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Missing TPE trains at Grimsby, Saturday afternoon 10th July.

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Mugby

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I was at Grimsby this afternoon wanting to get the 1534 TPE service to Manchester but the displays were showing cancelled. Also showing cancelled were the 1634 and the 1734.

A quick word with the girl in the booking office established that road transport had been arranged which was fine for me because I was only travelling to Doncaster, as it happened, the coach which turned up did the journey to Doncaster quicker than the train which says a lot about how slow the rail route is!

I'm unable to find out exactly what the problem was, RTT isn't showing the 1534 or the 1634, cancelled or otherwise. Apparently the 1734 did run despite initially being shown as cancelled at Grimsby.
Does anyone know why two trains disappeared off the radar completely? It must have been known well in advance for road coaches to be sourced.
 
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gimmea50anyday

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Sunday is not part of the working week and is therefore rostered as forced overtime. TPE staff can choose not to work it but only if cover is available, usually in the form of a rest day work volunteer. Sunday doesn't have any spare cover or service protection turns.

When a week of leave is taken the Sundays either side of the week are also taken as leave unless the staff member elects to work them. In this case no cover is required, however any volunteers will be stepped up to these uncovered turns before any leave requests are fulfilled. Being what yesterday was it is very likely staff chose not to volunteer themselves for Sunday work leaving jobs uncovered. Unfortunate for the punters but if staff do not wish to work on their day off then that's their prerogative.
 

LowLevel

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Sunday is not part of the working week and is therefore rostered as forced overtime. TPE staff can choose not to work it but only if cover is available, usually in the form of a rest day work volunteer. Sunday doesn't have any spare cover or service protection turns.

When a week of leave is taken the Sundays either side of the week are also taken as leave unless the staff member elects to work them. In this case no cover is required, however any volunteers will be stepped up to these uncovered turns before any leave requests are fulfilled. Being what yesterday was it is very likely staff chose not to volunteer themselves for Sunday work leaving jobs uncovered. Unfortunate for the punters but if staff do not wish to work on their day off then that's their prerogative.

Except this was posted on Saturday :D
 

gimmea50anyday

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Except this was posted on Saturday :D
oh......

so it was......

I suppose therefore once weekly leave and sickness has been taken in to account spare cover hasn't managed to cover all of the shifts and again no one has come forward to volunteer themselves for overtime or rest day work.
 

the sniper

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Sunday doesn't have any spare cover or service protection turns.

There are none rostered? Is that routinely the case at TPE? That would seem an exceptionally perilous way to run a railway, even by railway Sunday service standards!
 

Watershed

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There are none rostered? Is that routinely the case at TPE? That would seem an exceptionally perilous way to run a railway, even by railway Sunday service standards!
For guards, yes. That's the way that most TOCs with Sunday outside the working week do things.
 

the sniper

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For guards, yes. That's the way that most TOCs with Sunday outside the working week do things.

No wonder some TOCs are so unreliable on a Sunday. o_O

If anybody imagines the TOCs are just victims of circumstance and the unions on Sundays, consider that arrangement. Shows how little some TOCs try to run a reliable service on a Sunday.
 

gimmea50anyday

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TPE productivity was supposed to address this, making sunday part of the working week and increasing contracted hours in exchange for a salary increase and enhanced rest day work pay. This would have then provided spares cover and enabled the 7 day timetable which was proposed as part of the franchise. However COVID and the subsequent termination of the franchise has scuppered this. Part of the reason staff wont work a sunday shift if they don't have to is they are receiving less than £100 for a 5hr shift where previously they were receiving £250 (Pre-Tax) for the day. When the loss of a day with the family, transport costs to and from work, food while at work etc are all taken in to account staff are reasonably deciding the wage isn't worth the effort involved. This is also why ScotRail staff are refusing to work on a sunday (Its NOT a strike, its a refusal to work overtime, i.e working to rule) They want to be more reasonably paid for it.
 

the sniper

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I just don't get how a TOC can justify not having any Spares on a Sunday? Surely it's almost inevitable that something will get cancelled, even at the best of times?
 

Watershed

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I just don't get how a TOC can justify not having any Spares on a Sunday? Surely it's almost inevitable that something will get cancelled, even at the best of times?
There are plenty of Sundays where it works just fine - in fact the vast majority. Unfortunately it's on weekends like the one just past that it all falls down.

In the pre-Covid world, the penalties for cancelling a few trains were inevitably smaller than the cost of 'fixing' it properly - given the large pay rise that, as @gimmea50anyday alludes to, would be required to get Sunday in the working week, not to mention the increase in establishment levels that would be required. So there was no incentive for most TOCs to do so.

