Misformed units

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6Gman

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Can anyone help me with this one?

To what degree do units run with 'incorrect' formations these days? i.e. with other than their designated vehicles.

In the 'good old days' first generation DMUs ran in all manner of weird and wonderful combinations, not just within Classes, but often with sets of mismatched vehicles e.g. Chester would turn out a MC power car with a Park Royal trailer etc. In other cases unit formations seemed inviolable - for example I never saw a North London set (Class 501) in anything other than its prescribed order.

The impression I get is that units now stick pretty well to their formations (presumably because of the computer software issues of swopping vehicles around?), but I do remember seeing a misformed 175 a couple of years ago.

So do vehicles ever swap among units of other Classes?
 
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IanXC

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This does happen still from time to time:
-153399 formed of a 153 and a 150 coach due to an accident meaning the othe coach was out of action for repair for some time.
-FGW hybrid 158s are made up by breaking a 2 car to add to 2 2cars to make 3car units.
-Old Oak Common have been known to insert coaches from other 180s into Hull Trains 180s.
-Virgin have broken up a 4car 221 to make 2 others into 5car units, one of which has 2 shops.

I'm sure there are others but those are my first thoughts!

 

route:oxford

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This does happen still from time to time:
-153399 formed of a 153 and a 150 coach due to an accident meaning the othe coach was out of action for repair for some time.
-FGW hybrid 158s are made up by breaking a 2 car to add to 2 2cars to make 3car units.
-Old Oak Common have been known to insert coaches from other 180s into Hull Trains 180s.
-Virgin have broken up a 4car 221 to make 2 others into 5car units, one of which has 2 shops.

I'm sure there are others but those are my first thoughts!

Would love to see a 3 car 180 and a 7 car 180.
 

6Gman

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This does happen still from time to time:
-153399 formed of a 153 and a 150 coach due to an accident meaning the othe coach was out of action for repair for some time.
-FGW hybrid 158s are made up by breaking a 2 car to add to 2 2cars to make 3car units.
-Old Oak Common have been known to insert coaches from other 180s into Hull Trains 180s.
-Virgin have broken up a 4car 221 to make 2 others into 5car units, one of which has 2 shops.

I'm sure there are others but those are my first thoughts!

Thanks for that, but I was thinking more of the ad hoc examples (such as 153 399) rather than the semi-permanent arrangements like the 5 car Voyagers (The two shop unit is also the lots and lots of tables and decent views unit).
 

fgwrich

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This does happen still from time to time:
-153399 formed of a 153 and a 150 coach due to an accident meaning the othe coach was out of action for repair for some time.
-FGW hybrid 158s are made up by breaking a 2 car to add to 2 2cars to make 3car units.
-Old Oak Common have been known to insert coaches from other 180s into Hull Trains 180s.
-Virgin have broken up a 4car 221 to make 2 others into 5car units, one of which has 2 shops.

I'm sure there are others but those are my first thoughts!

Indeed, there seems to be one running around like that at the moment...Refurbished Hull, with 1 Ex Barbie coach inserted!
 

Yew

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Didnt LM? Run 150's in three car formations using the 150/0's as centre cars?

Northern have two pacers that have been damaged recently, we might end up with a hybrid there..
 

IanXC

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Didnt LM? Run 150's in three car formations using the 150/0's as centre cars?

Northern have two pacers that have been damaged recently, we might end up with a hybrid there..
LM did indeed, although they were 150/1s with 150/2 units broken up to form centre cars, these were then numbered as 150/0s to follow on from the prototype 150001 and 150002.

I think both of the damaged Northern pacers are 142s though?
 

DXMachina

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took a train to Reading in the 90s, saw a 3-car NSE DMU made of three different classes. Metro-cammell driving car, the normal Reading suburban type centre carriage with many slam doors (117?) and what could have been a 104 driving car (vaguely recognised from using same on St.Albans abbey branch years earlier.)
 

jopsuk

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I'd guess though that (especially with more modern units) reforming is frowned upon except in extremis due to more tightly controlled maintenance schedules, often laid down by the manufacturer- and mileage based leasing costs.
 
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Yes i remember travelling on the misformed Class 142 set. The Northern Spirit liveried car was part of 142066 with the Northern Spirit refurb inside, and the Regional Railways livered car was part of 142074 with the original interior. The set was then renumbered to 142074.

I travelled on 156409 (57409) + 153356 making up a two car set after 52409 was away on crash damage after it hit a van. The No1 cab end (original cab) of 153356 was coupled against 57409 and on the 2nd mans side of the 153 cab was where the wheelchair ramp got stored.

I travelled on 156410 which was formed of 57410 in Central Livery and 57412 in Regional Railways Express livery, luckily i only travelled on it between Doncaster and Lincoln, but for longer journeys it could of been an uncomfortable ride for some passengers as it had no toilet facilities. I did read in a Railway magazine at the time this set was in operation and it worked a Skegness to Crewe service and had to make longer stops at staffed stations for passengers to use the toilets on the station.

Central Trains formed quite a few mis-formed sets over the years, im a DMU fan so i use to visit Lincoln, Nottingham and Birmingham quite regular so it wasnt hard to find the mis-formed sets in operation.

