Misuse of Spouse travel Pass

[LCC106]

I feel you haven’t had the best support.

 

[theironroad]

You should withdraw it! Dismissal was only one possible outcome, and even if you were dismissed you would have had the appeal process to get try and get it reviewed.

I know I'm only one example but, even if the worst did happen, being dismissed doesn't mean that you'll never work again. I was dismissed for gross misconduct with the appeal process concluded by the first week of January and was in a new, better, job by the first week of that March. (And had to turn down another job offer!)


With all due to respect - there are other, possibly better, union reps out there!

Withdrawing a resignation isn't always possible, depends on how willing they are and obviously in what format it's been done.

Tbh, I'd probably go sick at this point as the whole situation seems to have (understandably) stressed "Hanson".

Personally, I think resigning was the wrong course of action and tbh by this point I'd not be bothered what the rep has to say.

It is your job your fighting for at the end of the day and as many have said on here, the rep seemed to be disinterested.

Did the meeting even go ahead?

 

[LCC106]

I think a lot of genuine people have invested time and effort to try to assist you, so naturally we are disappointed that you feel you had no other option than to resign. However, it may well be that you felt that was your only option and we have to recognise that. Jobseekers Allowance (or whatever the current name for it is) isn’t usually granted for people who have resigned but I would urge you to make a claim as soon as possible - today if possible - as your national insurance contributions should be covered from the moment you make a claim. Otherwise, treat job seeking like a full time occupation now. Wishing you the best.

 

[Tallguy]

As I couldn’t provide strong evidence he was requesting for like what action did I take to stop the misuse and so on the rep just made me feel it not worth fighting for

There are other and better union reps. You had plenty of choice and you now say you are shattered and depressed.

I don’t know if you can but I suggest you withdraw your resignation and fight this, although having put your resignation in you have effectively shown your employer that you do not wish to hear what they have to say. There is a good chance you could have kept your job. No one forced you to resign and it wasn’t your only option. You didn’t even ask for a adjournment to seek further advice.

I hope the union rep is proud of themselves and I hope those who portrayed such a negative picture on here are equally proud of what they posted.

Good luck with whatever you do, if your spouse goes to court and has to repay the £8k, good luck doing that on only 1 salary if you don’t have big savings. Some banks do low rate interest loans at present, the NHS has a credit union, sadly you probably can’t use any of the rail industry credit unions as you are no longer working on the railway.

In my considered opinion you have made exactly the wrong decision, you didn’t even try to fight this.

So, no income and no state benefits as you resigned, I hope you can still pay your bills. Tesco and Amazon are hiring, they may well offer you something short term before you can get something more suitable but with 800 applicants going for some jobs, you could be out of work for some time sadly.

But good luck to you nonetheless.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Sir, I think you have done the right thing. At the end of the day, you left on your terms, and although you are clearly now without that job, you can hopefully put that incident behind you and focus on your future. Regardless of what people on a web forum think, (and noting that they fully encouraged you to follow your union advice, until that advice was at odds with their own opinion), going through a gross misconduct disciplinary leaves permanent scars, and it is rarely a happy career afterwards, unless you are totally vindicated.

I am quite sure you will be able to rely on your previous employer for a generic, neutral reference which will be very helpful going forward.

 

[Mak1981]

Evidence may have helped you "get off" with it, but even with no evidence and found to have committed gross misconduct that wouldn't have been simply a dismissal, again it would all have went down to your relationship with manager etc there would have been a fair chance of a sanction short of dismissal if you are normally a decent hard working employee who has made an isolated mistake.

 

[theironroad]

I think a lot of genuine people have invested time and effort to try to assist you, so naturally we are disappointed that you feel you had no other option than to resign. However, it may well be that you felt that was your only option and we have to recognise that. Jobseekers Allowance (or whatever the current name for it is) isn’t usually granted for people who have resigned but I would urge you to make a claim as soon as possible - today if possible - as your national insurance contributions should be covered from the moment you make a claim. Otherwise, treat job seeking like a full time occupation now. Wishing you the best.

I'm not sure if they have resigned with immediate effect or just tendered notice to resign.

If it's the latter,then some TOCs have. 3 month notice period for drivers, so in normal circumstances they'd be expected to work that.

However, I assume the gross misconduct process could proceed anyway within the resignation period if they are not sick, so maybe they have resigned with immediate effect although not sure how that would play out in a reference.

Fair to say, it's all a mess.

