Missing a last train connection due to cancellation of the first train

[TheEdge]

There is a 21:48 from Leeds but that involves a journey of 8½ hours with a wait of 2hrs 24m at Derby in the middle of the night which I personally do not consider a reasonable journey.

Theoretical devils advocate question to throw around.

Its often (and as I understand correctly) touted that if an official journey planner will generate a route then that route and journey becomes valid and the ticket must be honoured for that journey even if the route isn't a normal permitted route. So conversely if a route planner was to generate the above journey then surely it is a valid and acceptable route therefore no alternative transport needs to be provided?

Discuss.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Theoretical devils advocate question to throw around.

Its often (and as I understand correctly) touted that if an official journey planner will generate a route then that route and journey becomes valid and the ticket must be honoured for that journey even if the route isn't a normal permitted route. So conversely if a route planner was to generate the above journey then surely it is a valid and acceptable route therefore no alternative transport needs to be provided?

Discuss.

I don't think a route with a lengthy overnight wait would be considered to be an acceptable one and would fail any reasonable duty of care the railway had, particularly as the station is likely closed overnight. You can generate one of those for pretty much any connection using last/first trains. They may be useful to some but forcing someone to use one isn't really acceptable.

 

[221129]

At Leeds, fewer and fewer drivers are willing to take Rail passengers due to the delay in getting paid.

That surprises me as its normally a condition of getting a permit for the station ranks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That surprises me as its normally a condition of getting a permit for the station ranks.

What taxi drivers say and do are very often two entirely different things.

 

[robbeech]

That surprises me as its normally a condition of getting a permit for the station ranks.

I think we need to remember this is the real world not the rule book world here. I've been in more than one taxi provided by operators in which the discussion has turned into "they take 100+ days to pay then try to barter on price". I won't mention the operators, I don't think they've starred in this thread as yet. Of course there may be a little artistic license with what the drivers say, but as a passenger, when i see them making up such drivel to get out of paying the extra £4.30 delay repay it woudn't surprise me if it is not deadly accurate.

Whilst we are often not as forgiving as we should be during major disruption, we do have to put a lot of trust in the railway to do what they can to get passengers home, but more frequently we have to put trust in them to do what they can be bothered to do and this doesn't sit well with me. I am sorry to say that in the last few years I've had to make the suggestions that have got me and other passengers to their destinations as quickly and as safely as possible. On more than one occasion, accepting the idea of the staff member would have led to passengers stranded at an unstaffed station. This was predictable and timetabled. Unfortunately there is (from personal experience) an increasing tendency for staff to get rid of you from their todo list asap, they're more likely to bundle you on a train going the right direction regardless of whether that will leave you stranded at an unstaffed station further down the line when you miss a further connection.

My go to example for this very thing is my regular London King's Cross to Whitwell (via Retford and Worksop) trip. The 2030 HT service is delayed from time to time and misses the Retford to Worksop connection. Both Hull Trains and LNER / (VTEC as was) used to wipe their hands of the problem because there was another Worksop train 40 minutes later. They refused to acknowledge that my final connection would be missed and that i'd be left at an unstaffed station suggesting i deal with the problem either at Worksop or on the train TO Worksop. Of course, the guard (if indeed they ventured out at that time of night) would always immediately wipe their hands of any responsibility as they were not responsible for the delay, and indeed they were running on time. This happened maybe 3 or 4 times per month and each time there was a farce and i had to provide a taxi receipt, and threaten legal action if they didn't pay it ontop of 1hr Delay repay, almost weekly at times. 75% of claims were rejected initially, and 100% of taxi claims were rejected initially. I estimate the charade cost them over £3000. The focus for far too many staff is to get rid of them, make it someone else's problem. This makes it harder for most staff who try to help as the passenger is already stood expecting a fight.

 

[scrapy]

I think we need to remember this is the real world not the rule book world here. I've been in more than one taxi provided by operators in which the discussion has turned into "they take 100+ days to pay then try to barter on price". I won't mention the operators, I don't think they've starred in this thread as yet. Of course there may be a little artistic license with what the drivers say, but as a passenger, when i see them making up such drivel to get out of paying the extra £4.30 delay repay it woudn't surprise me if it is not deadly accurate.

