeping season prices just a bit under Metrocard prices. There are interesting anomalies all over, especially where a WYPTE fare allows travel over rail routes outside of West Yorkshire.

 

[Deerfold]

The fares are set by WYPTE, according to brfares.com. I would be interested to learn how much input Northern and TPE have.

They seem to have a vague policy of keeping season prices just a bit under Metrocard prices. There are interesting anomalies all over, especially where a WYPTE fare allows travel over rail routes outside of West Yorkshire.

Northern appears to have no trouble adding the evening restrictions against the wishes of WYMetro.

 

[Merseysider]

That reflects a question that had occurred to me. If someone has bought a season ticket (or just a single flexible ticket well in advance) and the Routing Guide changes between the purchase and the journey, does the Routing Guide in use at the time of purchase still have effect?

If the terms of the contract became more favourable to the customer (ie extra validity) the customer can choose whether or not he/she accepts the new conditions in prevalence over the original ones. If the terms of the contract become less favourable, the customer can reject these or end the contract at no penalty most of the time.

 

[TUC]

It's established above that Leeds to Sowerby Bridge via Halifax is permitted but suggested that the other route on a direct train via Brighouse may not be valid. Would the latter be different if a season ticket was being used as Leeds to Mirfield via Brighouse is a permitted route, therefore the Leeds to Brighouse section is valid. For the Brighouse to Sowerby Bridge section, that forms part of the Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby route and so one is effectively taking part of a return journey to Leeds via Sowerby.

 

[strowger]

It's established above that Leeds to Sowerby Bridge via Halifax is permitted but suggested that the other route on a direct train via Brighouse may not be valid. Would the latter be different if a season ticket was being used as Leeds to Mirfield via Brighouse is a permitted route, therefore the Leeds to Brighouse section is valid. For the Brighouse to Sowerby Bridge section, that forms part of the Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby route and so one is effectively taking part of a return journey to Leeds via Sowerby.

I don't think there's any suggestion above that Leeds to Sowerby Bridge via Brighouse is invalid.

It's a route with direct trains, a mapped route along map LY, as well as being an obviously-sensible route. I wouldn't expect any hassle even changing trains at stations along the route.

 

[Deerfold]

It's established above that Leeds to Sowerby Bridge via Halifax is permitted but suggested that the other route on a direct train via Brighouse may not be valid. Would the latter be different if a season ticket was being used as Leeds to Mirfield via Brighouse is a permitted route, therefore the Leeds to Brighouse section is valid. For the Brighouse to Sowerby Bridge section, that forms part of the Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby route and so one is effectively taking part of a return journey to Leeds via Sowerby.

Whilst I don't think there's any suggestion that Leeds to Sowerby Bridge via Brighouse is not valid (and I've done it myself, buying a ticket on the train) you can't use the argument you've provided.

You're allowed to call at points along your season ticket if they're on a valid route. The routeing guide is not recursive so you can't have a season ticket valid from A to E and then say, as C is a valid station to call at between A and E then I must be able to call at B, which is on a route between A and C. It may be valid, but you have to check it's on a valid route between A and E.

 

[yorkie]

It's established above that Leeds to Sowerby Bridge via Halifax is permitted but suggested that the other route on a direct train via Brighouse may not be valid.

Are you talking about a Leeds to Sowerby Bridge ticket, or a Leeds to Mirfield ticket?

It's worded as if you mean the former, in which case both routes are unquestionably valid (as well as direct trains also being valid). But that should be in a new thread titled Leeds to Sowerby Bridge.

If you mean the latter, and you're talking about a Leeds to Mirfield ticket, then I think you need to re-word your post.

 

[TUC]

Are you talking about a Leeds to Sowerby Bridge ticket, or a Leeds to Mirfield ticket?

It's worded as if you mean the former, in which case both routes are unquestionably valid (as well as direct trains also being valid). But that should be in a new thread titled Leeds to Sowerby Bridge.

If you mean the latter, and you're talking about a Leeds to Mirfield ticket, then I think you need to re-word your post.

Sorry for any confusion. I was meaning in the context of the OP and subsequent comments, whether a Leeds to Mirfield season ticket was valid on a Leeds to Sowerby Bridge via Brighouse train, even if an individual Leeds to Mirfield ticket may not be for that particular route (See my post above for the rationale.)

 

[strowger]

Sorry for any confusion. I was meaning in the context of the OP and subsequent comments, whether a Leeds to Mirfield season ticket was valid on a Leeds to Sowerby Bridge via Brighouse train, even if an individual Leeds to Mirfield ticket may not be for that particular route (See my post above for the rationale.)

You cannot travel Leeds-Sowerby Bridge via Brighouse, using just a Leeds-Mirfield single ticket.

Once the train has reached Mirfield, further travel is over-distance and a suitable excess or additional ticket will be necessary.

 

[TUC]

You cannot travel Leeds-Sowerby Bridge via Brighouse, using just a Leeds-Mirfield single ticket.

Once the train has reached Mirfield, further travel is over-distance and a suitable excess or additional ticket will be necessary.

But my query a few posts above was in relation to a season ticket. For that, issues of over-distance presumably would not arise as the leg from Mirfield-Sowetby Bridge (or Brighouse-Sowerby Bridge in this case as travelling to Brighouse with a Leeds-Mirfield ticket on a non-stop Leeds-Brighouse service looks to be valid anyway) would be covered as effectively being a leg of a return Mirfield-Leeds (via Halifax) journey, albeit being taken as part of a continuous journey through Brighouse.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry for any confusion. I was meaning in the context of the OP and subsequent comments, whether a Leeds to Mirfield season ticket was valid on a Leeds to Sowerby Bridge via Brighouse train, even if an individual Leeds to Mirfield ticket may not be for that particular route (See my post above for the rationale.)

