Missed last connection at Leeds due to delay

[johntea]

Just on the 21:46 Harrogate to Leeds, which actually departed at 22:01 and is travelling at a reduced speed even then due to a fault...

Which means I’m going to miss the 22:37 Leeds to Sheffield (Castleford), just to throw a spanner in the works I travel using a Zone 1-6 WYMetro pass which annoyingly doesn’t cover bus travel in West/North Yorkshire at all, otherwise I would just jump on the 23:15 bus from Leeds!

Can I seek onwards transport at Leeds station or do I need to stick my hand in my pocket for a bus/taxi and send the bill off to Northern (not ideal as it’ll probably take several months to see a refund!)

 

[yorksrob]

If it was an official connection, I'd ask in the station managers office in Leeds as they may arrange a taxi.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just on the 21:46 Harrogate to Leeds, which actually departed at 22:01 and is travelling at a reduced speed even then due to a fault...

Which means I’m going to miss the 22:37 Leeds to Sheffield (Castleford), just to throw a spanner in the works I travel using a Zone 1-6 WYMetro pass which annoyingly doesn’t cover bus travel in West/North Yorkshire at all, otherwise I would just jump on the 23:15 bus from Leeds!

Can I seek onwards transport at Leeds station or do I need to stick my hand in my pocket for a bus/taxi and send the bill off to Northern (not ideal as it’ll probably take several months to see a refund!)

As long as your connection respected minimum connection times (these are shown unofficially by BRTimes.com), yes, you are entitled to onward transport or overnight accommodation. Any Train Company must provide either "where it reasonably can". If they fail to do so despite reasonably being able to (and you make reasonable efforts to ask all available Train Companies to arrange transport or accommodation), I would have thought you would have a clear cut case to take them to Court.

Try the Northern Twitter feed, try phoning them too - anything you can think of to try and get them to arrange and pay for it rather than waiting in the queue for eventual reimbursement.

 

[robbeech]

I’m not sure on the full terms and conditions with the type of ticket you have. As Yorksrob says it’s worth asking at Leeds.

 

[Starmill]

You should be fine getting a taxi under these circumstances - I have had success at Leeds before. It may be a little tricky to find the right people to speak to but I would think you would get there eventually.

 

[johntea]

Thanks, will start by asking at the ticket office as I have no idea where the station manager is at Leeds!

I asked the guard who tried to help but could only offer to ask someone at Leeds

 

[yorksrob]

Thanks, will start by asking at the ticket office as I have no idea where the station manager is at Leeds!

I asked the guard who tried to help but could only offer to ask someone at Leeds

There's a station office behind the buffers of the terminal platforms (where most Harrogate trains come in). Worth popping your head in there and asking.

 

[johntea]

Thanks, got advised to ask for the supervisor so just asked at the barriers, a very nice member of staff went to sort it out with the supervisor so all sorted

 

[johntea]

In a taxi now, although they didn’t seem too keen when I showed my WYMetro pass so it would be interesting to know what the official policy is for future (although I can’t see it being any different from a normal rail ticket in such circumstances!)

 

[bb21]

If you have a valid ticket, you have a valid ticket, end of story.

 

[Smidster]

I think you were saved by it being a zone 1-6

Had it been me with my zone 1-4 returning from say Wakefield I am sure the policy would be "multi-modal" ticket so tough.

 

[Bantamzen]

If you have a valid ticket, you have a valid ticket, end of story.

I think you were saved by it being a zone 1-6

Had it been me with my zone 1-4 returning from say Wakefield I am sure the policy would be "multi-modal" ticket so tough.

Smidster is right, had it been a West Yorkshire only MCard they would not have been obliged to make any alternative arrangements, as per the MCard T&Cs:

a) MCard, Metro and bus and train operators will make every reasonable effort to maintain services, but will not be liable for any loss, expense, claim damage, injury or inconvenience that passengers may sustain arising directly or indirectly from failure to operate a particular service. Subject to the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.

https://m-card.co.uk/terms-of-use/mcard-general-terms-and-conditions/

So its really down to the discretion of the TOC, otherwise people with MCards could in theory just rock up after a night in Leeds, look for any delayed service in the region and ask for a taxi home.

