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Missing booked Advance train due to delay on separate connecting ticket

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Bungaroosh

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Hello,

I'm trying to work out what happens if you miss your Advance ticket booked train due to delays on a separate ticket and TOC that you have used to reach the starting station for the Advance booked train.

I have a Advance London St Pancras to Sheffield ticket that leaves St Pancras at 11:58. To catch that booked train I have an Off Peak Return from Brighton to London St Pancras ("Not Underground", i.e. Thameslink). I plan on getting the first Off Peak train leaves Brighton at 09:35 and gets to St Pancras at 11:03.

Things are so messed up with the trains from Brighton of late though, there's a possibility of not making that connection at St Pancras even with 55 minutes to spare! Because I have two separate tickets (i.e. not an individual Brighton to Sheffield ticket), this highlighted part from the regulations confuses me a bit:

You must be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx

The first train I'm booked on is the St Pancras to Sheffield train. I have a ticket for Brighton to St Pancras, but I am not booked on any train for that leg as it's an Off Peak Return.

There may well not be a major delay, but what with Southern sickness and sewers opening up under the tracks in south London, I would like to know what position I'd be in if I am delayed on the way to St Pancras and miss the booked London to Sheffield train.

Sorry about bits of repetition here and there, but I just wanted to make this query as clear as possible.

Many thanks as ever for any pointers! :)
 
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AlterEgo

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If you miss your booked train because of a delay on a preceding service, you may take the next available train to Sheffield.

You should see staff to get your ticket endorsed if this occurs.

You should ensure your two tickets "join", and left the minimum connection time, which you have done so. :)
 

Bungaroosh

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Thanks AlterEgo.

That sounds reasonable, but do you have a link to any wording in a regulation that confirms this? It's just that the "for any reason" bit here sounds a bit definite and fierce: "If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased". The first train on which I am booked is the London to Sheffield one. If I miss that, the "any reason" that will oblige me to "purchase a new ticket" will be a delay on the Thameslink train from Brighton. :/
 

crehld

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If you miss your booked train because of a delay on a preceding service, you may take the next available train to Sheffield.

Indeed. You are permitted to take the next available train to Sheffield.

You should see staff to get your ticket endorsed if this occurs.

I think we need to be clear that there is no compulsion for a passenger to do this whatsoever (and indeed there may not be time if you're rushing because you're delayed), and the passenger's explanation of the delay should be more than sufficient (with a ticket inspector independently corroborating details of the delay if they must). It may however save unnecessary hassle should they encounter a ticket inspector who erroneously claims the ticket isn't valid for travel.
 

AlterEgo

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I think we need to be clear that there is no compulsion for a passenger to do this whatsoever (and indeed there may not be time if you're rushing because you're delayed), and the passenger's explanation of the delay should be more than sufficient (with a ticket inspector independently corroborating details of the delay if they must). It may however save unnecessary hassle should they encounter a ticket inspector who erroneously claims the ticket isn't valid for travel.

Quite. The TnCs of the ticket and the NRCoC make no mention of the need to get the ticket endorsed.

In practice all guards have access to train running data to check delays. But it still makes sense to get it endorsed, if there is time.
 

Steveoh

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Indeed. You are permitted to take the next available train to Sheffield.



I think we need to be clear that there is no compulsion for a passenger to do this whatsoever (and indeed there may not be time if you're rushing because you're delayed), and the passenger's explanation of the delay should be more than sufficient (with a ticket inspector independently corroborating details of the delay if they must). It may however save unnecessary hassle should they encounter a ticket inspector who erroneously claims the ticket isn't valid for travel.

This happened to me a few weeks ago. I was connecting onto an East Midlands Trains service at St Pancras. My ticket was endorsed at the gate line. The staff had a stamp to do this and were standing ready to do so at the gate line. They're also pretty helpful at the desk next to the gate line.
 

daodao

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Surely, the permission to take a later train can only be granted if one has a through ticket and the first train, which should have been scheduled to arrive in time to make an official connection to the 2nd train, is late. If one purchases separate tickets for whatever reason, the segments will be treated as separate journeys and a late arrival to change to the 2nd train will require the purchase of another ticket. The contracts are not linked.
 
