Missed last connection at Leeds due to delay

[Bantamzen]

Not even if the last train is after the last bus?

Not as far as the TOCs say. A Zone 1-6 or 1-7 is a route specific pass, so you can see why Northern agreed to a taxi as this pass can only be used on their services. A 1-5 however is an all routes, bus and train pass, which means the holder could have started their journey from anywhere within West Yorkshire and not be able to verify that their journey has been rendered impossible by a delayed train.

 

[robbeech]

A 1-5 however is an all routes, bus and train pass, which means the holder could have started their journey from anywhere within West Yorkshire and not be able to verify that their journey has been rendered impossible by a delayed train.

But this is the same as having an ALR for example. You don’t have to prove where you’ve come from or indeed prove where you’re going to (though it can help) as the ticket allows you anywhere. You could just as easily make up a journey with one of those so I don’t see how it’s different in this case.

 

[tgrb]

Slightly OT, but if you had an ALR, how would any given TOC calculate your delay compensation?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Slightly OT, but if you had an ALR, how would any given TOC calculate your delay compensation?

Much like a Rover or a Ranger, an assumed number of journeys is used, similarly to a season ticket. However, each TOC seems to use a different assumed number of journeys. It's rare to get less compensation than is fair

 

[Bantamzen]

But this is the same as having an ALR for example. You don’t have to prove where you’ve come from or indeed prove where you’re going to (though it can help) as the ticket allows you anywhere. You could just as easily make up a journey with one of those so I don’t see how it’s different in this case.

I've haven't ever used an ALR, so couldn't comment on the T&Cs. But they are a National Rail product, is that right? If so then they may well have different conditions as the Mcard is a WY Metro product.

 

[marcouk2]

I've haven't ever used an ALR, so couldn't comment on the T&Cs. But they are a National Rail product, is that right? If so then they may well have different conditions as the Mcard is a WY Metro product.

The M Card T&C's state:

Holders of MetroCard are carried on services subject to Metro's Conditions of Use and the Conditions of Carriage of the operator in question, i.e. the relevant bus company or train operator.

MCard is not part of the Delay Repay scheme as it is a multi-modal zonal product allowing the holder to travel on any bus and train*. The Delay Repay scheme applies to rail operator only tickets. Refunds are not made for a withdrawal or interruption of bus or rail services but operators may consider claims on their merits as part of their Passenger's Charter commitment. *not football/concert specials.

So says no delay repay but nothing about not providing alternative means of transportation to your destination.

Both the NRCoT & Northern's Customer Charter Promise just refer to 'valid' tickets when talking about disruption preventing onwards trains travel. If the M-Card is valid for train travel then it should be acceptable to honour the NRCoT for protection in that situation.

Also I've had no issues getting delay repay when travelling on a WYMetro Train & Bus Dayrover in the past from Northern.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not as far as the TOCs say. A Zone 1-6 or 1-7 is a route specific pass, so you can see why Northern agreed to a taxi as this pass can only be used on their services. A 1-5 however is an all routes, bus and train pass, which means the holder could have started their journey from anywhere within West Yorkshire and not be able to verify that their journey has been rendered impossible by a delayed train.

Could you clarify exactly what you mean by this? What is a "route specific" pass? The Rail Zone 6/7 includes Zone 1 - 5 so how can it be "route specific"? It's an extension of a 1 -5 to a specific station (such as Skipton). It seems to me that this is no different to a London Travelcard which might be issued from a specific station but can be used on any operator within the relevant zones?

 

[marcouk2]

Could you clarify exactly what you mean by this? What is a "route specific" pass? The Rail Zone 6/7 includes Zone 1 - 5 so how can it be "route specific"? It's an extension of a 1 -5 to a specific station (such as Skipton). It seems to me that this is no different to a London Travelcard which might be issued from a specific station but can be used on any operator within the relevant zones?

Possibly referring to the fact that the Zone 6/7 tickets cover train travel only & not buses. But it doesn't make a difference anyway, if you can use it on rail travel then surely it must be a valid ticket in these circumstances.

 

[AlterEgo]

Possibly referring to the fact that the Zone 6/7 tickets cover train travel only & not buses. But it doesn't make a difference anyway, if you can use it on rail travel then surely it must be a valid ticket in these circumstances.

