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Missed Connection due to COVID-19 measures at station

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hkstudent

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Due to COVID-19, many stations are operating one-way system, which requires closure of lifts and escalators, and as well as, requiring passengers going through a detour in station even for interchange.

What if, for example, cases like Birmingham New Street and Leeds, where connection time would tight, for passengers with heavy luggage or in wheelchairs, if they missed the connection due to escalator/lift issue (the most nearby one is closed, or having to queue for too long as some of them are shut) and detour, would they be entitled to take on next train on an Advance ticket (particularly on a split advance ticket)?
 
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Fokx

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Realistically the same rules would apply if the inbound service was late or cancelled and that the passenger would be permitted travel on the next available service if they ask the guard
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Due to COVID-19, many stations are operating one-way system, which requires closure of lifts and escalators, and as well as, requiring passengers going through a detour in station even for interchange.

What if, for example, cases like Birmingham New Street and Leeds, where connection time would tight, for passengers with heavy luggage or in wheelchairs, if they missed the connection due to escalator/lift issue (the most nearby one is closed, or having to queue for too long as some of them are shut) and detour, would they be entitled to take on next train on an Advance ticket (particularly on a split advance ticket)?
Split tickets and advances are red herrings - the situation is the same whether you miss your connection because your inbound train was late, or the interchange time isn't sufficient given current circumstances.

You're entitled to get on the next train complying with your ticket's route, TOC etc. restrictions, or if yours was the last train of the day that complies, then on any service which will enable you to complete your journey. Otherwise it'd be a case of alternative transport/accommodation. You're also entitled to delay compensation if the resultant delay is sufficiently long.

It's an interesting hypothetical, actually, in terms who you'd claim from if measures implemented at stations not controlled by a relevant train company caused a delay - e.g. if Network Rail-instigated measures meant you missed your connection (your inbound train having arrived at the station on time or even early).

No doubt you'd be stuck in a game of ping pong between the TOCs operating the inbound and outbound services. I'm fairly sure Network Rail wouldn't have any liability themselves since they're not a party to the NRCoT.
 

yorkie

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Due to COVID-19, many stations are operating one-way system, which requires closure of lifts and escalators, and as well as, requiring passengers going through a detour in station even for interchange.

What if, for example, cases like Birmingham New Street and Leeds, where connection time would tight, for passengers with heavy luggage or in wheelchairs, if they missed the connection due to escalator/lift issue (the most nearby one is closed, or having to queue for too long as some of them are shut) and detour, would they be entitled to take on next train on an Advance ticket (particularly on a split advance ticket)?
I do not think you would miss the connection if the train was on time.

But I agree that a small delay would put the connection at risk; at Leeds a delay of just two minutes could easily cause a missed connection under current arrangements if you were going from e.g. platform 14 to 17.

If your inbound train is late then you miss the connection you are undoubtedly covered.

You are covered regardless of whether the journey is made on one ticket or a combination of two or more tickets; see numerous previous threads on the subject. If you would like the assurance of assistance from a retailer, I suggest buying your tickets from an accredited split ticket provider. If the relevant TOC refuses to acknowledge your combination of tickets was valid, you can enlist the support of both the retailer as well as the Rail Ombudsman.

I know of people who have been supported by third party providers and reached good outcomes; some of those providers are represented on this forum.
 

hkstudent

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Split tickets and advances are red herrings - the situation is the same whether you miss your connection because your inbound train was late, or the interchange time isn't sufficient given current circumstances.

You're entitled to get on the next train complying with your ticket's route, TOC etc. restrictions, or if yours was the last train of the day that complies, then on any service which will enable you to complete your journey. Otherwise it'd be a case of alternative transport/accommodation. You're also entitled to delay compensation if the resultant delay is sufficiently long.

It's an interesting hypothetical, actually, in terms who you'd claim from if measures implemented at stations not controlled by a relevant train company caused a delay - e.g. if Network Rail-instigated measures meant you missed your connection (your inbound train having arrived at the station on time or even early).

No doubt you'd be stuck in a game of ping pong between the TOCs operating the inbound and outbound services. I'm fairly sure Network Rail wouldn't have any liability themselves since they're not a party to the NRCoT.
I heard of some report from my friends (not railway enthusiasts) missed the connecting train (15 mins connection), as the combination of issues of nearest lift shutdown [while carrying heavy suit case], barrier unable to read tickets (for interchange between platforms) and the one-way system at the station.

He need to wait for one hour for next XC train to Exeter. Not sure whether he may get a delay repay.
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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I heard of some report from my friends (not railway enthusiasts) missed the connecting train (15 mins connection), as the combination of issues of nearest lift shutdown [while carrying heavy suit case], barrier unable to read tickets (for interchange between platforms) and the one-way system at the station.