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crehld

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This happened to me a few weeks ago. I was connecting onto an East Midlands Trains service at St Pancras. My ticket was endorsed at the gate line. The staff had a stamp to do this and were standing ready to do so at the gate line. They're also pretty helpful at the desk next to the gate line.

This sounds like quite a good and efficient system.
 

Bungaroosh

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Surely the permission to take a later train can only be granted if one has a through ticket and the first train, which should have been scheduled to arrive in time to make an official connection to the 2nd train, is late. If one purchases separate tickets for whatever reason, the segments will be treated as separate journeys and a late arrival to change to the 2nd train will require the purchase of another ticket. The contracts are not linked.

Hmm. This is the crux of my confusion (if I may be overegging the pudding somewhat with such a flouncy statement!)
 
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transmanche

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Surely the permission to take a later train can only be granted if one has a through ticket and the first train, which should have been scheduled to arrive in time to make an official connection to the 2nd train, is late. If one purchases separate tickets for whatever reason, the segments will be treated as separate journeys and a late arrival to change to the 2nd train will require the purchase of another ticket. The contracts are not linked.
NRCoC 19 disagrees with you.
 

crehld

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Surely the permission to take a later train can only be granted if one has a through ticket and the first train, which should have been scheduled to arrive in time to make an official connection to the 2nd train, is late. If one purchases separate tickets for whatever reason, the segments will be treated as separate journeys and a late arrival to change to the 2nd train will require the purchase of another ticket. The contracts are not linked.

This is not correct.

The contract you refer to explicitly permits a passenger to use two or more tickets for a single journey.

National Rail Conditions of Carriage said:
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Thus the segments of a journey are not treated as separate journeys / contracts. They are defined in the contract as a single journey. This is a fundamental principle of UK railway ticketing the National Rail Conditions of Carriage which all rail staff should know about, and therefore is rarely a problem.

Bungaroosh's intended journey and the tickets he/she holds satisfy the criteria laid out in Condition 19(b) of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, and therefore it is defined as one journey.

Guidance internal to the rail industry, which AlterEgo referred to earlier, clarifies this very situation:

Q04 - Can a customer buy two Advance tickets which join together to make one journey, e.g. ticket for A-B plus ticket for B-C, to travel the throughout journey A-C?
A: Yes, provided the train calls at B. See travel with a combination of tickets.
Note 1: Where a passenger buys multiple Advance tickets in this way, if they then have to change their booking, it will also cost them multiple amounts of £10 fee.
Note 2: Where separate train companies are used for A-B and B-C with a change of train and ticket at B, it is still classed as a through rail journey in the event of delays (see also Q21 below) provided connections were booked in accordance with the advertised minimum times for stations. For example, a passenger travelling Cambridge to Leeds holding a combination of Cambridge – Peterborough ‘XC only’ and Peterborough – Leeds ‘EC only’ is allowed to take the next Virgin Trains East Coast service in the event of a delay on the CrossCountry journey causing the connection to be missed.
 
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edwin_m

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Would this still be valid for different stations but walking is probably the most sensible way to travel between them. I'm thinking of Brighton-SP and KX to somewhere, or Brighton-SP and Euston to somewhere.
 

crehld

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Hmm. This is the crux of my confusion (if I may be overegging the pudding somewhat with such a flouncy statement!)

daodao's speculations are misleading. Stick to AlterEgo's advice in post 2. If you are delayed, I would also avoid sticking your Brighton to St Pancras ticket in the gates at St Pancras in case it gets swallowed. Show it to a gateline assistant and ask them to let you through manually instead.
 

AlterEgo

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Would this still be valid for different stations but walking is probably the most sensible way to travel between them. I'm thinking of Brighton-SP and KX to somewhere, or Brighton-SP and Euston to somewhere.

Yes. These are published interchanges. Always make sure you leave at least the minimum connection time.
 

yorkie

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Surely the permission to take a later train can only be granted if one has a through ticket...
No. That's not the case. See earlier posts, including the link to the Advance Fare FAQ which is included in our Fares Guide. I suggest you read our Fares Guide as the rules in many cases may be different to what you think. See: RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide
.... If one purchases separate tickets for whatever reason, the segments will be treated as separate journeys and a late arrival to change to the 2nd train will require the purchase of another ticket. The contracts are not linked.
This is absolutely incorrect.

