Mistakenly travelled too far - TIR recorded

[Thundercat]

Hi all,

Hoping for some advice.

Today I travelled from South Ruislip to Beaconsfield with Chiltern Railways with a return ticket.

On the return journey I boarded a train to Marylebone, not realising that some trains did not stop at every station and only stopped at London Marylebone. Therefore I was not able to go back to South Ruislip. I only realised this once the announcement was made on the train, and did not encounter a ticket officer on the train to explain.

Upon arrival at Marylebone, I put my Beaconsfield to South Ruislip ticket into the machine, and when the machine rejected my ticket, I tapped out using my debit card intending to find an alternate route home once past the barrier.

However as I walked away from the barrier a ticket officer ran up to me asking to see the ticket I had used. After I explained the situation to him, he took my ticket from me and wrote up a Travel Incident Report. I told him that I had no intention of fare evasion.

I was wondering what to expect from this point on, and what kind of trouble I am in. I am panicking a bit about getting a criminal record for a small mistake, and the enforcement officer didn't really explain any of the procedures beyond to expect a letter in a few months.

Any guidance would be much appreciated!

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

Some questions/observations:

If you needed to travel back to South Ruislip why did you need to go through the gateline at Marylebone?
Why didn't you just board the next train to South Ruislip?
What alternative route were you intending to take?
Why didn't you ask a member of staff at the gateline for advice on what to do?

 

[Thundercat]

Welcome to the forum.

Some questions/observations:

If you needed to travel back to South Ruislip why did you need to go through the gateline at Marylebone?
Why didn't you just board the next train to South Ruislip?
What alternative route were you intending to take?
Why didn't you ask a member of staff at the gateline for advice on what to do?

Hi, thanks for getting back to me. The end of my journey was actually Wood Lane/White City - I had travelled from there to South Ruislip in the morning using my debit card, as it was in the TFL travel zones. Therefore I intended to just get on the underground from Marylebone rather than go back to South Ruislip and back again to Wood Lane.

I didn't speak to a member of staff as with a cursary look around I didn't see anyone and to be honest I was feeling very frustrated at my mistake and the additional time my journey would take as a result, so I just wanted to get on and go. Not an excuse, and I can definitely see why the enforcement agent would find it suspicious! It wasn't something I would do again!

 

[CrispyUK]

Hadders has asked the same questions I was going to, you’d probably have been far better staying within the station and boarding the next northbound departure to South Ruislip to fix this.

You may also wind up getting an incomplete journey charged to your card, as you’ve tapped out using contactless without having tapped in anywhere for a fare to be calculated.

 

[Thundercat]

Hadders has asked the same questions I was going to, you’d probably have been far better staying within the station and boarding the next northbound departure to South Ruislip to fix this.

You may also wind up getting an incomplete journey charged to your card, as you’ve tapped out using contactless without having tapped in anywhere for a fare to be calculated.

Yeah, in hindsight that would've been much better, I really wish I had. Like I said to Hadders, I was feeling frustrated and just wanted to get home!

 

[Hadders]

You will probably get a letter from Chiltern Railways or a company working on their behalf stating that they believe they have sufficient evidence to prosecute you but asking for your version of events before deciding whether or not to do so. These letters often take a number of weeks to come through.

It is important that you engage and reply to this letter. I suggest writing a short, concise letter mentioning the following:

That you are sorry for what has happened
What you have learned from the incident
That you are keen to settle the matter before without the matter proceeding to court
That you would be willing to pay the outstanding fare plus the rail company's administrative costs in dealing with the issue

Technically there is no outstanding fare as you will have been charged for an incomplete journey on your debit card which is likely be far higher than the difference in fare between Marylebone to Beaconsfield (which is what you should have paid) and South Ruislip to Beaconsfield (the fare you actually paid). On balance I probably wouldn't argue about this at this point.

If you look through some threads on this section of the forum you will come across similar cases. Most train companies will usually offer an administrative settlement if you engage with the process for around £100 plus the outstanding fare.

Do come back to us once you receive the letter and we will be happy to offer further advice. Many members on here will also be glad to proof read your reply.

 

[Thundercat]

You will probably get a letter from Chiltern Railways or a company working on their behalf stating that they believe they have sufficient evidence to prosecute you but asking for your version of events before deciding whether or not to do so. These letters often take a number of weeks to come through.

It is important that you engage and reply to this letter. I suggest writing a short, concise letter mentioning the following:

That you are sorry for what has happened
What you have learned from the incident
That you are keen to settle the matter before without the matter proceeding to court
That you would be willing to pay the outstanding fare plus the rail company's administrative costs in dealing with the issue

Technically there is no outstanding fare as you will have been charged for an incomplete journey on your debit card which is likely be far higher than the difference in fare between Marylebone to Beaconsfield (which is what you should have paid) and South Ruislip to Beaconsfield (the fare you actually paid). On balance I probably wouldn't argue about this at this point.