A train such as this the 1723 Leeds - Manchester Victoria, which calls at, among other stations, Dewsbury, Mirfield, Brighouse and Sowerby Bridge?

Leeds - Dewsbury - Mirfield is permitted by the fact it's the shortest route, and the fact it's a direct train, and the fact it's a mapped route.

Mirfield - Brighouse - Sowerby Bridge - Halifax - Leeds (in this case, changing or finishing short at Sowerby Bridge) is a permitted route for the reasons stated above.

Obviously a single ticket expires at Mirfield as you say. The outward portion of a return ticket would also expire at Mirfield. A season ticket would be valid for unlimited journeys as described in the Season Tickets section of our Fares Guide.

 

[strowger]

But my query a few posts above was in relation to a season ticket. For that, issues of over-distance presumably would not arise as the leg from Mirfield-Sowetby Bridge (or Brighouse-Sowerby Bridge in this case as travelling to Brighouse with a Leeds-Mirfield ticket on a non-stop Leeds-Brighouse service looks to be valid anyway) would be covered as effectively being a leg of a return Mirfield-Leeds (via Halifax) journey, albeit being taken as part of a continuous journey through Brighouse.

Agreed.

Hopefully we're done with this now.

If any rail staff ever notice my ticket, I'll report it here...

 

[34D]

I think the grey area would be using the grey ticket on a Leeds-Dewsbury-Brighouse train that doesn't call at Mirfield.

Is there any such train, before we waste time unnecessarily? I suppose a Man Vic-Leeds non stop via Rochdale if we have one on a sunday?

Lots of previous threads discussing the grey areas - no real consensus.

 

[strowger]

I think the grey area would be using the grey ticket on a Leeds-Dewsbury-Brighouse train that doesn't call at Mirfield.

Is there any such train, before we waste time unnecessarily? I suppose a Man Vic-Leeds non stop via Rochdale if we have one on a Sunday.

I don't believe there is such an animal (on the Calder Valley route) in the timetable. There is all manner of crazy when there's disruption of course. Once did HBD-LDS non stop in 30 mins on an empty 158...

 

[Crossover]

I think the grey area would be using the grey ticket on a Leeds-Dewsbury-Brighouse train that doesn't call at Mirfield.

Is there any such train, before we waste time unnecessarily? I suppose a Man Vic-Leeds non stop via Rochdale if we have one on a sunday?

Lots of previous threads discussing the grey areas - no real consensus.

Ordinarily all Northern services call at Mirfield. Generally only on diversion will any Northern service go non stop through Mirfield and Dewsbury - usually these are the Leeds to Blackpool North services, re-routed from Bradford Interchange

 

[TUC]

A train such as this the 1723 Leeds - Manchester Victoria, which calls at, among other stations, Dewsbury, Mirfield, Brighouse and Sowerby Bridge?.

My error, setting this aspect going. Metro's Calder Valley timetable shows no stops between Leeds and Brighouse for the 1723 and I mistakenly took this to mean it was non-stop between these points, not realising that there are intermediate stops not shown.

 

[yorkie]

There is a question over whether or not a Season is valid non-stop through one of the stations it's issued from/to.

I'd strongly advising against this, unless you have a letter from the TOC stating they believe it's valid, or otherwise authorising you to do this.

Not applicable in this case, but Infobleep did get such authorisation from FGW for a Season issued from Shalford.

 

[mikeg]

700575: Journeys between Huddersfield; Deighton and Mirfield to Leeds and beyond may not travel via Sowerby Bridge. Journeys may however travel via Halifax. This negative easement applies in both directions

Grrr... Either way it's been 'clarified' by the powers-that-be at ATOC now.

 

[yorkie]

No surprises. I wonder if they got DfT permission so quickly or if they take the view they don't need permission?

DfT would say yes anyway so its moot.

Of course a ticket that has already purchased remains valid.

 

[TUC]

Ah well. I will console myself with the thought that , as I only raised the query at the stsrt of last week, I don't think that prompted the negstive easement. I simply don't think that the combination of West Yorkshire PTE and ATOC is capable of moving that quickly!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Oh they are when they see mistakes pointed out on this very forum!

 

[yorkie]

Ah well. I will console myself with the thought that , as I only raised the query at the stsrt of last week, I don't think that prompted the negstive easement. I simply don't think that the combination of West Yorkshire PTE and ATOC is capable of moving that quickly!

Of course it is. They read this forum, and it's happened just as quick, sometimes quicker, on previous occasions.

It can be amusing when someone asks about an anomaly and it gets 'fixed' before they've even had the chance to buy the ticket

But nothing can beat All Line Rover posting about how he couldn't complain if an anomaly was 'fixed', and this was used against him in his own FOI request as justification for fixing the anomaly.

Sometimes they're in our favour, see Permitted route between Crewe and Hellifield this was fixed on 6th November, despite only being posted on 1st November.

 

[adrock1976]

I'm of the view that changes to the routeing guide should only be done either at the timetable change, or at the fares round.

This would give a more reasonable time for any amendments to bed in, and to give a better chance of errors in previous permitted/reasonable routes coming to light without having an adverse effect on other routes.

Furthermore, my perception is that these "minor amendments" are happening on a far too frequent basis.

In peace

Adam