Evidence may have helped you "get off" with it, but even with no evidence and found to have committed gross misconduct that wouldn't have been simply a dismissal, again it would all have went down to your relationship with manager etc there would have been a fair chance of a sanction short of dismissal if you are normally a decent hard working employee who has made an isolated mistake.

Exactly, most TOCs don't want to lose expensively trained drivers if they don't have to.

They seem apologetic and while acted a bit late, seem to want to make recompense.

If this was the only blemish on record, either personnel or safety of line record, then there could have been sanctions short of dismissal.

Guess we'll never know now.

 

[Tallguy]

I'm not sure if they have resigned with immediate effect or just tendered notice to resign.

If it's the latter,then some TOCs have. 3 month notice period for drivers, so in normal circumstances they'd be expected to work that.

However, I assume the gross misconduct process could proceed anyway within the resignation period if they are not sick, so maybe they have resigned with immediate effect although not sure how that would play out in a reference.

Fair to say, it's all a mess.

I am unsure if the OP is a driver, but the law of the land over rules any contract. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a gardening leave clause in the contract or PILON. You are indeed correct that disciplinary proceedings can still be applied during a notice period so the OP could still face dismissal having resigned - that happened to a non rail industry colleague of mine who had resigned and was then sacked part way through his notice period. Let’s hope it isn’t applied if the resignation isn’t summary or hope the notice is dealt with under PILON.

I have to say it would be unfortunate if the OP had to now fight a hearing for GM having replied but it is entirely possible.

Under the circumstances asking for PILON if not under summary termination may be the best bet. At least the OP will be clear to go and get something else immediately. If the OP has to work the notice period and they feel mentally unable to, then they may wish to seek medical help from their GP or other healthcare professional.

 

[Hanson]

I feel bad and I think it’s really worth the fight!
Guy you might misinterpret what I meant I only just asked for my union rep to ask if the manager would accept my resignation and he came back and said yes.

I have now told them I will go ahead with the hearing tomorrow
I have been on the phone with my rep all this while and he’s just been unsupportive and only asking the I provide proof that I have done all I could to stop this misuse which he knows I haven’t got, what proof could I provide when I was in a bad state in a Rocky marriage and infact I had to since to have detected any misuse was made on the pass

 

[Tallguy]

I feel bad and I think it’s really worth the fight!
Guy you might misinterpret what I meant I only just asked for my union rep to ask if the manager would accept my resignation and he came back and said yes.

I have now told them I will go ahead with the hearing tomorrow
I have been on the phone with my rep all this while and he’s just been unsupportive and only asking the I provide proof that I have done all I could to stop this misuse which he knows I haven’t got, what proof could I provide when I was in a bad state in a Rocky marriage and infact I had to since to have detected any misuse was made on the pass

Hanson, you said in a previous post “I have had to put my resignation in this morning, my rep keeps saying it’s the only way to get a clean record as he doesn’t see any other come from this other than a dismissal” and you are now telling us you asked the rep who hasn’t supported you to go to your manager and ask if he/she would accept your resignation And that the hearing is now going ahead tomorrow???

So now your manager knows you intend to resign but you are going to fight the hearing?

Forum members have bent over backwards to help and offer support. You are now posting mixed messages. If you intend to resign then why are you bothering fighting the hearing?

Something here isn’t adding up. An employer can’t refuse your resignation Under almost all circumstances.

 

[357]

I'm confused. You speak to me on the phone and you want to fight, then you speak to your rep and tell me you want to resign.

I was up until 1am writing a defence and final statement for your hearing - and now you have resigned?

Along with the evidence you sent me - I thought you had at least a 50% chance of keeping your job.

 

[WesternLancer]

I feel bad and I think it’s really worth the fight!
Guy you might misinterpret what I meant I only just asked for my union rep to ask if the manager would accept my resignation and he came back and said yes.

I have now told them I will go ahead with the hearing tomorrow
I have been on the phone with my rep all this while and he’s just been unsupportive and only asking the I provide proof that I have done all I could to stop this misuse which he knows I haven’t got, what proof could I provide when I was in a bad state in a Rocky marriage and infact I had to since to have detected any misuse was made on the pass

Well, I'm pleased to hear this - if you can't get a different Rep I'd be tempted to ask the Rep to accompany you - and take note of what happens and advise you on any key points of failed procedure - but to allow you to conduct your own defence based on the good advice of what to say and how to do this on this thread posted by people like @357 and others.

But take care in your prep - your earlier post today (post #176) was misleading to readers here (hence your helpful correction) so do your best to not say anything misleading by mistake at your hearing - and once again - good luck!