He need to wait for one hour for next XC train to Exeter. Not sure whether he may get a delay repay.
Well it's definitely worth putting in a claim and appealing it if it's denied.
 

tiptoptaff

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Well it's definitely worth putting in a claim and appealing it if it's denied.
But to who? As you alluded to, it may be neither TOC at fault, and its the delaying TOC you submit the claim to. XC could bat it back, rightly saying they did not cause the delay. Same with the inbound TOC.

Would it be the retailing TOC? Who've, in light of additional measures, provided an iteniary with insufficient connection time?
 

ashkeba

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But to who? As you alluded to, it may be neither TOC at fault, and its the delaying TOC you submit the claim to. XC could bat it back, rightly saying they did not cause the delay. Same with the inbound TOC.

Would it be the retailing TOC? Who've, in light of additional measures, provided an iteniary with insufficient connection time?
If inbound was GWR, they also manage the station.
 

tiptoptaff

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If inbound was GWR, they also manage the station.
The stations mentioned were New Street and Leeds, neither of which GWR run to, let alone manage. The story doesn't sound like Bristol TM, as all the platforms are within the ticket gates. Not sure about Leeds, but I know New Street have separate gates for different platforms. Bristol TM is now actually an NR station, has been for a couple of years.
 

221129

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If it is a NR station I cannot see how delay repay can be applicable as it doesn't apply to Network Rail.
 

robbeech

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I think the current situation is a bit of a red herring. When a lift gets stuck at Leeds or New Street or King’s Cross, who do they claim from then? The same must apply here. I do agree that if your first train is on time, or arrives within the minimum connection time (which still stands even if unachievable) then the claim should go in writing as a general complaint to the operator that runs the station but I am unsure how to approach it should it be a Network Rail station. The important thing to note is that regardless of who you claim from, they won’t pay out initially (so nothing much has changed in that respect)
 

ashkeba

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The stations mentioned were New Street and Leeds, neither of which GWR run to, let alone manage. The story doesn't sound like Bristol TM, as all the platforms are within the ticket gates. Not sure about Leeds, but I know New Street have separate gates for different platforms. Bristol TM is now actually an NR station, has been for a couple of years.
The station mentioned in the exampled I replied to was Exeter.
 

WesternLancer

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Logic - which would probably not apply - is that the customer goes to a TOC for a claim, if the reason fore the delay is a NR lift not operating then the TOC should then reclaim off NR as the TOC pays NR for the use of the station facilities as it weer on behalf of their passengers. If NR then inconvenience a TOC's customers then the financial incentive regime should work to minimise NR's incentive to leave the lift broken /let it break down.

Now I doubt D-R processing staff will always see it that way, but that is how it should work in my view. Juts as if a set of NR points fails and delays the train, the D-R claim would go into the TOC, who would not reject it on the basis it was not their fault, but similarly would be claiming delay compensation from NR due to failed points - I assume.

To my mind the logic is the same.

If COVID measures have slowed down the ability to change how tricky would it be to extend all connection times in journey planners to account for this? There has been plenty of time since the start of the lock down to have implemented such measures if needed I would think.
 

hkstudent

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Logic - which would probably not apply - is that the customer goes to a TOC for a claim, if the reason fore the delay is a NR lift not operating then the TOC should then reclaim off NR as the TOC pays NR for the use of the station facilities as it weer on behalf of their passengers. If NR then inconvenience a TOC's customers then the financial incentive regime should work to minimise NR's incentive to leave the lift broken /let it break down.

Now I doubt D-R processing staff will always see it that way, but that is how it should work in my view. Juts as if a set of NR points fails and delays the train, the D-R claim would go into the TOC, who would not reject it on the basis it was not their fault, but similarly would be claiming delay compensation from NR due to failed points - I assume.

To my mind the logic is the same.

If COVID measures have slowed down the ability to change how tricky would it be to extend all connection times in journey planners to account for this? There has been plenty of time since the start of the lock down to have implemented such measures if needed I would think.
Yeah, the logic sounds, but sadly not applying to the industry in some cases.
Do you think in this kind of situation, should the claim go to the first or second leg TOC?
 