I agree. A number of point to point rail tickets allow or even mandate travel on buses or other forms of transport, so I don’t see the difference in principle.

 

[Starmill]

I'm not convinced it is legally sound for the terms and conditions of a ticket to exclude liability for delay compensation under it. This would place the terms in direct contravention with the NRCoT, which the tickets state on them that they are issued subject to, and to the passengers charter of the train company in question, which is referred to by NRCoT. Why does the fact it's a multi-modal ticket have anything to do with the right to compensation?

What is even worse is that Northern claim that they are not required to pay compensation to Railpass ticket holders in Merseyside. A Railpass is not a Mulit-Modal ticket. I don't know if they turn down valid claims from Z1-6/7 Mcard holders or not.

It would be like GTR saying to someone with a Travelcard that they have excluded their liability to pay any compensation for that, regardless of the lenght of delay.

 

[johntea]

b) MCard is not part of the Delay Repay scheme as it is a multi-modal zonal product allowing the holder to travel on any bus and train*. The Delay Repay scheme applies to rail operator only tickets. Refunds are not made for a withdrawal or interruption of bus or rail services but operators may consider claims on their merits as part of their Passenger's Charter commitment. *not football/concert specials

That's an interesting one in terms of the Zone 1-6 product then, almost suggesting I could claim Delay Repay as it is a rail-only product. I might stick in a claim to Northern tomorrow and see what they come back with, can't hurt to try!

 

[185143]

I'm not convinced it is legally sound for the terms and conditions of a ticket to exclude liability for delay compensation under it. This would place the terms in direct contravention with the NRCoT, which the tickets state on them that they are issued subject to, and to the passengers charter of the train company in question, which is referred to by NRCoT. Why does the fact it's a multi-modal ticket have anything to do with the right to compensation?

What is even worse is that Northern claim that they are not required to pay compensation to Railpass ticket holders in Merseyside. A Railpass is not a Mulit-Modal ticket. I don't know if they turn down valid claims from Z1-6/7 Mcard holders or not.

It would be like GTR saying to someone with a Travelcard that they have excluded their liability to pay any compensation for that, regardless of the lenght of delay.

I pointed out once that Railpasses were not multi modal (in a post detailing FAQs on a strike day). They agreed, passed it on and the next post I saw did not include Railpasses as 'PTE Products'. Every post after that strike, however, did.

Would you put it past GTR to tell a travelcard holder 'you should have got the bus/tram/tube'...

 

[Bantamzen]

Could you clarify exactly what you mean by this? What is a "route specific" pass? The Rail Zone 6/7 includes Zone 1 - 5 so how can it be "route specific"? It's an extension of a 1 -5 to a specific station (such as Skipton). It seems to me that this is no different to a London Travelcard which might be issued from a specific station but can be used on any operator within the relevant zones?

Possibly referring to the fact that the Zone 6/7 tickets cover train travel only & not buses. But it doesn't make a difference anyway, if you can use it on rail travel then surely it must be a valid ticket in these circumstances.

Sorry, I didn't word that too well. What I meant to say that the Zones 1-6 / 1-7 are rail only, Zones 1-5 plus the additional one specified Metro products designed specifically for people commuting from Harrogate & Skipton into or out of West Yorkshire. They are not the same as the Zones 1-5 (and below) which are train & bus, valid for all specified rail zones, & fully transferable passes. The T&Cs for these changed quite a bit once they become MCards, issued on smartcards, so I honestly cannot remember what they were previously. But I would be very surprised indeed if a holder could request a taxi from a TOC in the circumstances as discussed here. I would have thought the following would give the TOCs the room to refuse on the grounds that it is a multi-modal ticket.