In today's world it is much the same story, only the DfT is the one making the calculation. And with passenger numbers lower than ever, there is less incentive than ever to significantly increase the industry's fixed costs (i.e. salaries).
 

the sniper

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There are plenty of Sundays where it works just fine - in fact the vast majority. Unfortunately it's on weekends like the one just past that it all falls down.

In the pre-Covid world, the penalties for cancelling a few trains were inevitably smaller than the cost of 'fixing' it properly - given the large pay rise that, as @gimmea50anyday alludes to, would be required to get Sunday in the working week, not to mention the increase in establishment levels that would be required. So there was no incentive for most TOCs to do so.

In today's world it is much the same story, only the DfT is the one making the calculation. And with passenger numbers lower than ever, there is less incentive than ever to significantly increase the industry's fixed costs (i.e. salaries).

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes? I'm familiar with Sundays outside of the week, be they uncommitted or committed, it's just the aspect of there being no Spare or Standby turns on a Sunday that surprises me. So if anybody's late, late notice sick, somebody's fetched off mid shift after incident or assaulted, there's service disruption or any diagrams are left uncovered, there's nobody available to be stepped up, there's no resilience at all? Are TPE diagrams on a Sunday extremely slack to minimise the risk of the whole job falling over if any train crew are delayed?
 
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sd0733

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Maybe we're talking at cross purposes? I'm familiar with Sundays outside of the week, be they uncommitted or committed, it's just the aspect of there being no Spare or Standby turns on a Sunday that surprises me. So if anybody's late, late notice sick, somebody's fetched off mid shift after incident or assaulted, there's service disruption or any diagrams are left uncovered, there's nobody available to be stepped up, there's no resilience at all? Are TPE diagrams on a Sunday extremely slack to minimise the risk of the whole job falling over if any train crew are delayed?
Its certainly not just a Tpe thing. My depot at another is exactly the same and theres zero cover if anything happens on a Sunday.
 

the sniper

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Its certainly not just a Tpe thing. My depot at another is exactly the same and theres zero cover if anything happens on a Sunday.

Well, you learn something new everyday! I really am surprised that some/many TOCs are that stingy though, but I shouldn't be! Maybe Sundays outside the week aren't entirely to blame after all for all the complaints...
 

Mugby

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To get back on topic a little, the reason I posted the thread was that, given TPE are the only provider on that particular route, Grimsby to Doncaster, I thought it was a very poor show to leave a three hour gap in service in the middle of Saturday afternnon!
 

RHolmes

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There are spare shifts for Guards on Sundays (albeit minimal) my spare this weekend has just turned into a full shift!

To get back on topic a little, the reason I posted the thread was that, given TPE are the only provider on that particular route, Grimsby to Doncaster, I thought it was a very poor show to leave a three hour gap in service in the middle of Saturday afternnon!

Staff shortages are affecting ALL depots at the moment. The issue with the south route is that only Cleethorpes and Sheffield sign beyond Sheffield

If healthy staff are told by the NHS app to isolate, they’re required to do so, and that’s not including other staff sickness, holidays, training etc
 

Watershed

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If healthy staff are told by the NHS app to isolate, they’re required to do so
They're not legally, as in criminally, required to do so. But of course company policy will prevent them from attending work.

and that’s not including other staff sickness, holidays, training etc
The fundamental issue here is that the Cleethorpes route is operating to a near pre-Covid frequency and timetable - with the notable exception of the Manchester Airport leg - hence there is very little 'slack' to account for the challenges that have been incurred in the last 16 months.
 

Mugby

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When I put 'missing' in the thread title, what I was getting at was the 1534 departure from Grimsby wasn't even mentioned on RTT that day, normally, a cancellation is shaded in red and a reason given, or perhaps just 'No report'. With it having dropped off the radar, I had to wonder if it had been scheduled to run at all, but apparently it was. The next train, the 1624 was a pre-planned cancellation.
 

PHILIPE

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When I put 'missing' in the thread title, what I was getting at was the 1534 departure from Grimsby wasn't even mentioned on RTT that day, normally, a cancellation is shaded in red and a reason given, or perhaps just 'No report'. With it having dropped off the radar, I had to wonder if it had been scheduled to run at all, but apparently it was. The next train, the 1624 was a pre-planned cancellation.

Probably nothing more than a "glitch" in the system preventing it loading. It is scheduled to run every Saturday from May to September
 
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