 

[robbeech]

Surely being on a train with a valid ticket for that train means the TOC has the same responsibility.
Claiming Delay Repay is a different matter, you’re likely not entitled to it but the TOC getting you home I would suggest is necessary regardless of the ticket or tickets (controversial) you hold IF your initial delay is caused by them.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Smidster is right, had it been a West Yorkshire only MCard they would not have been obliged to make any alternative arrangements, as per the MCard T&Cs:



https://m-card.co.uk/terms-of-use/mcard-general-terms-and-conditions/

So its really down to the discretion of the TOC, otherwise people with MCards could in theory just rock up after a night in Leeds, look for any delayed service in the region and ask for a taxi home.

It isn't possible for them to exclude liability for failing to provide the service with reasonable care and skill. It's appalling that they try and mislead those few who even think of reading the T&Cs.

 

[bb21]

Smidster is right, had it been a West Yorkshire only MCard they would not have been obliged to make any alternative arrangements, as per the MCard T&Cs:



https://m-card.co.uk/terms-of-use/mcard-general-terms-and-conditions/

So its really down to the discretion of the TOC, otherwise people with MCards could in theory just rock up after a night in Leeds, look for any delayed service in the region and ask for a taxi home.

The purchase of a valid ticket for travel on National Rail services is still subject to the NRCoC.

The condition you quoted does not allow the customer to be stranded either.

That is not even wading into the shades of grey brought about by the new consumer legislation.

 

[Bantamzen]

The purchase of a valid ticket for travel on National Rail services is still subject to the NRCoC.

The condition you quoted does not allow the customer to be stranded either.

That is not even wading into the shades of grey brought about by the new consumer legislation.

Do you have definitive links to all this? I only ask because MCards are not a TOC product, merely accepted by them, and as such it is important to make sure that any advice is accurate. In the case of the OP there might well have been good cause to allow for provision of a taxi forward as the Zone 1-6 card is valid only on trains, whereas any card covering Zones 1-5 are valid on trains and bus. And as the OP points out, had they been travelling on such there would have been an alternative available.

But moreover how does one prove the intent to travel on a season ticket such as this? As I mentioned earlier what is to stop someone seeing a delay like this and making false representation to station staff simply to get a taxi to their destination? With a point to point ticket it is clear what the TOC is obliged to deliver, with a regional pass such as this it is not.

 

[robbeech]

But moreover how does one prove the intent to travel on a season ticket such as this? As I mentioned earlier what is to stop someone seeing a delay like this and making false representation to station staff simply to get a taxi to their destination? With a point to point ticket it is clear what the TOC is obliged to deliver, with a regional pass such as this it is not.

The same way they do with an ordinary season ticket when you are delayed on a journey that is not both or indeed either point on the ticket. They can’t. They just pay out unless they can prove there is fraud. Or at worse try to obtain more evidence.

 

[Bantamzen]

The same way they do with an ordinary season ticket when you are delayed on a journey that is not both or indeed either point on the ticket. They can’t. They just pay out unless they can prove there is fraud. Or at worse try to obtain more evidence.

But this isn't a TOC season ticket, it is a PTE one accepted by TOCs. And it is also multi-modal, so if a TOC would be liable to organise taxis as a result of delays, would bus companies also be so? And if not, why not?

 

[bb21]

You don't need to prove anything. Yes, if the ticket is multi-modal and there is an alternative option available at no extra cost to the customer, which need not necessarily be a taxi, then there is no obligation to provide a taxi. This is in line with the conditions of travel.

If there were no other option available, the railway would be obliged to offer an alternative if they reasonably could in line with the conditions of travel. The fact that the ticket is a local authority product does not allow the customer to be stranded through no fault of their own.

Bus companies are not subject to the railway's conditions of travel.

 

[Bantamzen]

You don't need to prove anything. Yes, if the ticket is multi-modal and there is an alternative option available at no extra cost to the customer, which need not necessarily be a taxi, then there is no obligation to provide a taxi. This is in line with the conditions of travel.

If there were no other option available, the railway would be obliged to offer an alternative if they reasonably could in line with the conditions of travel. The fact that the ticket is a local authority product does not allow the customer to be stranded through no fault of their own.

Bus companies are not subject to the railway's conditions of travel.

But are providers of third party tickets such as MCards subject to the same TOCs?

 

[robbeech]

It’s not the provider of the MCard that has caused the delay. It is the TOC. Therefore it is THEIR responsibility to get you home.

 

[Bantamzen]

It’s not the provider of the MCard that has caused the delay. It is the TOC. Therefore it is THEIR responsibility to get you home.

Well that is not what is clearly stated in the TOCs of the MCard as quoted further up the thread.

 

[robbeech]

It is good to see the OP was given the taxi to their destination though using this ticket.