a) MCard, Metro and bus and train operators will make every reasonable effort to maintain services, but will not be liable for any loss, expense, claim damage, injury or inconvenience that passengers may sustain arising directly or indirectly from failure to operate a particular service. Subject to the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977

https://m-card.co.uk/terms-of-use/mcard-general-terms-and-conditions/

I for one would not be banking on that if I found myself in similar circumstances to the OP, I would always have a back up plan (usually enough cash on me to get a taxi if all else fails). That's not to say that a supervisor of a TOC may not order a taxi, and in the case of the OP it was more appropriate as they held a rail only pass which also had the advantage of being for the route where the delay was incurred. But as a rule of thumb I wouldn't expect it to be an automatic right, more to the discretion of the TOC. I did try to find the T&Cs for the Zones 1-6 pass, but WY Metro seem to have server issues this morning so many pages aren't loading.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Sorry, I didn't word that too well. What I meant to say that the Zones 1-6 / 1-7 are rail only, Zones 1-5 plus the additional one specified Metro products designed specifically for people commuting from Harrogate & Skipton into or out of West Yorkshire. They are not the same as the Zones 1-5 (and below) which are train & bus, valid for all specified rail zones, & fully transferable passes. The T&Cs for these changed quite a bit once they become MCards, issued on smartcards, so I honestly cannot remember what they were previously. But I would be very surprised indeed if a holder could request a taxi from a TOC in the circumstances as discussed here. I would have thought the following would give the TOCs the room to refuse on the grounds that it is a multi-modal ticket.



https://m-card.co.uk/terms-of-use/mcard-general-terms-and-conditions/

I for one would not be banking on that if I found myself in similar circumstances to the OP, I would always have a back up plan (usually enough cash on me to get a taxi if all else fails). That's not to say that a supervisor of a TOC may not order a taxi, and in the case of the OP it was more appropriate as they held a rail only pass which also had the advantage of being for the route where the delay was incurred. But as a rule of thumb I wouldn't expect it to be an automatic right, more to the discretion of the TOC. I did try to find the T&Cs for the Zones 1-6 pass, but WY Metro seem to have server issues this morning so many pages aren't loading.

If a delay qualified under the NRCoT minima, a passenger who is nevertheless refused compensation might have a reasonable case to take the TOC to Court. Of course, they would have a duty to reasonably mitigate the delay by using any alternative means of transport possible (e.g. bus), but if this is not feasible or will increase the delay then it would not be beyond expectation for the TOC to (shock horror) live up to their obligations!

 

[Bantamzen]

If a delay qualified under the NRCoT minima, a passenger who is nevertheless refused compensation might have a reasonable case to take the TOC to Court. Of course, they would have a duty to reasonably mitigate the delay by using any alternative means of transport possible (e.g. bus), but if this is not feasible or will increase the delay then it would not be beyond expectation for the TOC to (shock horror) live up to their obligations!

I don't know if any such case has been brought, its certainly not something that has been raised before as far as I am aware & the current T&Cs have been in place for some time. It would be interesting to see what the result might be, but could be interesting as how would a passenger prove they were delayed or missed a last possible connection with a little pink smartcard. I can't help but feel that the exclusion of the delay repay option in the MCard is there to stop people abusing it in the first place.

Just as a hypothetical example (pulling one out of the bag) say if the last evening service from Bradford to Ilkley were cancelled, and there is was other option to travel home & with no station staff around a passenger would have no choice but to get a taxi. So if they then pursued Northern for compensation, how would they prove intent to travel by train if they had only a MCard? To all intents & purposes, the passenger may have not planned to travel by train at all but might still try to claim it back had they been aware of the cancellation (and I'm sure some people would try this). If they had a single or return, they could at least say that the contract was not fulfilled and that they had no alternative, but with a MCard there are no specified journeys on it, just a zonal pass. So just how would a passenger prove that they actually planned to use such a cancelled service?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I don't know if any such case has been brought, its certainly not something that has been raised before as far as I am aware & the current T&Cs have been in place for some time. It would be interesting to see what the result might be, but could be interesting as how would a passenger prove they were delayed or missed a last possible connection with a little pink smartcard. I can't help but feel that the exclusion of the delay repay option in the MCard is there to stop people abusing it in the first place.

Just as a hypothetical example (pulling one out of the bag) say if the last evening service from Bradford to Ilkley were cancelled, and there is was other option to travel home & with no station staff around a passenger would have no choice but to get a taxi. So if they then pursued Northern for compensation, how would they prove intent to travel by train if they had only a MCard? To all intents & purposes, the passenger may have not planned to travel by train at all but might still try to claim it back had they been aware of the cancellation (and I'm sure some people would try this). If they had a single or return, they could at least say that the contract was not fulfilled and that they had no alternative, but with a MCard there are no specified journeys on it, just a zonal pass. So just how would a passenger prove that they actually planned to use such a cancelled service?