Your manager saying they "would accept your resignation" is of minor note - but most would say "yes" to that question unless the whole running of the organisation where you work would be imperiled by you resigning, but with the best will in the world if that was the case you'd probably have a good lawyer at your beck and call 24 hours a day as you would be a very senior member of staff indeed and my hunch is that is probably not the case (not wishing to diss the valuable job you do, whatever that is - transport workers have been really key people in my personal view during this pandemic - and in general anyway)

 

[Hanson]

Hanson, you said in a previous post “I have had to put my resignation in this morning, my rep keeps saying it’s the only way to get a clean record as he doesn’t see any other come from this other than a dismissal” and you are now telling us you asked the rep who hasn’t supported you to go to your manager and ask if he/she would accept your resignation And that the hearing is now going ahead tomorrow???

So now your manager knows you intend to resign but you are going to fight the hearing?

Forum members have bent over backwards to help and offer support. You are now posting mixed messages. If you intend to resign then why are you bothering fighting the hearing?

Something here isn’t adding up. An employer can’t refuse your resignation Under almost all circumstances.

The rep asked me to put it in an email so he can ask the manager if my resignation would be accepted, the rep is keen that I resign with given much support to defend me
He has now returned saying the manager agrees to accept resignation but I will have to put it in a formal writing if I don’t want the hearing to go on which are within my rights ... this is why I have decided to keep up with the fight till the end

 

[Tallguy]

The rep asked me to put it in an email so he can ask the manager if my resignation would be accepted, the rep is keen that I resign with given much support to defend me
He has now returned saying the manager agrees to accept resignation but I will have to put it in a formal writing if I don’t want the hearing to go on which are within my rights ... this is why I have decided to keep up with the fight till the end

That is totally different to what you posted previously.

You say the rep is keen that you resign. Why did you e mail the union rep and ask them To ask your manager if they would accept your resignation? Your resignation is nothing to do with the union, apart from the fact they kept telling you to quit.

Something here doesn’t add up. If your manager now knows you intend to resign then they have an upper hand at the ’hearing tomorrow’.

 

[theironroad]

That is totally different to what you posted previously.

You say the rep is keen that you resign. Why did you e mail the union rep and ask them To ask your manager if they would accept your resignation? Your resignation is nothing to do with the union, apart from the fact they kept telling you to quit.

Something here doesn’t add up. If your manager now knows you intend to resign then they have an upper hand at the ’hearing tomorrow’.

Tbh, the whole thing is becoming confusing.

Good luck OP in whatever course of action you decide to take.

I am unsure if the OP is a driver, but the law of the land over rules any contract. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a gardening leave clause in the contract or PILON. You are indeed correct that disciplinary proceedings can still be applied during a notice period so the OP could still face dismissal having resigned - that happened to a non rail industry colleague of mine who had resigned and was then sacked part way through his notice period. Let’s hope it isn’t applied if the resignation isn’t summary or hope the notice is dealt with under PILON.

I have to say it would be unfortunate if the OP had to now fight a hearing for GM having replied but it is entirely possible.

Under the circumstances asking for PILON if not under summary termination may be the best bet. At least the OP will be clear to go and get something else immediately. If the OP has to work the notice period and they feel mentally unable to, then they may wish to seek medical help from their GP or other healthcare professional.

Just had a skim of the thread and for the life of me can't work out why I thought they are a driver, as can't see any reference to what job they do apart from working for a TOC. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Darandio]

I'm confused. You speak to me on the phone and you want to fight, then you speak to your rep and tell me you want to resign.

I was up until 1am writing a defence and final statement for your hearing - and now you have resigned?

Along with the evidence you sent me - I thought you had at least a 50% chance of keeping your job.

Was the phonecall more believeable/genuine than the posts they have made on here, particularly the most recent ones? Because I surely can't be the only one that has their spidey sense tingling about it all.

 

[MotCO]

I sense that Hanson was just testing the water with regards to resignation. You may be asked why you thought about resigning - you need to say that this was based on the advice from your union rep.

With regards to 'hard evidence', it is difficult to provide this. You may find some texts which show the bad relationship for example, but failing that, all you need to do is describe the state of your marriage and other factors so as sow seeds of doubts in the minds of the panel, so that they will stop short of dismissing you.

[One further question has occured to me which the panel may ask. When did your wife start using the pass for commuting - was this before or after your marriage deteriorated? If before, you need to think about why you were not aware, why you did not stop it etc. Again, you do should not post this answer]

 

[Tallguy]

I sense that Hanson was just testing the water with regards to resignation. You may be asked why you thought about resigning - you need to say that this was based on the advice from your union rep.