Passengers MAY use two or more tickets for one journey. This is very clearly stated in the Conditions (NRCoC 19).
 

Agent_c

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Surely the permission to take a later train can only be granted if one has a through ticket and the first train, which should have been scheduled to arrive in time to make an official connection to the 2nd train, is late. If one purchases separate tickets for whatever reason, the segments will be treated as separate journeys and a late arrival to change to the 2nd train will require the purchase of another ticket. The contracts are not linked.

Yes, they are. Both contracts are subject to the NCoC which specifically permits and accounts for split ticketing. That creates the link.
 

daodao

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The permission in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, condition 19b, to allow the use of two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another, does not necessarily mean that legally it would automatically be regarded as a single contract of carriage if one purchases separate tickets for each segment of the journey. Surely all the condition does is not to prohibit split ticketing. How can one prove that the tickets are linked? Some railway companies/officials may be lenient if there are delays, but surely it is AYOR.
 

AlterEgo

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The permission in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, condition 19b, to allow the use of two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another, does not necessarily mean that legally it would automatically be regarded as a single contract of carriage if one purchases separate tickets for each segment of the journey. Surely all the condition does is not to prohibit split ticketing. How can one prove that the tickets are linked? Some railway companies/officials may be lenient if there are delays, but surely it is AYOR.

You are simply wrong. Two posters here who are what I'd consider to be fares experts have explained this in full. And I have provided written proof that this isn't the case.

Sorry to be direct but what you posted is just wholly incorrect.
 

Bungaroosh

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Thanks everyone for all the clarifications.

I wonder why then something false and confusing is stated as the first point under "Conditions of Use" (for Advance ticket terms and conditions on the National Rail website -- presumably one of the first ports of call for an ordinary passenger seeking clarification on this matter):
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx
You must be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.
If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.
They need to clarify what is the "first train on which you are booked". I took it, not unreasonably, to be the first train on which I am booked, i.e. the specified train on which I must travel for the Advance ticket to be valid. If, as in this case, I travel by train to the starting station of the Advance ticket, and make that journey using an outward portion of an Off Peak Return, I don't consider myself to be "booked" on any specific train when travelling on Thameslink with an Off Peak Return ticket that would permit me on a weekday to travel on any Brighton to St Pancras train from 09:35 to the close of service that day.

It's because of this wrong--or at best highly ambiguous--information that I had to ask for expert advice here on the forum! :)
 

Hadders

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The permission in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, condition 19b, to allow the use of two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another, does not necessarily mean that legally it would automatically be regarded as a single contract of carriage if one purchases separate tickets for each segment of the journey. Surely all the condition does is not to prohibit split ticketing. How can one prove that the tickets are linked? Some railway companies/officials may be lenient if there are delays, but surely it is AYOR.

Stop digging! You are making things up.

How do you explain the industry guidance?
 

crehld

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It's because of this wrong--or at best highly ambiguous--information that I had to ask for expert advice here on the forum! :)

Unfortunately our ticketing and fares system is inherently complex and confusing. Information on official websites can be incorrect and ambiguous as you point out. So your overall confusion, and indeed that of any other passenger unfamiliar with the detailed ins and outs of our system, is completely understandable.

Fortunately the good folk of this forum are on hand to help :D (well mostly anyway!).

For what it's worth the website is probably aimed passengers who aren't splitting their tickets. While most don't, a substantial proportion do, however. the key bit of the statement you quote is the third sentence:

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

And the key word in that sentence is "journey". Your journey is from Brighton to Sheffield and thus if you are delayed while travelling you will be allowed to take the next available trains(s) to complete your journey.

Your experience does highlight that the industry has an issue with how it communicates clearly and accurately to passengers, not helped of course by the complexity it itself has created.
 