It's just the same as a season ticket, rover, ranger, ALR, BritRail, InterRail etc. - all these are multi-journey tickets which have no specifically defined journey. A TOC would be treading on thin ice to claim that the passenger had to prove their intention to make their journey. Just how would it be possible to prove this? It's possible to prove that a certain train was delayed or cancelled and the passenger can say that they were on that train or intended to take it. Anything else is the TOCs' responsibility.

In a way this is similar to Delay Repay claims on any ticket not restricted to a particular train (i.e. anything but an Advance). There'll always be scope for abuse but serial abusers will be caught and prosecuted (and we all know how the rail industry has a thing for prosecuting). Or are you proposing that Delay Repay should be scrapped on non-fixed-train tickets because of the scope for abuse

 

[Bantamzen]

It's just the same as a season ticket, rover, ranger, ALR, BritRail, InterRail etc. - all these are multi-journey tickets which have no specifically defined journey. A TOC would be treading on thin ice to claim that the passenger had to prove their intention to make their journey. Just how would it be possible to prove this? It's possible to prove that a certain train was delayed or cancelled and the passenger can say that they were on that train or intended to take it. Anything else is the TOCs' responsibility.

In a way this is similar to Delay Repay claims on any ticket not restricted to a particular train (i.e. anything but an Advance). There'll always be scope for abuse but serial abusers will be caught and prosecuted (and we all know how the rail industry has a thing for prosecuting). Or are you proposing that Delay Repay should be scrapped on non-fixed-train tickets because of the scope for abuse

Firstly no, I am not proposing Delay Repay be scrapped, whatever made you think that?

So with all this in mind, why does it clearly state in the MCard T&Cs that the season tickets are not included in Delay Repay? It wasn't just put there without thought, there must be a reason why WY Metro feel the need to specify that holders cannot claim delay compensation? I can only conclude that as this is a third party party product, and not associated directly with either the TOCs or National Rail, that it's T&Cs have been agreed outside of the regulation for other tickets. I am genuinely interested in this a an MCard user myself, as I'm sure many other users would be.

 

[ainsworth74]

So if they then pursued Northern for compensation, how would they prove intent to travel by train if they had only a MCard? To all intents & purposes, the passenger may have not planned to travel by train at all but might still try to claim it back had they been aware of the cancellation (and I'm sure some people would try this).

I hold a season ticket (rail only) and occasionally have to claim Delay Repay. How do Northern know I intended to travel on one train that was delayed and not another which wasn't? How do they even know I travelled at all? Of course to make such a claim would be fraudulent (and it is something that TOCs are getting hotter on see the recent trawl by GTR of claims they thought might be false) but there is, at first glance, no way of Northern knowing that I "intended to travel".

You'll forgive me but I do not see that this concept has any relevance to the matter at hand and is simply clouding the issues.

 

[Bantamzen]

I hold a season ticket (rail only) and occasionally have to claim Delay Repay. How do Northern know I intended to travel on one train that was delayed and not another which wasn't? How do they even know I travelled at all? Of course to make such a claim would be fraudulent (and it is something that TOCs are getting hotter on see the recent trawl by GTR of claims they thought might be false) but there is, at first glance, no way of Northern knowing that I "intended to travel".

You'll forgive me but I do not see that this concept has any relevance to the matter at hand and is simply clouding the issues.

I thought the relevance might be around the T&Cs around the MCard / Metrocards & provision of alternative transport and/or Delay Repay. But if you feel this is going off-topic please feel free to remove / move / delete as appropriate.

 

[boxy321]

Those MCard terms are pretty harsh. The bit about multi-zonal only excluding things especially.

I've just looked up my midlands nnetwork TOCs to see what they say about Delay Repay and getting you home. Nothing mentioned at all. Interestingly, the 1st class add-on is train only so would an MCard equivalent still be able to state Delay Repay on train tickets only?

 

[Bantamzen]

Those MCard terms are pretty harsh. The bit about multi-zonal only excluding things especially.

I've just looked up my midlands nnetwork TOCs to see what they say about Delay Repay and getting you home. Nothing mentioned at all. Interestingly, the 1st class add-on is train only so would an MCard equivalent still be able to state Delay Repay on train tickets only?