Haywain

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The stations mentioned were New Street and Leeds, neither of which GWR run to, let alone manage. The story doesn't sound like Bristol TM, as all the platforms are within the ticket gates. Not sure about Leeds, but I know New Street have separate gates for different platforms. Bristol TM is now actually an NR station, has been for a couple of years.
All of the platforms as Leeds are within the ticket gates. However, that does not mean there is any certainty about where these problems occurred.
 

tiptoptaff

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All of the platforms as Leeds are within the ticket gates. However, that does not mean there is any certainty about where these problems occurred.
Thanks - I guessed at Birmingham as it was stated they needed tickets to change platform
 

ashkeba

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My bold...

And therefore it is entirely possible it occured at Birmingham NS or Leeds
Sorry, I read that as waiting at Exeter for the next XC train to arrive there. I see now it could be read differently.

Of course, XC stop mostly at stations run by operators and NR stations have the longest interconnect time anyway, so this must rarely occur.
 

Starmill

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In a similar vein, I asked Northern whether tickets would automatically be honoured on the following Northern service if there were standing passengers on a train meaning that there's no socially-distanced capacity available. The response was that 'you will be able to get permission to travel on the next train by asking the guard' which I found very confusing. Does that mean that the policy is to refuse travel unless the guard agrees? Missing a connection because of the one way system in a station seems like a similar issue.

If that happened to me I probably wouldn't ask for compensation, but I would have the expectation of automatic entitlement to use the ticket, even if it were an Off Peak ticket being used at a restricted time.
 

robbeech

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If COVID measures have slowed down the ability to change how tricky would it be to extend all connection times in journey planners to account for this? There has been plenty of time since the start of the lock down to have implemented such measures if needed I would think.
I would assume almost impossible now, and even less possible as time passes and service levels return to a normal timetable. Timetables are created with minimum connection times taken into account. Extend some by even just 1 minute and you can extend itineraries by hours or even remove journey possibilities altogether particularly towards the end of the day. I can personally think of examples where an increase of 1 and certainly 2 minutes would mean my last train home from some cities would become 1930 instead of 2130 and there will be lots of others. It all fits tightly into place, sometimes the minimum connection times are kept arguably short to save on horrendous time table issues. Slough @ 3 minutes, Doncaster @ 8 now platform 0 is in use is a lesser but still notable example if you had luggage and needed to use lifts.
 

robbeech

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In a similar vein, I asked Northern whether tickets would automatically be honoured on the following Northern service if there were standing passengers on a train meaning that there's no socially-distanced capacity available. The response was that 'you will be able to get permission to travel on the next train by asking the guard' which I found very confusing. Does that mean that the policy is to refuse travel unless the guard agrees? Missing a connection because of the one way system in a station seems like a similar issue.
This to me sounds very much like a “we don’t know and dare not make a guess at this as they’re keeping an eye on us, so we will pass responsibility on”. I’m not suggesting it’s a bad decision on their part if this is the case but it, unsurprisingly does nothing to help the passenger and provides little confidence in getting home. Maybe the intention is to provide little confidence and lots of ambiguity to minimise the risk the passengers will take. It would certainly make for a more efficient railway and the only detriment is to the passenger’s day being cut short / plans altered.
 

Starmill

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This to me sounds very much like a “we don’t know and dare not make a guess at this as they’re keeping an eye on us, so we will pass responsibility on”. I’m not suggesting it’s a bad decision on their part if this is the case but it, unsurprisingly does nothing to help the passenger and provides little confidence in getting home. Maybe the intention is to provide little confidence and lots of ambiguity to minimise the risk the passengers will take. It would certainly make for a more efficient railway and the only detriment is to the passenger’s day being cut short / plans altered.
Yes I agree. It does seem likely that they didn't know / Northern haven't actually considered the matter. Perhaps its worthy of further follow-up. You're quite right about it being a matter of confidence.
 

SteveM70

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Yes I agree. It does seem likely that they didn't know / Northern haven't actually considered the matter. Perhaps its worthy of further follow-up. You're quite right about it being a matter of confidence.

I suspect it is as you describe, but it could be that they don’t want to give the impression by saying yes that it then guarantees the customer getting on the next train, and if that then arrived at full (capacity) there’d be an expectation that someone would be turfed to make a space

But on the whole, far more likely to be Northern not having considered it:D
 

Bayum

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I had a similar concern at Kings Cross last week. Took me an extra fifteen minutes to get to the platforms with walking halfway round and back on itself. I was considering asking whether there were any ‘shortcuts’ for disabled passengers, but I really just wanted to get the train.
 

Hadders

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I had a similar concern at Kings Cross last week. Took me an extra fifteen minutes to get to the platforms with walking halfway round and back on itself. I was considering asking whether there were any ‘shortcuts’ for disabled passengers, but I really just wanted to get the train.

I 'experienced' the new one way system at Kings Cross earlier today. It's ridiculous.
 
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