MK1 SO vs TSO

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by alexl92, 17 Apr 2015.

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  1. alexl92

    alexl92 Established Member

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    Can anyone explain what, if any, difference there was between a Tourist Second Open and an ordinary Second Open under BR?

    Cheers!
     
  2. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    Was one built as second class (with 2+1, rather than 2+2 seating) for continental boat trains when there were still officially three classes?

    I read this was the case but can't remember what the carriage types were classified as.
     
  3. richa2002

    richa2002 Established Member

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  4. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

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    AFAIK, an SO had 2+1 seating, a TSO 2+2 (but remember that once upon a time there were three classes - 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Eventually 2nd was abolished, and 3rd was renamed as 2nd, then renamed again as Standard).
     
  5. D6975

    D6975 Established Member

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    I think that mk1 SOs were originally intended to be used as second class dining cars.
     
  6. matchmaker

    matchmaker Member

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    But I'm fairly certain that no Mk 1s were built for the few services that still had 3 classes*. They were 1st class or 3rd class, and 3rd class was simply renamed 2nd class.

    TSO was an LNER designation.


    *Cathcart Circle, North London? Will have to check The LMS Coach.
     
  7. 30907

    30907 Established Member

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    And very nice they were IIRC (vague recollections of them on cross country mid 70s).
    Wikipedia says the Boat 2nds were different, with the central doors opening into a seating bay, so slightly more legroom. There were early mk2 SOs as well.
     
  8. alexl92

    alexl92 Established Member

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    Ahhhhh so is that why some Mk1s have the door half way down and others dont?
     
  9. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

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    Yes, in the 1970's the cross-country services (or NE-SW as they tended to be called back then) were a real mixture of MK1 TSOs and compartment stock, with a some SOs thrown in for good measure. I got the feeling sometimes that what actually turned up had more to do with what was fit-to-run on the day than what was nominally diagrammed. All vacuum braked and steam heated, of course ;)

    I think occasionally the SOs confused passengers into thinking they were in First Class, since the 2+1 seating layout was the same as in an FO, whereas a TSO was obviously different.
     
    Last edited: 18 Apr 2015
  10. PaxmanValenta

    PaxmanValenta Member

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    TSO coaches have 2 + 2 seating often with partitions each half of the coach and centre doors.
    Older versions had varnished wood wall panels. Some versions even had wallpaper on the sides of the coach.
     
  11. Pigeon

    Pigeon Member

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    Worcester-Paddington services on a Sunday night were like that too. Mostly compartments and TSOs but anything might turn up somewhere in the formation. Steam leaking out of the heating connections that somehow managed to look cold, and knackered carriage lighting batteries so that when they sat for 20 minutes at Moreton-in-Marsh the lights would be getting dimmer and dimmer and sometimes be not far short of going out entirely before we set off again and the dynamo kicked in.

    I used to think the SOs that occasionally turned up were Firsts that had been permanently declassified long enough ago that they'd been re-upholstered in second class type moquette. I didn't find either them or the genuine temporarily-declassified Firsts particularly comfortable, but I think that was mainly down to me being too small for the seats at the time :)
     
  12. D6975

    D6975 Established Member

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    Some SOs in later days were declassified FOs. They were renumbered as well IIRC. 36xx number series rings a bell...
     
  13. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    I would disagree. There's a picture of one at Folkestone East in the book "Ashford to Dover" in Middleton Press' Southern Mainline series.
     
  14. AndyW33

    AndyW33 Member

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    You can always tell the difference between a "real" SO and a downgraded FO - SOs have 8 seating bays, just like the much more common TSOs but with 48 seats instead of 64, FOs have 7 bays and 42 seats.
    It is right that the SOs were built to run in dining sets. Quite often there might be an FO one side of a full kitchen car or RKB, and an SO the other side.
    There were also the Boat Train coaches built in the days when these still had three classes to match with those on the other side of the Channel, but only 15 of these were built as against nearly 200 of the ordinary SOs.
     
  15. matchmaker

    matchmaker Member

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    I sit corrected!:)
     
  16. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    How did they make third class different from second class?
     
  17. 30907

    30907 Established Member

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    The Boat Open Seconds will have had fractionally more legroom as well as 3 across seating -bear in mind too that BR(S) TKs had 4 a side compartments.
     
  18. Helvellyn

    Helvellyn Member

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    The Boat Train coaches, S3500-S3514, had eight bays of 2+1 seating, but the centre door opened into one of the bays, hence the slightly more available leg room.

    These were the 'true' SO's, as the 3700 and upwards series vehicles were originally TO's and TTO's - Third Open (2+1 seating - became SO's when Second Class abolished) and Third Tourist Open (2+2 seating - became TSO's).
     
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