I think the OP is going to see if they can successfully make a Delay Repay on their rail only pass. Hopefully once a decision has been made they can update the thread?

 

[johntea]

I submitted the claim this morning so we shall see, not quite sure how they'll work it out based on my £182.30 monthly ticket but no harm in seeing what they come back with!

 

[boxy321]

My last Delay Repay on a similar £140 monthly was a cheque from VTWC for £1.50. Don't spend it all at once!

 

[185143]

I've had taxis provided 3 or 4 times, not once have I been asked to show a ticket. Is this unusual?
(Arranged by several TOCs too:
VTWC at Warrington Bank Quay
Old Northern at Newcastle
EMT at Hubberts Bridge
Merseyrail at South Parkway
ScotRail at Anniesland (via Control))

I don't for a second accept that T&Cs of a ticket can override the NRCoT. Refusing delay repay (or even, the minimum requirements set out in the NRCoT) is one thing, but I'd like to think not even Northern would willingly leave someone stranded. If there is a feasable bus alternative that's included in the validity of the passenger's ticket, that's a little different-though it depends on the situation. I wouldn't fancy being a vulnerable person and travelling on the 192 in Manchester on my own in the small hours, for example.

 

[boxy321]

I only tried D.R. to see what would happen. In practice I don't bother now since my delayed trains from Brum are resolved by either another pint or the next train or both (one pint equates to 20 mins...).

 

[Bantamzen]

I've had taxis provided 3 or 4 times, not once have I been asked to show a ticket. Is this unusual?
(Arranged by several TOCs too:
VTWC at Warrington Bank Quay
Old Northern at Newcastle
EMT at Hubberts Bridge
Merseyrail at South Parkway
ScotRail at Anniesland (via Control))

I don't for a second accept that T&Cs of a ticket can override the NRCoT. Refusing delay repay (or even, the minimum requirements set out in the NRCoT) is one thing, but I'd like to think not even Northern would willingly leave someone stranded. If there is a feasable bus alternative that's included in the validity of the passenger's ticket, that's a little different-though it depends on the situation. I wouldn't fancy being a vulnerable person and travelling on the 192 in Manchester on my own in the small hours, for example.

The T&Cs are one thing, a TOC may still in some circumstances still choose to offer alternative transport home regardless. And I would welcome that, but at the same time I would not take it for granted. If I ever found myself, MCard in hand at Leeds having missed a last train at Leeds (or anywhere else in West Yorkshire) with no bus alternative available I would always have it in the back of my mind that I will possibly have to fork out for a taxi and worry about the cost later. Being aware that these TOCs exist, regardless as to whether you agree with them or not, at least arms you with the knowledge you may be sorting your own transport home & fight for a refund later. Better that than to be stranded with no money & no means to complete your journey.

 

[yorkie]

The T&Cs are one thing, a TOC may still in some circumstances still choose to offer alternative transport home regardless. And I would welcome that, but at the same time I would not take it for granted. If I ever found myself, MCard in hand at Leeds having missed a last train at Leeds (or anywhere else in West Yorkshire) with no bus alternative available I would always have it in the back of my mind that I will possibly have to fork out for a taxi and worry about the cost later. Being aware that these TOCs exist, regardless as to whether you agree with them or not, at least arms you with the knowledge you may be sorting your own transport home & fight for a refund later. Better that than to be stranded with no money & no means to complete your journey.

If you have a valid travel itinerary, and a delay to your journey results in the last train being missed, and there is no bus alternative, the train company is required to organise alternative travel arrangements.

The only time this would not be the case is where exceptional circumstances such as extreme weather prevent them doing so.

Going back to this post...

.... And as I had a multi-modal ticket, they advised that I head for the bus station to get a bus home.

So this is what I did, waited with hundreds of other people for a 110, which as it turned out would be one of the last to run, and head into Wakefield. However once I got there all buses south had also stopped running.....

I know I discussed this on here earlier but I have since discussed this with someone who is in the position of being able to authorise taxi requests and works with tickets with similar validity. We agreed that it was reasonable in the first instance to advise you to aim for a bus, as it was reasonable to believe the bus was running and other customers were understandably being prioritised, however once that bus became cancelled, we agreed that had you gone back for further assistance at that point, they would - at that stage - have then authorised a taxi if it was possible to do so.