Hanson stated they had resigned.

 

[MikeWh]

This thread is generating some strong emotions, not least from the OP themselves. Some of the condemnation of posts made this afternoon have crossed the line IMO. Unless you've actually been in the situation that the OP finds themselves in then I would ask that you keep criticism of their posts to yourselves. If you've been in private conversation with the OP and feel let down then please express that via the same private methods.

From here onwards I only expect to see constructive advice relating to the next immediate stage in the proceedings.

 

[Hanson]

Hanson stated they had resigned.

I haven’t, after my conversation with the rep over the phone, he’s then told me decide what you want to do but I suggest you resign because it’s an uphill battle, in his own words. He said I chose resign or still go for hearing



then if I do decide to resign he will check with the manager of she would accept it

hence this mail I sent, the rep is really making decisions hard for me and along his line strongly doesn’t want to have the hearing to continue

I haven’t, after my conversation with the rep over the phone, he’s then told me decide what you want to do but I suggest you resign because it’s an uphill battle, in his own words. He said I chose resign or still go for hearing



then if I do decide to resign he will check with the manager of she would accept it

hence this mail I sent, the rep is really making decisions hard for me and along his line strongly doesn’t want to have the hearing to continue

This was sent to my rep... as the support I’m getting from him is not encouraging.

he then got back and said yes, manager is willing to accept my resignation if I do decide to and not want to continue with the hearing but need to send a formal letter directly to her instead

 

[MissPWay]

Regardless of what people on a web forum think, (and noting that they fully encouraged you to follow your union advice, until that advice was at odds with their own opinion), going through a gross misconduct disciplinary leaves permanent scars, and it is rarely a happy career afterwards, unless you are totally vindicated.

I am quite sure you will be able to rely on your previous employer for a generic, neutral reference which will be very helpful going forward.

That is totally different to what you posted previously.

You say the rep is keen that you resign. Why did you e mail the union rep and ask them To ask your manager if they would accept your resignation? Your resignation is nothing to do with the union, apart from the fact they kept telling you to quit.

Something here doesn’t add up. If your manager now knows you intend to resign then they have an upper hand at the ’hearing tomorrow’.

Was the phonecall more believeable/genuine than the posts they have made on here, particularly the most recent ones? Because I surely can't be the only one that has their spidey sense tingling about it all.

Fully agree with all of this.

However, it’s the OP’s decision to make.

They seem bizarrely reluctant to go to a higher level within the Union for more advice, and I would point out that “useless,” union reps usually get voted out, assuming they make it that far to begin with.

Resignation is certainly the safer option, whatever you think morally etc. I trust all the people urging the OP to fight will be there to offer some support when they are barred from working within the industry?

The rail industry is constantly recruiting, maybe not in the position you have now (whatever that even is) But as someone with experience and a theoretically clean record the door isn’t closed.

I wish you (op) the best of luck and hope this is resolved promptly so you can start to move on. Remember when you look back in a year or so it certainly won’t seem as bad as it does at the moment.

 

[Haywain]

I'd be tempted to ask the Rep to accompany you - and take note of what happens and advise you on any key points of failed procedure - but to allow you to conduct your own defence based on the good advice of what to say and how to do this on this thread.

And I would strongly advise against this. Take a rep, and let the rep do their job. Even though it is clear that the rep doesn't think there is much in the way of defence or mitigation, they have had training in this which the OP hasn't.

 

[WesternLancer]

Fully agree with all of this.

However, it’s the OP’s decision to make.

They seem bizarrely reluctant to go to a higher level within the Union for more advice, and I would point out that “useless,” union reps usually get voted out, assuming they make it that far to begin with.

Resignation is certainly the safer option, whatever you think morally etc. I trust all the people urging the OP to fight will be there to offer some support when they are barred from working within the industry?

The rail industry is constantly recruiting, maybe not in the position you have now (whatever that even is) But as someone with experience and a theoretically clean record the door isn’t closed.

I wish you (op) the best of luck and hope this is resolved promptly so you can start to move on. Remember when you look back in a year or so it certainly won’t seem as bad as it does at the moment.

I can't recall the post as the thread is now long and I'm not going back through it to double check - but I think the OP did contact the Union at another level but didn't get very far - but given MikeWh's important post I'm not sure much point getting in to that at this stage now.