If you look through some threads on this section of the forum you will come across similar cases. Most train companies will usually offer an administrative settlement if you engage with the process for around £100 plus the outstanding fare.

Do come back to us once you receive the letter and we will be happy to offer further advice. Many members on here will also be glad to proof read your reply.

Thanks for the advice, that is reassuring - at least now I know what to expect! In this letter should I also explain the situation and that it was an honest mistake (i.e. Present my excuses?) or simply swallow it and accept that I will be fined, and ask for leniancy (i.e. Settling out of court)?

Thanks again

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for the advice, that is reassuring - at least now I know what to expect! In this letter should I also explain the situation and that it was an honest mistake (i.e. Present my excuses?) or simply swallow it and accept that I will be fined, and ask for leniancy (i.e. Settling out of court)?

Thanks again

Unfortunately the train company holds the aces in that they could just refer the case to court. The law requires you to have a valid ticket for your journey and you did not have one. An honest mistake is no defence in law, unfortunately.

Hopefully you will be able to negotiate an administrative settlement with the train company which will keep the matter out of court. My view is it's best to be upfront about what happened, by all means mention that you make a mistake but do not give them a sob story, they will have heard it all before. I think it will be looked upon more favourably if you are seen to be taking responsibility.

Just a pedantic note. Only a court can issue a fine so if you are able to negotiate a settlement with the train company it is not a fine, although it feels like one!

 

[Thundercat]

Unfortunately the train company holds the aces in that they could just refer the case to court. The law requires you to have a valid ticket for your journey and you did not have one. An honest mistake is no defence in law, unfortunately.

Hopefully you will be able to negotiate an administrative settlement with the train company which will keep the matter out of court. My view is it's best to be upfront about what happened, by all means mention that you make a mistake but do not give them a sob story, they will have heard it all before. I think it will be looked upon more favourably if you are seen to be taking responsibility.

Just a pedantic note. Only a court can issue a fine so if you are able to negotiate a settlement with the train company it is not a fine, although it feels like one!

OK, I will outline what happened and keep the emotion out of it. Thanks for all the advice, it is really appreciated! This is not something I ever thought I would have to deal with, so it was all a bit of a shock

 

[Thomas31]

If it was me, I just would’ve ignored any gate line staff, once your through the gates your through, just keep on walking. The odds of them trying to stop you are nil.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If it was me, I just would’ve ignored any gate line staff, once your through the gates your through, just keep on walking. The odds of them trying to stop you are nil.

Unfortunately revenue protection officers primarily prey on those who are compliant enough to stop when asked to do so. Those who don't give a rat's arse about RPIs won't get in any trouble unless the police are waiting around the corner.

OP was "too" honest in this case and so they will now end up propping up Chiltern's/TIL's profits.

 

[furlong]

If there were no staff obviously present at the barrier to sort out what to do, and you have a charge on the contactless card that exceeds the excess you needed to pay for the journey you actually made, you might consider arguing that no further payment is due and that by accepting the contactless payment the company already regularised the situation.

 

[Thomas31]

Unfortunately revenue protection officers primarily prey on those who are compliant enough to stop when asked to do so. Those who don't give a rat's arse about RPIs won't get in any trouble unless the police are waiting around the corner.

OP was "too" honest in this case and so they will now end up propping up Chiltern's/TIL's profits.

I would stop if I had any confidence in being treated fairly and not being subjected to the overzealous Transport Investigation Limited...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If there were no staff obviously present at the barrier to sort out what to do, and you have a charge on the contactless card that exceeds the excess you needed to pay for the journey you actually made, you might consider arguing that no further payment is due and that by accepting the contactless payment the company already regularised the situation.

Of course the difficulty is that there's an excess fares window at the right hand side of the barrier line and TIL/Chiltern will no doubt argue that that should have been approached, even though it's entirely inconspicuous if walking towards the barriers off platforms 1/2.

 

[Tentx]

If the case gets passed to Transport Investigations Limited.... they are absolutely awful and do not take into consideration when a person makes an honest mistake (I speak from past experience....)

However there’s nothing that can be done until you get that initial letter from them! If the worst case scenario happens and TIL reject your explanation of it being an honest mistake, feel free to send me a message and I’ll let you know what the next steps TIL will take/what they’ll say and advice my solicitor gave me

 

[furlong]

Of course the difficulty is that there's an excess fares window at the right hand side of the barrier line and TIL/Chiltern will no doubt argue that that should have been approached, even though it's entirely inconspicuous if walking towards the barriers off platforms 1/2.

Even so, if (and we don't know this) more money was paid than necessary, why should a court get involved with what might amount to technicalities ('trifles')?

