missed connection due to late runnig Eurostar.query

[dggar]

I am travelling from Bruxelles to STP on train EST 9141 on Saturday 29th Aug(BH weekend)
It is due to arrive at 16:05.

I need to travel on to Manchester and the train choices shown on National Rail journey planner are:-

16:58 depart STP via Sheffield arrive MAN 20.02 journey time 3hr.04 min.

17:13 dept EUS, arrive MAN 20:07 Journey time 2hr 54min
17:39 dept EUS, arrive MAN 20:27 Journey time 2hr 48min

17:58 depart STP via Sheffield arrive MAN 21.02 journey time 3hr.04 min.

18:05 dept EUS, arrive MAN 21:27 Journey time 3hr 02min.

Advance fares are available for the St Pancras departures, but only off peak are showing for the Euston departures.

If I buy an advance ticket for the 16:58 (Not a CIV ticket) and the Eurostar train is delayed are the TOCs duty bound to allow travel on the next available train.

Advance fares( with rail card discount) from STP for the 16:58 are £17.80 std class, £25.40 1st class.

Off Peak fares from EUS are £53.

A CIV ticket is shown as £26.95

 

[34D]

Where are you looking online? Call Eurostar domestic sales on 01233 617913.

With a normal London terminals ticket there is no protection.

 

[blackfive460]

With a normal London terminals ticket there is no protection.

Actually, there is...

From the section in the Manual regarding advance tickets:

Q22 - Can a passenger travel on any trains other than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A: The following principles apply.

1). Start of the Journey. It is the passenger’s responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the first train. If they miss it due to problems parking, taxi not turning up etc, they must buy a new ticket;

2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held. Examples are:

<Large snip>

Combination of Eurostar tickets into the UK and then either advance purchase tickets from London Terminals or “London Intnl CIV” or “Lndon Eurostar CIV”.

<Another large snip>

In all cases, as a missed connection could be quite distant from your part of the country, where verified, please clearly endorse the ticket for colleagues ‘down the line’. Eurostar have also agreed to do this.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Indeed, you need a CIV ticket for later travel to be honoured, officially, anything else is relying on goodwill.

 

[dggar]

Indeed, you need a CIV ticket for later travel to be honoured, officially, anything else is relying on goodwill.

I'm puzzled by your answer,

Is the Manual a document by which a TOC and its employees are bound or is it a document that is advisory and a TOC and its employees can choose to ignore?

 

[yorkie]

I'm puzzled by your answer,

Is the Manual a document by which a TOC and its employees are bound or is it a document that is advisory and a TOC and its employees can choose to ignore?

The contract isn't determined by what the internal KnowledgeBase (iKB, formerly known as The Manual) says, and iKB cannot ever restrict our rights. However it can give us more rights. Train Companies can also be more lenient than as stated in The Manual.

 

[dggar]

The contract isn't determined by what the internal KnowledgeBase (iKB, formerly known as The Manual) says, and iKB cannot ever restrict our rights. However it can give us more rights. Train Companies can also be more lenient than as stated in The Manual.

So are you saying the TOC has to abide but what is stated in Q22 as quoted by blackfive460.

The answer given by hairyhandedfool appears to contradict what
blackfive460 is saying,
or is there something very subtle that I'm missing here.

 

[yorkie]

If a TOC did not adhere to what is quoted by blackfive460, then I'd expect Transport Focus to intervene on your behalf, and be successful.

I'd also have one or two contacts, who have been very helpful in the past, who might be prepared to help too.

 

[gordonthemoron]

you may aswell call eurostar domestic ticket sales as their prices may be cheaper

 

[maniacmartin]

The contract isn't determined by what the internal KnowledgeBase (iKB, formerly known as The Manual) says, and iKB cannot ever restrict our rights. However it can give us more rights. Train Companies can also be more lenient than as stated in The Manual.

It is not part of the contract with the customer at all. It is an inside industry document detailing the internal policy of the TOCs.

Whilst one would expect TOC staff to follow it, I am not convinced that there is any redress if they don't

 

[34D]

If the question were reversed, so a Manchester to London Terminals ticket, eurostar to Brussels, and Thalys onwards, potentially the entitlement to HOTNAT would be diminished by the domestic uk ticket not being CIV?

Hop On The Next Available Train - a railteam thing

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you don't have CIV then Eurostar are under no obligation to carry you. If you do have CIV then they are.

Whether they will or won't carry you in practice is irrelevant.