Whilst we are often not as forgiving as we should be during major disruption, we do have to put a lot of trust in the railway to do what they can to get passengers home, but more frequently we have to put trust in them to do what they can be bothered to do and this doesn't sit well with me. I am sorry to say that in the last few years I've had to make the suggestions that have got me and other passengers to their destinations as quickly and as safely as possible. On more than one occasion, accepting the idea of the staff member would have led to passengers stranded at an unstaffed station. This was predictable and timetabled. Unfortunately there is (from personal experience) an increasing tendency for staff to get rid of you from their todo list asap, they're more likely to bundle you on a train going the right direction regardless of whether that will leave you stranded at an unstaffed station further down the line when you miss a further connection.

My go to example for this very thing is my regular London King's Cross to Whitwell (via Retford and Worksop) trip. The 2030 HT service is delayed from time to time and misses the Retford to Worksop connection. Both Hull Trains and LNER / (VTEC as was) used to wipe their hands of the problem because there was another Worksop train 40 minutes later. They refused to acknowledge that my final connection would be missed and that i'd be left at an unstaffed station suggesting i deal with the problem either at Worksop or on the train TO Worksop. Of course, the guard (if indeed they ventured out at that time of night) would always immediately wipe their hands of any responsibility as they were not responsible for the delay, and indeed they were running on time. This happened maybe 3 or 4 times per month and each time there was a farce and i had to provide a taxi receipt, and threaten legal action if they didn't pay it ontop of 1hr Delay repay, almost weekly at times. 75% of claims were rejected initially, and 100% of taxi claims were rejected initially. I estimate the charade cost them over £3000. The focus for far too many staff is to get rid of them, make it someone else's problem. This makes it harder for most staff who try to help as the passenger is already stood expecting a fight.

This really needs to be dealt with by regulators. From the staff's point of view many TOCs are making it impossible for staff to arrange taxis. Gone are the days you could just write out a form to give authority for a taxi. Taxis can often only be booked directly by control. If you can get hold of the right person at control (often impossible during disruption) the staff member then has to go through a lengthy conversation about why a taxi is justified, they will then get fobbed off and told that the passenger should be sent as far as possible and then told to speak to staff or use a help point when they can go no further. That is why staff simply tell passengers to do that, because they know the outcome if they try and arrange a taxi themselves.

 

[robbeech]

This really needs to be dealt with by regulators. From the staff's point of view many TOCs are making it impossible for staff to arrange taxis. Gone are the days you could just write out a form to give authority for a taxi. Taxis can often only be booked directly by control. If you can get hold of the right person at control (often impossible during disruption) the staff member then has to go through a lengthy conversation about why a taxi is justified, they will then get fobbed off and told that the passenger should be sent as far as possible and then told to speak to staff or use a help point when they can go no further. That is why staff simply tell passengers to do that, because they know the outcome if they try and arrange a taxi themselves.

What regulators? There are none in reality.

 

[_toommm_]

What taxi drivers say and do are very often two entirely different things.

I had a taxi booked for me Friday night by Leeds, due to the last train from Carlisle being delayed by 90 minutes. It was booked by a company called CMAC Group, and the taxi provided by Speedline. I believe this is also the company the staff use to travel too.

 

[Kite159]

This really needs to be dealt with by regulators. From the staff's point of view many TOCs are making it impossible for staff to arrange taxis. Gone are the days you could just write out a form to give authority for a taxi. Taxis can often only be booked directly by control. If you can get hold of the right person at control (often impossible during disruption) the staff member then has to go through a lengthy conversation about why a taxi is justified, they will then get fobbed off and told that the passenger should be sent as far as possible and then told to speak to staff or use a help point when they can go no further. That is why staff simply tell passengers to do that, because they know the outcome if they try and arrange a taxi themselves.

Get told to use an help point which either doesn't connect to anybody at the other end, or connects to someone for NRE who can be as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

 

[Kilopylae]

I've seen plenty of examples where taxis have been arranged for origins to far flung destinations even where it might have been possible to make some progress by rail.

Newport staff actively told me not to board a train to Bristol when I needed to reach Exeter because it would be easier for them to sort a taxi. It was TfW disruption, though, so maybe that's why.

Get told to use an help point which either doesn't connect to anybody at the other end, or connects to someone for NRE who can be as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

Outdoors, in the cold, often with depleted phone battery, and never in the shelter if it happens to be raining.