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Merseysider

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The permission in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, condition 19b, to allow the use of two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another, does not necessarily mean that legally it would automatically be regarded as a single contract of carriage if one purchases separate tickets for each segment of the journey. Surely all the condition does is not to prohibit split ticketing. How can one prove that the tickets are linked? Some railway companies/officials may be lenient if there are delays, but surely it is AYOR.
Planes/buses/taxis/kangaroos yes, AYOR. Trains, no. As has already been clearly pointed out, two or more tickets can be used for one journey and you are atrociously incorrect in your assertions, as the Conditions of Carriage form part of the legal contract [to travel] and therefore do have legal bearing regarding separate tickets allowing later travel in the event of a delay. Please refrain from spreading further misinformation.
 

yorkie

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The permission in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, condition 19b, to allow the use of two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another, does not necessarily mean that legally it would automatically be regarded as a single contract of carriage if one purchases separate tickets for each segment of the journey. Surely all the condition does is not to prohibit split ticketing. How can one prove that the tickets are linked? Some railway companies/officials may be lenient if there are delays, but surely it is AYOR.
Have you read our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide?

In particular our section regarding Advance tickets includes an attachment of a PDF document which is taken from the internal Knowledgebase compiled and hosted by the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) and applicable to all TOCs. This clarifies that a combination of fares "it is still classed as a through rail journey in the event of delays"

Six years ago, a couple of passengers (known here as 'zzip00') were told by a well known Newcastle based Guard that their Norwich-Peterborough and Peterborough-York tickets were separate contracts and that their Peterborough-York tickets were not valid due to the first train being delayed.

This was surprising, given that the company had, in March 2010, issued instructions to staff not to charge people and to treat such passengers as making one journey. Anyway, suffice to say, the request for payment was dropped by the company and further instruction was issued in the Pricing & Ticketing Update for October/November 2010 (these are available here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ticket_office_staff_training#incoming-175565)

Shortly after, the Advance Fare FAQs were launched to clarify this position, which had always been the obvious contractual position as defined in the ticket conditions and NRCoC, and made available to all rail staff, thus quashing any lingering doubts.

Since then, incidents of passengers being incorrectly told that a combination of tickets isn't valid for one journey have been very rare indeed.

If you remain worried (you really needn't be!), then be sure to book such combinations on Trainsplit.com where possible, as you will be issued with one itinerary (and no risk of you making a mistake ensuring the fares link up) and, in the very unlikely event of anyone wrongly telling you that a combination of tickets cannot be used for one journey, the company would be prepared to support you in any practicable way to resolve the matter.
 

SickyNicky

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The permission in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, condition 19b, to allow the use of two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another, does not necessarily mean that legally it would automatically be regarded as a single contract of carriage if one purchases separate tickets for each segment of the journey. Surely all the condition does is not to prohibit split ticketing. How can one prove that the tickets are linked? Some railway companies/officials may be lenient if there are delays, but surely it is AYOR.

And just to add to the chorus of people making it clear that you can split advances and will be carried on later trains in the event of a delay (or be offered a taxi/accommodation if stranded), we sell split advances commercially on our various websites. The rules allowing travel on later trains when delayed by earlier services are made clear on our sites and in the confirmation email we send you.

We have NEVER had a complaint from a customer who was denied travel on a later train due to a delay on an earlier service. It seems the industry has got the message at last.
 

Bungaroosh

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For what it's worth the website is probably aimed passengers who aren't splitting their tickets.

Well, the website is National Rail Enquiries, so I don't think it's aimed specifically at passengers who are not splitting their tickets.

Anyone who has bought an Advance ticket starting from a London terminus and who doesn't live within walking distance or non-train London Transport travelling distance of King's Cross or Paddington etc. will be splitting their tickets. E.g. Advance Tickets from Brighton to anywhere north of London beyond the Network Southeast area (or whatever it's called now) in my experience only seem to be affordable and practical when buying them from the TOC's London terminus station. A Brighton to Sheffield ticket is always* more expensive than the combined cost of a Brighton to St Pancras ticket and St Pancras to Sheffield ticket. (or King's Cross to Durham or Euston to Manchester etc.)

I'm tempted to ask National Rail Enquires to correct that information on their website, but I wouldn't know whom to contact and I probably wouldn't find the most concise and efficient wording to communicate what it should be changed to.

I hope this doesn't come across as a whinge or snipe at you though, crehld, as your commentary on this thread has been very helpful and instructive to me! :D

(* This may in part be due to my using a Network Railcard and only ever travelling outside the morning peak after 10:00 when heading up north. In the case of the opening post where I get the 09:35 from Brighton I'll be using a Two Together railcard)
 
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