One Railway and NXEA formed quite a few mis-formed sets with class 156s due to maintainence, so instead of having two sets out of use which they couldnt afford they reformed half of each set even if it was for a day or two so they were only 1 set down.
 

theblackwatch

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455918 ran as 3-car in 2000 and 2001

http://www.southernelectric.org.uk/features/71731.html

Also, in my opinion the 455/7s look missformed with the 508 TSO, although they were designated to the subclass in the first place
I've a picture of a hybrid 455 I took in about 1990 with one car in blue/grey and three in NSE. It might have even been two sub-class variants, will have to try and track down the shot.
 

6Gman

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So when I go up to London next week it's proably safe for me to assume that:

a) the London Overground 378s are formed as per the book;
b) Ilford/ East Ham units ditto;
c) Southern Region (you know what I mean!) units ditto!

Correct?

By 'the book' I mean a recent Combined Volume.
 

RPM

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We do have misformed/hybrid units on Chiltern from time to time; mainly 165s. If you've got one unit out of service with a knackered south end car and another with a knackered north end car you might as well temporarily put the two good cars together and then you haven't lost quite so much peak time passenger capacity. Hybrid units are nearly always very short lived though, often only running misformed for a day or two so it wouldn't show up in enthusiasts listings/books.
 

sprinterguy

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For how long were 142074/066 running around in that hybrid formation for? I'm assuming that it can't have been for very long, as it would have caused quite a stir for me at the time and I don't recall ever seeing it in the Sunderland/Newcastle area.

I wonder if it was that hybrid formation that was the inspiration for Hornbys' erroneous numbering of their Northern Spirit liveried 142 as 142074. Hornby's typical quality control and attention to detail showing through there again...:roll:
 

6Gman

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We do have misformed/hybrid units on Chiltern from time to time; mainly 165s. If you've got one unit out of service with a knackered south end car and another with a knackered north end car you might as well temporarily put the two good cars together and then you haven't lost quite so much peak time passenger capacity. Hybrid units are nearly always very short lived though, often only running misformed for a day or two so it wouldn't show up in enthusiasts listings/books.
Many thanks RPM - just the sort of advice I was seeking.

[Anecdote alert: I have a soft spot for Chiltern - many year's ago it was known in the diagramming office as Gwyn's Private Railway, as I used to wrestle with its unit and traincrew diagrams.]
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes, that is a safe assumption, especially if you're using the 2012 Combined Volume.
So I might be struggling with my 1967 copy?

:D
 

NIMBUS

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We do have misformed/hybrid units on Chiltern from time to time; mainly 165s. If you've got one unit out of service with a knackered south end car and another with a knackered north end car you might as well temporarily put the two good cars together and then you haven't lost quite so much peak time passenger capacity. Hybrid units are nearly always very short lived though, often only running misformed for a day or two so it wouldn't show up in enthusiasts listings/books.
Despite zipping around on a daily basis, I don't remember seeing a misformed set for several years now, other than three-car sets with the centre car missing.

I do remember when the sets that went to Thames came back (007 and then 006) that, because they weren't tripcock fitted, for several months they were reformed cab-to-cab and inserted into a Chiltern tripcock-fitted two car set as a semi-permanent four-car set.
 

Eagle

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I always think a Desiro 444 attached to a 450 is an interesting sight.
Pfft. That's par for the course in Dorset :lol:

Related, 90019 and I the other day were discussing our amazement about why some people find a 170+158 exciting, despite the fact it happens all the time.
 
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SprinterMan

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LM do 153+170 quite alot, which looks strange, and I think 153+172 also.
317s and 312s are often coupled up to each other inside Ilford depot.
Adam :)

EDIT: 317s & 321s :P
 
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RyanB

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Pfft. That's par for the course in Dorset :lol:

Related, 90019 and I the other day were discussing our amazement about why some people find a 170+158 exciting, despite the fact it happens all the time.
When I worked last summer in Haymarket Yards, having never seen that Hybrid pairing before, I was surprised to see the two classes working together. Of course after a while it just becomes par for the course.
 

fgwrich

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Now here's a combination which im suprised hasnt had a mention yet - The various different Regional Railways Class 158/156 Hybrid combinations, as created in the early 1990s due to the adheasion problems caused by leaf build up on the Disk Brakes.

Technical problems - Class 158 Wiki.

Despite the attention given to passenger facilities, the phrase "garden shed engineering" has been used to describe the build and technology of the Class 158.[9] As a lightweight unit and the first members of the Sprinter family to use disc brakes, autumn leaf mulch built up on wheel rims and prevented the trains from correctly operating signalling track circuits.[10] Though later solved by installing scrubbing blocks to clean the wheels, temporary solutions were sought in October 1992, with some units split and formed into hybrid units with Class 156 coaches,[11] as the latter had tread brakes which cleaned the wheels as a by-product of their operation
There is a picture of a similar formation on this website, as well as a few listed unit combinations.

http://members.madasafish.com/~dysgraphyk/156/class156_misformed.htm
 
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LM do 153+170 quite alot, which looks strange, and I think 153+172 also.
317s and 312s are often coupled up to each other inside Ilford depot.
Adam :)
Where have these 312's come from??
;)

It's not uncommon for 315/317/321 to be coupled together around the depot.

Re misformed units, there's a few vehicle swaps that have happened over the years if this is the sort of thing you're after.
317501 and 317883 (previously numbered 317301 & 321325) spring to mind. 77000 (driving end from
501) is on 883 and has been for many many years now- and whichever driving end was taken off 883 is now on 501.
 
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