 

[AntoniC]

I haven’t, after my conversation with the rep over the phone, he’s then told me decide what you want to do but I suggest you resign because it’s an uphill battle, in his own words. He said I chose resign or still go for hearing



then if I do decide to resign he will check with the manager of she would accept it

hence this mail I sent, the rep is really making decisions hard for me and along his line strongly doesn’t want to have the hearing to continue


This was sent to my rep... as the support I’m getting from him is not encouraging.

he then got back and said yes, manager is willing to accept my resignation if I do decide to and not want to continue with the hearing but need to send a formal letter directly to her instead

The cynic in me thinks that both your manager and Union Rep are happy for you to resign as it gets rid of an awkward situation for them .
The ultimate decision though is yours to make - as others have said being charged with gross misconduct does not mean your guilty ( I should know I was charged with Gross Misconduct and won therefore keeping my job).
Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

 

[Haywain]

I trust all the people urging the OP to fight will be there to offer some support when they are barred from working within the industry?

I have never heard of anyone being barred from working 'within the industry'. In fact I am aware of cases of people who have been dismissed from roles in the rail industry and have found employment elsewhere in the industry, and externally. That doesn't mean it will be easy, but it isn't impossible.

 

[Hanson]

I spoke to other reps but they all didn’t help much and only told me to talk to my local rep, I even went as far as speak to a rep with another union which I was also part of but not long enough for them to represent me and he went on to discussing my case with the other rep guy which was really awkward for me and how come two rep of different union are discussing about my case that should be confidential!?
My rep just keeping saying a Clause 9 is a sack and that’s all I keep hearing from him
No encouragement at all but advice to just resign, hence why my thoughts towards the hearing is so gloomy

 

[Tallguy]

I haven’t,

at 13.11 today Hanson you posted “I have had to put my resignation in this morning” that to me is resigning.

If you indeed haven’t resigned and are going in to the hearing tomorrow to fight this then good. This can be fought and won. Like others, I do not believe taking the union rep in with you will do any good, particularly as they are advising you to resign and your manager now knows that you are ready to resign. I feel you have dug yourself into a deeper hole with this course of action and that the union have badly advised you. Very badly. I would jettison them.

However, this is far, far from over. I suggest you go back through this thread and look at the suggestions posted by myself and others on how you can answer the no doubt awkward questions that will be thrown at you tomorrow. You have had a phone call with one member of this forum who appears to have provided you with additional support and some form of notes etc to help you (well done To that forum member) and I have no doubt that info will help You no end.

I don’t know if these hearings are recorded, or if you can make a recording of the proceedings - I always did with mine although pulling out your iPhone and saying you are going to make a recording May add fuel to the fire. You can certainly take notes And I suggest you do Exactly that.

Above all, be calm, be contrite and remember the aim is to come out with your job intact. Rehearse what you are going to say, be honest and I hope you get a good result.

My final post on this thread until we are informed of a result.

 

[Rockhopper]

If you resign you'll still have to come up with a plausible reason as to why you did that when you apply for new jobs (not as easy as it sounds - I've been there, luckily my old boss gave me a good reference and actually asked me what he should tell my prospective new employer). You also run the risk that it might be mentioned on any reference that you resigned whilst the subject of an ongoing disciplinary case.
I'd stick with it and see what happens at the hearing.

 

[MissPWay]

“Jettisoning” your union would be a very bad move.

Your union rep will know you, they will know (presumably) all the details of the case. They will have some sort of working relationship with your managers and the people conducting the hearing. They will probably have dealt with similar cases with the same people conducting your hearing.

They will be in a better place to help you then some uninformed but well meaning people on an Internet forum.

You’re not obliged to follow their advice to resign, but if you decide to follow the hearing route it would be very very unwise not to take them into the hearing with you and let them deal with your defence.

There’s a compelling reason even innocent people have legal representation at police interviews for example.

 

[ukkid]

Well a lot of posts on here were talking about employment records as if that's a thing.

Yet in all likelihood of a reference confirming anything more than dates of employment was what the OP would have received, regardless what type of employee. No organisation wants to risk the hassle of being sued (even if it's doomed to failure)or reveal their internal procedures. Most firms don't want to spend a lot of resources writing up references for ex employees nor deal with protracted correspondence .

Edit.
This idea of accepting or refusing a resignation is a myth or misnomer. A resignation cannot be refused, we all have the right to end an employment contract. An employer only has a cause of action if you don't work out any notice period in the contract.

I also think there was some poor advice telling the OP not to seek independent legal advice and persist with his union. The union and it's reps have their own interests and that of their other members not that just of one employee.