 

[Bantamzen]

If you have a valid travel itinerary, and a delay to your journey results in the last train being missed, and there is no bus alternative, the train company is required to organise alternative travel arrangements.

The only time this would not be the case is where exceptional circumstances such as extreme weather prevent them doing so.

Going back to this post...

Well that is certainly well worth knowing, and I will keep it in mind should circumstances ever arise like this.

I know I discussed this on here earlier but I have since discussed this with someone who is in the position of being able to authorise taxi requests and works with tickets with similar validity. We agreed that it was reasonable in the first instance to advise you to aim for a bus, as it was reasonable to believe the bus was running and other customers were understandably being prioritised, however once that bus became cancelled, we agreed that had you gone back for further assistance at that point, they would - at that stage - have then authorised a taxi if it was possible to do so.

In this particular situation although the advice was sound for travel as far as Wakefield at the time given, Arriva were still attempting to run at least the 110 as a normal service between Wakefield & Leeds, but for travel beyond to the worst affected areas such as South Elmsall buses had already ceased running south of Wakefield at this juncture. But neither myself nor the staff would have known this directly, and I'm not sure what channels of communications there might have been to establish at the time that the full Leeds-South Elmsall route was no longer possible by bus. So it was just one of those things, I did consider going back to the station as we (the several hundred amassed passengers) had to queue for close to 1.5 hours before we could board a 110 (and as it happens they were the last to run, with drivers having instructions from their control to load as much as possible & forego fare collection) but didn't want to risk losing my place in the queue.

On arrival at Wakefield I'll be honest it really didn't occur to me to try going up to Westgate to see if a taxi was possible, seeing a very empty bus station and what passengers left saying the job had stopped prompted me find a taxi post-haste before that option ran out too. But as I say, it is useful to know should extreme situations like the flooding in 2007 happen again, and with operators utilising social media platforms like Twitter it should be much easier to establish when this might be appropriate. So thank you for the research and advice.

 

[johntea]

Dear,

Thank you for your correspondence in respect to the Northern service on 20
April 2018 with our reference.

I am sorry to learn that your journey between Harrogate and Castleford was
disrupted, and that you were caused a delay as a result. Please be assured
that we are committed to operating a punctual train service on all of our
routes, continually reviewing and monitoring the cause of all delays to our
trains, to ensure that appropriate measures are put in place to reduce their
recurrence wherever this is possible.

Our Delay Repay policy entitles customers to compensation if their journey
with us is delayed in excess of 30 minutes. Because the circumstances of the
disruption on this occasion were within the 30 minute time line, we are
unable to provide compensation as per our delay repay policy.

Your planned route (scheduled times):
Departing 2146 from Harrogate to Leeds arriving 2223.
Departing 2237 from Leeds to Castleford arriving 2254.

Route we think you took (actual times):
Departed 2203 from Harrogate to Leeds arrived 2237.
Departed 2237 from Leeds to Castleford arrived 2254.

Delay repay does not in any way limit or exclude your other legal rights to
compensation as a consumer where we are at fault, under the Consumer Rights
Act 2015 or otherwise.

In conclusion, thank you once again for contacting us and I am sorry that
your journey was disrupted on this occasion. If I can be of any further
assistance please do not hesitate to get back in touch at
[email protected]

Kind regards,
Northern

What?! Yes Northern, of course I managed to make it from Platform 4 to Platform 17 (or whatever it was) in the whole 0 seconds I had available to me!

One of the most bonkers responses I think I've ever had from Northern! They totally ignored the comments I put in the notes section regarding getting home at 23:50 or so due to having to wait for the taxi etc. and the fact I saw the 22:37 depart from the window of the train I was arriving in on!

 

[johntea]

The saga continues with Northern and their so called “customer service”

After replying back with a slightly sarcastic but professional email along the lines of sadly not having teleportation powers on 29 April I received a response last night at 23:10 (strange time, didn’t think they operated that late unless the emails are on a scheduled system)

In the response they started the response with ‘Dear Julie’, last time I checked I wasn’t called Julie and I certainly wasn’t female!

They have ‘reviewed my information’ and upgraded my claim to over 2 hours (not quite sure why they’ve done that when the overall journey delay was just over an hour) but have I received a resolution yet? No, they’ve just opened a new case reference!