As others have said, the best thing is to call Eurostar sales and buy the ticket from them. They're usually cheaper than buying a separate AP ticket- you can buy CIV AP tickets

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It is not part of the contract with the customer at all. It is an inside industry document detailing the internal policy of the TOCs.

Whilst one would expect TOC staff to follow it, I am not convinced that there is any redress if they don't

Exactly!
The wording quoted from the Manual should be enough to make that clear: it is a request to staff "please clearly endorse the ticket". It is silent on the contract between the operators and the passenger.

And as we often see on here, when a passenger is found to be travelling without a valid ticket, there is a great urge for the passenger to try to find fault with the railway company (as if such a fault makes the passenger's failure dissapear). But the facts of the ticket's validity remain crucial, and we can see that an incoming delay on a separate booking with Eurostar places no contractural duty to convey a passenger holding an Advance ticket (for a service which has already departed) by a later service. It is a matter of policy (the Manual), and of custom and practice, that such passengers may be carried on a later service - it is not a Term of any contract. This difference may appear to be subtle, but becomes significant when there is a serious challenge to liabilities. The sort of challenge which arises when a customer is stranded or incurs an injury.

 

[MrJamesBrown]

Exactly!
The wording quoted from the Manual should be enough to make that clear: it is a request to staff "please clearly endorse the ticket". It is silent on the contract between the operators and the passenger.

And as we often see on here, when a passenger is found to be travelling without a valid ticket, there is a great urge for the passenger to try to find fault with the railway company (as if such a fault makes the passenger's failure dissapear). But the facts of the ticket's validity remain crucial, and we can see that an incoming delay on a separate booking with Eurostar places no contractural duty to convey a passenger holding an Advance ticket (for a service which has already departed) by a later service. It is a matter of policy (the Manual), and of custom and practice, that such passengers may be carried on a later service - it is not a Term of any contract. This difference may appear to be subtle, but becomes significant when there is a serious challenge to liabilities. The sort of challenge which arises when a customer is stranded or incurs an injury.

Slightly different question, however if you hold a CIV ticket and the UK train is delayed so the last Eurostar of the night is missed, what happens then?

 

[Haywain]

Slightly different question, however if you hold a CIV ticket and the UK train is delayed so the last Eurostar of the night is missed, what happens then?

In that situation the TOC is likely to assist in making alternative arrangements. This may be being provided with a hotel, but for journeys closer to London may be by allowing travel to home and back to London the following day at no additional charge.

 

[cool110]

Slightly different question, however if you hold a CIV ticket and the UK train is delayed so the last Eurostar of the night is missed, what happens then?

The CIV rules require accommodation to be provided along with a means of notifying anyone expecting them (presumably a short phone call).

Article 32
Liability in case of cancellation, late running of trains or missed connections
§ 1 The carrier shall be liable to the passenger for loss or damage resulting from the fact that, by reason of cancellation, the late running of a train or a missed connection, his journey cannot be continued the same day, or that a continuation of the journey the same day could not reasonably be required because of given circumstances. The damages shall comprise the reasonable costs of accommodation as well as the reasonable costs occasioned by having to notify persons expecting the passenger.

 

[dggar]

I spoke today with a very pleasant and helpful chap, called Bob, at Eurostar domestic sales.

I now have CIV tickets booked for the journey travelling via Sheffield and at a price slightly cheaper than displayed for the journey on the National Rail journey planner.

Thanks to everyone for their advice.

 

[34D]

I spoke today with a very pleasant and helpful chap, called Bob, at Eurostar domestic sales.

Yes! The nicest part of booking a eurostar journey is talking to Bob. Such a lovely fellow

 

[thedbdiboy]

If you don't have CIV then Eurostar are under no obligation to carry you. If you do have CIV then they are.

Whether they will or won't carry you in practice is irrelevant.

Not quite true. The EU Passenger Rights Regulations now create the same rights to protected connections on international journeys when separate tickets are booked as part of a through journey even if the tickets are not endorsed CIV.

The actual interpretation is still subject to discussion and debate, and ultimately only a legal challenge would provide clear guidance, but the Knowledgebase entry reflects GB agreed practice which is to treat the connection the same way REGARDLESS of whether the ticket is marked CIV, if it has been purchased and is being used as part of an international journey.

So to answer the OP's original question, if his Eurostar train was late he would have been permitted to travel on a later service in any case, although it is obviously beneficial that he's managed to buy a cheaper CIV onward ticket.