 

[some bloke]

I put my Beaconsfield to South Ruislip ticket into the machine

I intended to just get on the underground from Marylebone

I didn't speak to a member of staff as with a cursary look around I didn't see anyone...very frustrated at my mistake and the additional time...so I just wanted to get on and go. Not an excuse

it was an honest mistake

I hope you'll forgive me if I've misunderstood. Did you tell them you put the ticket in but not that you intended to pay the excess if it worked? If so, why wouldn't they think your intention when putting it in (even if for a moment) was not to pay for that part of the journey?

How long a delay to get home were you expecting, if the fast train was earlier and you queued five minutes to pay the excess?

 

[some bloke]

I understand your frustration at going to central London unnecessarily and facing delay/uncertainty and higher fares.

You could write or make an audio recording today of what you were thinking (and/or not thinking!) in case it helps, as it might be a few months before you hear anything, and memories can fade faster than we expect.

 

[Thundercat]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I understand your frustration at going to central London unnecessarily and facing delay/uncertainty and higher fares.

You could write or make an audio recording today of what you were thinking (and/or not thinking!) in case it helps, as it might be a few months before you hear anything, and memories can fade faster than we expect.

As you seemed to have guessed it really was a case of not thinking! It didn't cross my mind that my ticket wasn't going to cover that section of the journey, I was only thinking about getting on and getting home. As you have said, I really didn't want to have come into central London, and wasn't entirely sure of my route back at that point, so wasn't sure how long I'd be delayed.

That, coupled with no obvious staff near me and not wanting to stand around next to a busy barrier (the lack of social distancing around there was definitely on my mind!) meant that I thought it would just get through and get on.

Like I said, absolutely thoughtless!

 

[Haywain]

Just a pedantic note. Only a court can issue a fine so if you are able to negotiate a settlement with the train company it is not a fine, although it feels like one!

Just a pedantic (and slightly off topic) note: Many organisations can and do impose fines on their members. However, it is true to say that a train company cannot impose a fine.

 

[221129]

If it was me, I just would’ve ignored any gate line staff, once your through the gates your through, just keep on walking. The odds of them trying to stop you are nil.

That would be extremely poor advice.

 

[Thomas31]

That would be extremely poor advice.

I disagree, if it’s a choice between months of worry waiting for a potential letter of prosecution or the negligible risk of being ambushed by a hiding copper, I think I’ll take the risk and not engage with the gate line staff...

 

[WesternLancer]

In order to prep for what you will have to do next :

Make a clear record of what happened, what you were doing, what you did or didn't notice whilst fresh in your mind.

Check your bank card records etc for any debits taken for tickets, make a note of them or copy them. Compare these with the fares you would have had to pay for the travel carried out and note it all down.

This will help you follow the good advice in this thread.

 

[Haywain]

I disagree, if it’s a choice between months of worry waiting for a potential letter of prosecution or the negligible risk of being ambushed by a hiding copper, I think I’ll take the risk and not engage with the gate line staff...

Just because you would do it doesn't make it good advice.

 

[Thomas31]

Just because you would do it doesn't make it good advice.

If I had any confidence in being treated fairly for a genuine mistake I would stop and engage, even pay the penalty fare, but to be threatened with prosecution? Nah, I’m sorry but I have other things to worry about than having to deal with the heavy handed TIL!

 

[SargeNpton]

After you heard the on-board announcement about station stops was this immediately on leaving Beaconsfield, or was it only after the train departed that last station prior to Marylebone? If it was on leaving Beaconsfield, why did you not get off at one of the intermediate stops (such as Gerrards Cross) to wait for the next train that did call at South Ruislip?

This may be one of the questions that Chiltern could ask you in determining your actions and intents.

 

[Thundercat]

After you heard the on-board announcement about station stops was this immediately on leaving Beaconsfield, or was it only after the train departed that last station prior to Marylebone? If it was on leaving Beaconsfield, why did you not get off at one of the intermediate stops (such as Gerrards Cross) to wait for the next train that did call at South Ruislip?

This may be one of the questions that Chiltern could ask you in determining your actions and intents.

This is not a line that is very familiar to me, so I didn’t notice there was a problem until we left Gerrard’s Cross and the announcement said ‘next stop is London Marylebone‘ or something to that effect. At that point I realised that Gerrard’s Cross wasn’t simply one stop on the way through the full slow train route.

This whole thing has definitely taught me that it’s important to pay attention to the announcements though, and not to get on a train without making absolutely sure you know what the stops are!

 

[30907]

Just to put your mind at rest: even if this gets to court any conviction will be spent after 12 months.

 

[some bloke]

Gerrard’s Cross

Try to make sure that when you write to the company, you're being clear about everything.

not realising that some trains did not stop at every station and only stopped at London Marylebone.

 

[Thundercat]

Just to put your mind at rest: even if this gets to court any conviction will be spent after 12 months.

Even so, I really would rather avoid that at all costs.