 

[johntea]

With regards to somebody trying it on, I would be very surprised if they could actually be bothered to go through all the hassle of doing so! I've only had to use the taxi option a handful of times over the years, and it always seems quite difficult to firstly hunt the supervisor of the relevant TOC down, they then have to book a taxi for you and then you have to wait for said taxi to actually turn up, instead of getting home for 11 last night it was closer to midnight!

A month or so from now I would have been fine with the extra 23:00 and 23:16 services from Leeds!

 

[Bantamzen]

With regards to somebody trying it on, I would be very surprised if they could actually be bothered to go through all the hassle of doing so! I've only had to use the taxi option a handful of times over the years, and it always seems quite difficult to firstly hunt the supervisor of the relevant TOC down, they then have to book a taxi for you and then you have to wait for said taxi to actually turn up, instead of getting home for 11 last night it was closer to midnight!

A month or so from now I would have been fine with the extra 23:00 and 23:16 services from Leeds!

Firstly I am glad you were able to sort something out, I know what it is like to find yourself stranded at somewhere like Leeds. Back in 2007 I was on my commute home to South Elmsall where I then lived during the evening peak. Unfortunately this particular evening was at the start of the dreadful floods that hit a lot of the area and on arrival at Leeds (commuting from Bradford) I was greeted with the ensuing chaos as most trains heading south were cancelled. So I sought out a member of Northern staff for advice, and they informed me that there would be no trains to South Elmsall and that as a Metrocard holder it would be unlikely that alternative transport could be arranged, as bus companies were unable to be booked due to the weather and taxi options were only be used for passengers with no other means of getting home. And as I had a multi-modal ticket, they advised that I head for the bus station to get a bus home.

So this is what I did, waited with hundreds of other people for a 110, which as it turned out would be one of the last to run, and head into Wakefield. However once I got there all buses south had also stopped running, and so I had no option but to convince a taxi driver that I could help navigate a route home, which by a very convoluted route I did. But in total it took over 6 hours from work to home & left me £45 lighter, which is why I now always have a plan B and the moment things appear to be going wrong I am exploring other options. Its the best advice I can give anyone.

As for people trying it on, I'm afraid I disagree. There will always be people that would do so, even if they had to hunt the supervisor down. Some people will do almost anything to get something for free, and some will even just do things like that because they can. Thats just how some people are sadly.

 

[yorkie]

.... as a Metrocard holder it would be unlikely that alternative transport could be arranged, as bus companies were unable to be booked due to the weather and taxi options were only be used for passengers with no other means of getting home. And as I had a multi-modal ticket, they advised that I head for the bus station to get a bus home....

A quite different circumstance to the OP's.

You had a ticket valid for the bus (the OP didn't). There were severe weather conditions. The train company was in a situation of ordering as many taxis as possible, and prioritised those for whom they reasonably believed at the time had no alternative over those who they reasonably believed did have an alternative.

Other posters are correct; Northern did have a duty to provide transport at no additional cost to johntea and I am glad they did so without quibble.

 

[Bantamzen]

A quite different circumstance to the OP's.

You had a ticket valid for the bus (the OP didn't). There were severe weather conditions. The train company was in a situation of ordering as many taxis as possible, and prioritised those for whom they reasonably believed at the time had no alternative over those who they reasonably believed did have an alternative.

Other posters are correct; Northern did have a duty to provide transport at no additional cost to johntea and I am glad they did so without quibble.

I didn't say the circumstances were the same, just giving an example of when a multi-model ticket, such as a Zone 1-5 Metrocard, is held that the TOC is not liable for getting a passenger home.

 

[yorkie]

I didn't say the circumstances were the same, just giving an example of when a multi-model ticket, such as a Zone 1-5 Metrocard, is held that the TOC is not liable for getting a passenger home.

Northern were liable for making arrangements to get the OP to Castleford so I don't see what the relevance of your circumstances were to this case, which I hope you agree was correctly handled.

 

[robbeech]

I didn't say the circumstances were the same, just giving an example of when a multi-model ticket, such as a Zone 1-5 Metrocard, is held that the TOC is not liable for getting a passenger home.

Not even if the last train is after the last bus?

 

[Bantamzen]

Northern were liable for making arrangements to get the OP to Castleford so I don't see what the relevance of your circumstances were to this case, which I hope you agree was correctly handled.

If you read my post again you will see that I start it by saying I was glad the OP got it sorted. I was mearly showing emphathy towards them, whilst citing an example of finding oneself stuck without a train. I realise that my circumstances were different, but as another poster had mused about what would happen with a Zone 1-5 pass I brought it in as an example.